Bottled water and no smoking ...

Our own teliot has a good article about the casino scene in Macau, titled Bottled water and no smoking ....

I too have noticed there is hardly any drinking of alcohol in Macau. Smoking seems more welcome in the old Stanley Ho casinos.

Even better than bottled water, I would give out sturdy water bottles to players and make available convenient refilling stations.

Quote: Wizard

Even better than bottled water, I would give out sturdy water bottles to players and make available convenient refilling stations.

One thing I really like in some of the SoCal casinos that I don't see in Vegas is the self-serve beverage stations. Are they so scared of people walking in off the street, grabbing a soda that costs them pennies, and leaving?

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Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I think you find them practically everywhere but Vegas.

We have them in PA. As to in LV it may be they indeed don't want the rif-raff that would wonder in off the street.

Quote: Venthus

One thing I really like in some of the SoCal casinos that I don't see in Vegas is the self-serve beverage stations. Are they so scared of people walking in off the street, grabbing a soda that costs them pennies, and leaving?

I believe, but am not 100% sure, that servers in Las Vegas are in a union. Providing self service beverages would kill their tips. Even if they aren't unionized, they would still throw a fit. I'm guessing that's why you don't see self service in Las Vegas.

ZCore13

Self service pop machines exist in Harrington, DE & Charles Town, WV as well as back around Seattle (at least Muckleshoot, not entirely sure about the others). I really enjoy them, can get some Coke while perusing the tables.

I've never seen them anywhere in AC, Sands PA, Mohegan Sun or Foxwoods - except they ARE in the bingo hall at Foxwoods.

Quote: Zcore13

I believe, but am not 100% sure, that servers in Las Vegas are in a union.

If I recall, and am putting together the pieces correctly, it's something like all but three of the large casinos in Vegas have unionized service staff... and, of those three, only the Cosmo has been making moves to unionize, which is partly related to all the demonstrating around it. (Might be off on specifics.)

Guess it's good to know that nowhere in Vegas does that, and pretty much everywhere other than Vegas/Connecticut does it... saves the trouble of checking.

In Washington they won't let you walk out of the casino with a soda.....security guards at exits will ask you to discard it prior to your departure. It is like trying to walk into a sports stadium with your own beverage, but in reverse!

Quote: Zcore13

I believe, but am not 100% sure, that servers in Las Vegas are in a union. Providing self service beverages would kill their tips. Even if they aren't unionized, they would still throw a fit. I'm guessing that's why you don't see self service in Las Vegas.

ZCore13

I believe some are and some are not, generally speaking the older casinos once under OC control and those that were once purchased with a Teamster Pension Loan most likely to be organized.

Quote: Paradigm

In Washington they won't let you walk out of the casino with a soda.....security guards at exits will ask you to discard it prior to your departure. It is like trying to walk into a sports stadium with your own beverage, but in reverse!

Had that problem with trying to take an ice cream cone out of a buffet-- so I decided to sit back down and finish it. They already cleaned up my table and gave it to somebody else by the time I got back. They decided I should go back to the counter to get a new receipt for the table so they wouldn't think I was sneaking in.

I ended up deciding to stick around and munch on fruit for a while longer.

The non smoking environment is a new development in Macau. Only 3 years ago the reverse was the case - mostly smoking areas with only smaller areas of non smoking tables.

I have just been to Singapore where the main floor at Marina Bay Sands is a smoking area, and the non-smoking area is a floor above and a much smaller area, probably 30% of the smoking area. Its an interesting situation as the rest of Singapore is almost totally smoke free.

I played golf once with a guy who was in security at Resort World Sentosa, Singapore. He said that the Asia customers are not the same as you would find in Las Vegas, USA and other Western countries. Asian gamblers will eat but not drink (alcohol) and even then prefer cheaper simple food rather than expensive restaurant type food. They would rather keep the money for wagering. Its all about casinos knowing their customers needs.

I would not agree that alcohol is almost unavailable in Macau casinos. Most of them have bars and or restaurants (Sands Macau for example has live shows and music every night in their bar area), but they are not heavily patronised given the number of punters at the casino.

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

I think you find them practically everywhere but Vegas.

As I recall, they don't have them in the Indian casinos around San Diego either. The M used to have them, but removed them after a year or two. It wouldn't surprise me if they were under a lot of pressure to do so from the restaurants and maybe the culinary union.

One thing I like about the Grand Canyon is they forbid selling bottled water in the stores. Instead, there are plenty of refilling stations, with fresh spring water. The same idea I think could be applied to casinos, where they must go through ungodly amounts of bottled waters.

Casinos are deemed as a service industry, not self-service.
Just as with any other business, they have to do the fine balancing act of minimizing expense while still maximizing revenue.


For the beverage department, self-serve stations can be both good and bad.
The good part is that it helps to alleviate service complaints during periods of high business volume.
The bad part is that it means lost service opportunities for the staff.

For the casinos, self-service stations are BAD.
They have hotels to keep players on property.
They have restaurants for the same reason.
Every effort should be made to keep the money as close as possible to that gaming table or slot machine. If an individual leaves the table/machine in order to get their own drink, NO "action" is taking place.

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Quote: Wizard

As I recall, they don't have them in the Indian casinos around San Diego either.

Out of the ones I've been to in the San Diego-ish area that I remember:

Palms Springs region: No, with the exception of Spotlight 29 which has one tucked in a far corner opposite the entrance.
San Manuel: No, but they do have push carts that roam around. Been refused for not actively playing.
Pechanga: No, but they do have push carts that roam around.
Pala: Yes, in three distinct places, two near restrooms. (Water in, water out...)
Pauma: Yes, far side from the entrance, around a wall.
Harrah's Rincon: No.
Valley View: Yes, a single double-sided by the entrance to the non-smoking section. Bonus points for having the only non-caffeinated diet soda I've seen at any casino.

Quote: rob45

Casinos are deemed as a service industry, not self-service.
Just as with any other business, they have to do the fine balancing act of minimizing expense while still maximizing revenue.

For the beverage department, self-serve stations can be both good and bad.

A stop at a casino tends to end when one of my party has hit their limit regarding any number of factors-- I enjoy the BJ at the Silverton, but one of my friends hates the games there. Sitting there, watching the aquarium with a drink (pilfered from me, or another of my party) goes a long way towards extending our play. When she gets bored... time to move on.

Keeping not-actively-playing members of a group in a positive mood is important too. Making them go thirsty doesn't help, despite how often we hear 'sorry, we can only give drinks to active players'.

Having been to most of the casinos in the US, you will find the drink station to be common in the Midwest and also on the riverboat casinos. They are rare on either coast.

Quote: Venthus

One thing I really like in some of the SoCal casinos that I don't see in Vegas is the self-serve beverage stations. Are they so scared of people walking in off the street, grabbing a soda that costs them pennies, and leaving?

The Hollywood in Perryville, MD is a convenient rest-stop (with clean restrooms) right off I-95 and has free self-service soda. It's nice to take a break from driving to play a few hands and then carry on.

I'm definitely pro soda machine since that's what I'm used to in the Midwest. Tunica doesn't really have them either except at Hollywood and Sam's Town.

Quote: Venthus

A stop at a casino tends to end when one of my party has hit their limit regarding any number of factors-- I enjoy the BJ at the Silverton, but one of my friends hates the games there. Sitting there, watching the aquarium with a drink (pilfered from me, or another of my party) goes a long way towards extending our play. When she gets bored... time to move on.

Keeping not-actively-playing members of a group in a positive mood is important too. Making them go thirsty doesn't help, despite how often we hear 'sorry, we can only give drinks to active players'.

I completely understand, and to an extent agree with, your perspective.
I do not agree with the policy of serving "only active players"; however, I believe a distinction should be made as to what contributes to the casino's bottom line, and what detracts from it.

Provided it does not prove to be a detriment, I see little reason why a casino should have a problem with keeping "inactive guests" happy.
Many is the time when I have had the management call the front desk to allow someone else into my room. It doesn't matter if the other individual is "an active player" or not; my action has paid the expense.
Or the times I ask for "dinner for 4". They do not care if my associates are gambling, as my comp value is determined by my theoretical contribution to the casino.
I fully realize that the issue becomes significantly more complicated in regards to drink service.

No matter how trivial it may seem, drinks are an expense. More importantly, the service itself is an expense.
The issue concerns who is actually paying those expenses, and this is an area where I feel that a further assessment is warranted by "both sides of the fence".
I feel that drink service could justifiably be defined as a form of comp value.
If I am a high-roller who secures a private game, my nongambling "sidekicks" may get away with taking advantage of every possible amenity. The action has paid the expense.
If I am the low-limit player, $5 blackjack as an example, then I should not expect the casino to cover the expense incurred as a result of no contributions by my nongambling "guests".
Drink expense, and the service expense that comes with it, has to be paid. As with any other business, the casino should minimize the probability that they are the party covering the cost.

Please assume the comparison of the high-roller playing a $100 minimum table vs. the player on the $5 table. To provide benefit of the doubt, we'll say the "high-roller" rarely bets above the minimum, and we'll even give the $5 bettor a $10 average. Though it seldom happens, we'll assume same rules (house advantage), same amount of wagers placed within a given timeframe, and same abatement levels.
If the casino has a .5% edge, assumes 75 wagers per hour, and is willing to "give back" 15% of expected value, here's what we get:
$100 x .005 x 75 = $37.50 expected value, $37.50 x .15 = $5.63 "comp" value earned in 1 hour
$10 x .005 x 75 = $3.75 that the house expects to make from the player in 1 hour, and $3.75 x .15 = $.56 (56 cents) the player has earned in comp value in that hour.
Clearly, the point will be reached sooner, rather than later, that the casinos cannot support those individuals not playing. This is why if I expect my friends to enjoy the provided amenities simply so I can play, the casino should have every right to determine if my action is worth it, rather than give a "free pass" to my buddies who say "It's OK, I'm with him. You're making money from him, and if I'm not happy, he's not happy."

So, let's say in order to still keep the business of the lower-limit players who do not "contribute enough" to cover the service expenses of their nongambling dates/associates/sidekicks/buddies or whatever else the case may be, the casino decides to install a self-service drink station.
Surely, this will mean that the problem of covering service expense is alleviated, and initially it does appear to be a brilliant idea with several benefits.
After all, server wages are no longer part of the equation, and how much can a Coke or bottled water cost, right?
The person who doesn't believe in tipping a waitress doesn't have to worry about looking like a you-know-what.
The person who lost his money for the day may be waiting for his friend (who is still gambling). He might normally be a very generous tipper, but he's flat broke. The self-serve station allows him to "save face".
The person who, for whatever reason, does not like the waitress on duty now has the ability to service him/her self.
Some beverage directors (mistakenly) believe it relieves pressure on the wait staff, potentially reducing the amount of waitresses needed, which translates to lower service costs.
Some waitresses mistakenly believe a self-serve station gives them an excuse to quit delivering Cokes to the person who has never tipped them.
And there are several other "benefits to all" that a self-serve station can provide.

None of this changes the sole reason why the casino is there in the first place. The sole purpose of a casino is to have people wager on an outcome, with the house having the odds in its favor. The house is not there to break even, and it is not there to lose money. The greater the amount of the wager placed, the greater the chance that the house will thrive. If the house suffers from a deficiency of high wagers, it must increase the number of wagers placed by offering lower limits, and do everything possible to maximize the number of wagers placed within a given timeframe.

This should be common business sense, but I cannot imagine any casino wanting to offer the player an opportunity to stop wagering in order to get a drink.
Yes, players are human beings. They gotta stop and eat. They gotta go to the restroom. They gotta get some sleep for the night. But they should not have to get up from the table to get a drink, nor should the astute casino executive provide that opportunity.

FWIW, I routinely visit twelve casinos in my region. Three of them offered a self-serve beverage station at one time or another, and all three no longer have them. At one of those casinos, the beverage director who had the "brilliant idea" is no longer employed with the company.

I think that 95%+ of the patrons are honest gamblers, not passers through trying to grab a drink for free. Table service and slot services can be very slow, prompting you to stay at your slot machine and wait for water or soft drinks.

A soft drink costs about $.013 / oz. The 8 oz cup costs about five cents, and a straw 2 cents, so each drink dispensed is 17 cents.

You have a happy, hydrated patron now, who wants to gamble. It's not a huge cost. If the average player is plugging away at a slot machine at $1.00/spin, that money is made back in about 10 seconds.

We've said it here a hundred times. Vegas has no free
drink stations because the homeless would come in and
abuse them. They'd drain them in 20min. Ever see a
homeless person on Indian casino property? You never
will, either.

Quote: Venthus

Out of the ones I've been to in the San Diego-ish area that I remember:

Palms Springs region: No, with the exception of Spotlight 29 which has one tucked in a far corner opposite the entrance.
San Manuel: No, but they do have push carts that roam around. Been refused for not actively playing.
Pechanga: No, but they do have push carts that roam around.
Pala: Yes, in three distinct places, two near restrooms. (Water in, water out...)
Pauma: Yes, far side from the entrance, around a wall.
Harrah's Rincon: No.
Valley View: Yes, a single double-sided by the entrance to the non-smoking section. Bonus points for having the only non-caffeinated diet soda I've seen at any casino.

Rincon has or at least used to have at least 1 a few months back.

Quote: EvenBob

Ever see a homeless person on Indian casino property? You never will, either.

I saw one at Harrah's Rincon. He was in the parking lot begging for bus money to get back to San Diego. I asked him why he was there and he said Harrah's threw him out and he had no bus money. It is possible he wasn't homeless but he looked and smelled like he was. Drunk too.

Quote: Keyser

Having been to most of the casinos in the US, you will find the drink station to be common in the Midwest and also on the riverboat casinos. They are rare on either coast.

Could have fooled me.

Almost all of the many tribal casinos in Oregon and Wasingington have free self-serve coffee, water and soft-drinks.

Quote: MrV

Could have fooled me.

Almost all of the many tribal casinos in Oregon and Wasingington have free self-serve coffee, water and soft-drinks.

What he said. Was common, and a big change from my normal Vegas haunts.

Quote: MrV

Almost all of the many tribal casinos in Oregon and Wasingington have free self-serve coffee, water and soft-drinks.

At the one tribal casino I went to in Idaho they did as well.

Quote: bigfoot66

Rincon has or at least used to have at least 1 a few months back.

Do you have any idea where it was approximately? I'm curious now.

Quote: Wizard

I saw one at Harrah's Rincon. He was in the parking lot begging for bus money to get back to San Diego. I asked him why he was there and he said Harrah's threw him out and he had no bus money. It is possible he wasn't homeless but he looked and smelled like he was. Drunk too.

So did you help him out with a no refund bus ticket? I don't understand the need to interact if you have no intention of getting involved in an awful situation such as being broke in a casino parking lot would be.

Quote: boymimbo

The 8 oz cup costs about five cents, and a straw 2 cents, so each drink dispensed is 17 cents.
.

I think even a cup with a logo is less than five cents and for sure straws are less than two cents unless sealed with a logo paper wrapping which I doubt is the case.

M had free coffee and soft drink dispensers for a bit, then they pulled them.

Quote: EvenBob

We've said it here a hundred times. Vegas has no free
drink stations because the homeless would come in and
abuse them. They'd drain them in 20min. Ever see a
homeless person on Indian casino property? You never
will, either.

Doesn't have to be just homeless. A Burger King a few miles from my parent's house had to rip out the refill station. The apartment complex adjacent to it was borderline section-8 and people were coming in and filling up. Some even brought 1 gal jugs to fill.

Then they wonder why so few businesses will open in their neighborhood.

In addition to the other factors mentioned, I think the higher-end Vegas places want to present a classy, high service atmosphere. Part of the experience they are selling is the illusion that the customer is part of a wealthy elite with plenty of money to throw around. That's a big part of why they make the casino itself so luxurious. Putting self-service drink stations in, say, the Bellagio, would clash with this illusion. Far better to have a beautiful woman delivering the drinks.

Quote: boymimbo

A soft drink costs about $.013 / oz. The 8 oz cup costs about five cents, and a straw 2 cents, so each drink dispensed is 17 cents.

I just checked what it costs for us (McDonald's). 16oz cup $0.034, lid $0.0121, straw $0.0057. Must have used an old price as that doesn't add up to $0.0461 which is listed as our current paper cost. $0.1028 is listed as the food cost for 12oz of coke (including ice). Total for For a 12oz cup of coke: $0.1489.

Quote: miplet

Total for For a 12oz cup of coke: $0.1489.

1.5 cents to produce and what does it sell for.
Haven't been in a McD in 10 years.

15 cents, not 1.5 cents.

Quote: Wizard

I saw one at Harrah's Rincon. He was in the parking lot begging for bus money to get back to San Diego. I asked him why he was there and he said Harrah's threw him out and he had no bus money. It is possible he wasn't homeless but he looked and smelled like he was. Drunk too.

Ahhh, so we HAVE met before.

Quote: thecesspit

15 cents, not 1.5 cents.

I was up late last night, so shoot me..

Quote: EvenBob

I was up late last night, so shoot me..

No chance, you've got the guns down there, and I'm not sure I can shoot straight. And I'm not willing to take the bet you can't :)

$1.29 for a medium coke -> profit = $1.14. Of course there's your labour (minimal) and the other overheads the business has (mariginal), so they are making a tidy profit out of every coke sold.

Quote: EvenBob

1.5 cents to produce and what does it sell for.
Haven't been in a McD in 10 years.

$1.00 for any size. The 30 oz one costs us $0.2982 ($0.2034 food, $0.0948 paper)
Edit to Add: these are for Coke. Sprite is slightly more at $0.2146 food and HiC $0.1663.

Quote: thecesspit

Of course there's your labour (minimal) and the other overheads the business has (mariginal), so they are making a tidy profit out of every coke sold.

Theatre concession stands make more. Don't forget
how much room the ice takes up in a cup, you're
paying for a lot of cold water.

Quote: EvenBob

Theatre concession stands make more. Don't forget
how much room the ice takes up in a cup, you're
paying for a lot of cold water.

God, yes. $7.00 for a tiny coke and a scoop of popcorn the other day. The Imax must turn a profit, as hardly any of their feature shows have spare seats.

Quote: thecesspit

God, yes. $7.00 for a tiny coke and a scoop of popcorn the other day. .

Which cost them about a quarter. All their profit
comes from the concession stand. They buy the
corn in 100lb bags and the yellow goo they put on it
by the 5gal pail.

Quote: EvenBob

Which cost them about a quarter. All their profit
comes from the concession stand. They buy the
corn in 100lb bags and the yellow goo they put on it
by the 5gal pail.

The butter style topping actually comes in a large plastic bag inside a cardboard box. It is solid at room temperature so they have warmers you put the current box in and it has a slot for the next box so that it will be ready to go.

Quote: bigfoot66

The butter style topping actually comes in a large plastic bag inside a cardboard box. It is solid at room temperature so they have warmers you put the current box in and it has a slot for the next box so that it will be ready to go.

It used to come in 5gal plastic bottles and they
would transfer it to gallon jugs with a funnel.
But that was years ago. Butter style, that's
funny.

Quote: EvenBob

It used to come in 5gal plastic bottles and they
would transfer it to gallon jugs with a funnel.
But that was years ago. Butter style, that's
funny.

About as funny as that stuff KFC calls butter. "Buttery Spread?" Give me a break!

McDonald's used real butter on their hotcakes as late as the 1980s, no more.

Quote: miplet

$1.00 for any size. The 30 oz one costs us $0.2982 ($0.2034 food, $0.0948 paper)
Edit to Add: these are for Coke. Sprite is slightly more at $0.2146 food and HiC $0.1663.

Sprite is more?

I always ask for a "no ice" drink everywhere I go. It's gonna be cold going down, I don't need ice getting in the way of the drink.

but then again I don't drink alcohol so I guess it doesn't really matter.

You would assume that Mickey Macs has the best price points in the world when it comes to buying Coke from Coca-Cola Inc and on its cup and straw suppliers so $.17 might be the correct cost that a casino would pay for a cup of its beverages.

Even if 100 bums came into each casino to grab 5 drinks a day, you're looking at a cost of about $85/day or $30,000/year in free giveaways, small change to a strip casino, and I would assume security would figure out who these people were pretty quickly and stop them at the door.

So I have no problems with casinos offering the drink machines - it's pretty convenient given the slow service at some casinos, especially if they put their drink machines near washrooms because you can take your urinary break and grab a drink at the same time.