Looking for feedback on WMS products from G2E
Does anyone recall looking at their games. What is their reputation like with the actual casino's? Would you expect to see more or less of their games versus other "slot" companies?
Management looks to be grossly overpaid but thats never black and white and creates opportunities for shareholder activism.
I think next year I will attend G2E as I am adding long/short gaming ideas to my cons. discretionary investments.
Any info is appreciated and if consulting on gaming trends is your business I would be willing to discuss compensation for specific projects or proprietary research (not looking for non public info) you are willing to sell.
Another thing is that WMS is branching out to the Internet, putting their games on Facebook in at least two places that I know of -- Jackpot Party Casino and Lucky Cruise -- to entice players into playing "the real thing" when they get to a casino. Is this a good thing? I couldn't tell you, but to me it shows diversification and willingness to experiment.
Just yesterday I was looking at a video from this year's G2E where they were demonstrating a new game, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory. I will definitely give this one a shot when it gets to my casinos.
If any of this means anything stock-market-wise, I have no idea; it's just one slot player's opinions and observations.
It seems to be an unfortunate trend with new video poker games, to have an aspect which prevents the general public from analyzing the game without information that only the game designer/manufacturer knows -- making them almost as covert as slot machines.
\Quote: JB
It seems to be an unfortunate trend with new video poker games, to have an aspect which prevents the general public from analyzing the game without information that only the game designer/manufacturer knows -- making them almost as covert as slot machines.
I believe that you're equal to the task. It seems like it would be the Pay * Probability of a Hand * Probability of any winning hand following * Probability of any winning hand following * Probability of any winning hand following to get to the 10x level.
I guess you would have to know the specifics of the Free Hand thing for that part, though.
Quote: Mission146I guess you would have to know the specifics of the Free Hand thing for that part, though.
Exactly. Without the free ride probabilities, you cannot analyze the game.
Quote: Scotty71I'll start with the disclaimer that I just recently got long this stock. Over the last year it has been a bad performer with very choppy cash flow. What is appealing is the overall valuation which sits below 5x enterprise value and management is right in my back yard. The fact that the own the PRICE IS RIGHT & WIZARD OF OZ games licenses seemed too coincidental to pass up & any meaningful growth could cause a nice pop
Does anyone recall looking at their games. What is their reputation like with the actual casino's? Would you expect to see more or less of their games versus other "slot" companies?
Management looks to be grossly overpaid but thats never black and white and creates opportunities for shareholder activism.
I think next year I will attend G2E as I am adding long/short gaming ideas to my cons. discretionary investments.
Any info is appreciated and if consulting on gaming trends is your business I would be willing to discuss compensation for specific projects or proprietary research (not looking for non public info) you are willing to sell.
I'm put WMS on my watch list, although I'm a bit leery of entering into new positions at this time until the election is sorted out and I have more confidence in the economy in general. I'm also not in tune with their business model, versus for example a company like SHFL, which is simpler and makes sense to me. So I can't provide any good information on WMS as a company although I can on their games- which I like! I enjoy playing slots and I find that most of the machines I play are WMS- it's pretty strange actually that when I "make my rounds", most are WMS. WMS seems to be fairly innovative in establishing different platforms, such as their "Colossal Reels" games:
http://www.wms.com/Games/Video/InnovationSeries/colossalreels/Pages/default.aspx
Or Money Burst:
http://www.wms.com/Games/CentralDetermination/moneyburst/Pages/default.aspx
There seems to be this trend of having bigger/more complex/more "entertaining" experiences and I question where the "line" is between a good performer and something that's just trendy and burns out quickly. IGT seems to be putting out a lot of product like that- for example their "Dark Knight" game which came and went at one of the casinos I frequent. I hope WMS doesn't go this route, and so far, they don't seem to be. As a player, I want to be entertained, but I also want a chance at actually winning something!
Regarding their licenses, they also have Monopoly which I think is a great license. They also seem to be good at taking a particular brand and using it in multiple platforms. Their G+ Deluxe games also seem to be doing quite well and are now casino staples:
http://www.wms.com/Games/Video/GPlusDeluxe/Pages/default.aspx
All in all, I really like their games and feel they tend to offer fairly balanced game play.
They have some really strong product, including the must haves like Wizard of Oz and the Zeus games. I also think their "Major/Minor" games (G+?) are going to take off, if they haven't already. The Wonka slots are going to be a huge hit, IMO. Knowing absolutely nothing else about their business, I would rate "BUY."
Quote: FarFromVegasMy husband was in Vegas for 6 days, and the only slot machine he would play was Zeus II by WMS until we were at LVH and couldn't find one, so he played Tarzan, which was an Aristocrat and he didn't like it. He found the Zeus II at every casino and stayed with it.
If your husband likes Zeus II that much, you could possibly inform him that that's now available as PC software (play money gambling). But be warned it might make him too focused on the computer at home...haha
Quote: JBI took brief notes on one of their video poker games they presented. It was called Winning Streak Poker, which is basically Multi-Strike Poker in reverse. The top (4th) level has a 10x multiplier; the 3rd level has a 5x multiplier; the 2nd level has a 2x multiplier, and the first level has a 1x multiplier. Each winning hand you get is pushed up towards the 10x level. So if you hit a Royal Flush on the first hand, and get Jacks or Better on your next 3 hands, the Royal Flush gets the 10x multiplier. (In Multi-Strike, the Royal would get the 1x multiplier.) There are free rides offered too, but they weren't called that; I think they called it Free Hand or something.
It seems to be an unfortunate trend with new video poker games, to have an aspect which prevents the general public from analyzing the game without information that only the game designer/manufacturer knows -- making them almost as covert as slot machines.
Yeah it's definitely unfortunate. But at some point, I would think WMS may release the data if someone like the Wizard requested it since he would publicize the game. Do you recall how many credits wagered per hand? Is it 20 (4x5) like multistrike? Given the multipliers I don't see this being likely.
Quote: tringlomaneYeah it's definitely unfortunate. But at some point, I would think WMS may release the data if someone like the Wizard requested it since he would publicize the game. Do you recall how many credits wagered per hand? Is it 20 (4x5) like multistrike? Given the multipliers I don't see this being likely.
Yes, it was 20 credits (5 per line). The free ride probability has a relatively significant impact on the return, therefore decreasing the free ride probabilities a bit to make up for the bigger multipliers isn't out of the question. Plus, the fact that the levels are sort of played in reverse order might mean they didn't have to tweak them all that much. For example, in Multi-Strike you just want any win on the first level so that you can get to the second level. In this game you'll want the biggest win (but a win) on the first hand, and then any win you can get on the other three to try to get that first hand up to the 10x multiplier.
Quote: FarFromVegasMy husband was in Vegas for 6 days, and the only slot machine he would play was Zeus II by WMS until we were at LVH and couldn't find one, so he played Tarzan, which was an Aristocrat and he didn't like it. He found the Zeus II at every casino and stayed with it.
Thank you- Hopefully that kind of brand loyalty is a growing trend for WMS. I appreciate the information.
Quote: JBI took brief notes on one of their video poker games they presented. It was called Winning Streak Poker, which is basically Multi-Strike Poker in reverse. The top (4th) level has a 10x multiplier; the 3rd level has a 5x multiplier; the 2nd level has a 2x multiplier, and the first level has a 1x multiplier. Each winning hand you get is pushed up towards the 10x level. So if you hit a Royal Flush on the first hand, and get Jacks or Better on your next 3 hands, the Royal Flush gets the 10x multiplier. (In Multi-Strike, the Royal would get the 1x multiplier.) There are free rides offered too, but they weren't called that; I think they called it Free Hand or something.
Seems complicated but I dont really get all the bonus rounds etc... The potential big payout seems enticing. Do you think the game is too intimidating for first timers from a decision making standpoint or is it a case of just pressing one button and you gets what you gets? Thank you for your input.
Quote: teddysIs Williams the same as BALLY'S? I recall they were the same pinball manufacturer...not sure if it's the same with slots.
They have some really strong product, including the must haves like Wizard of Oz and the Zeus games. I also think their "Major/Minor" games (G+?) are going to take off, if they haven't already. The Wonka slots are going to be a huge hit, IMO. Knowing absolutely nothing else about their business, I would rate "BUY."
Not sure about bally's but they owned Williams ( think defender arcade game etc..) They spun off Midway a few years back and shut down the pinball biz because it was a money loser... or at least it became a very small focus of the company. But yes to pinball they invented the tilt device back in the 40's or 50's
Thanks for the input on the strength of their products.. I never said it was a good buy ... it might be a goodbye money, house, car etc... In my biz if you cant make a decision without 40% of the info at hand you will move too slow.
Quote: TheBigPaybakI'm put WMS on my watch list, although I'm a bit leery of entering into new positions at this time until the election is sorted out and I have more confidence in the economy in general. I'm also not in tune with their business model, versus for example a company like SHFL, which is simpler and makes sense to me. So I can't provide any good information on WMS as a company although I can on their games- which I like! I enjoy playing slots and I find that most of the machines I play are WMS- it's pretty strange actually that when I "make my rounds", most are WMS. WMS seems to be fairly innovative in establishing different platforms, such as their "Colossal Reels" games:
http://www.wms.com/Games/Video/InnovationSeries/colossalreels/Pages/default.aspx
Or Money Burst:
http://www.wms.com/Games/CentralDetermination/moneyburst/Pages/default.aspx
There seems to be this trend of having bigger/more complex/more "entertaining" experiences and I question where the "line" is between a good performer and something that's just trendy and burns out quickly. IGT seems to be putting out a lot of product like that- for example their "Dark Knight" game which came and went at one of the casinos I frequent. I hope WMS doesn't go this route, and so far, they don't seem to be. As a player, I want to be entertained, but I also want a chance at actually winning something!
Regarding their licenses, they also have Monopoly which I think is a great license. They also seem to be good at taking a particular brand and using it in multiple platforms. Their G+ Deluxe games also seem to be doing quite well and are now casino staples:
http://www.wms.com/Games/Video/GPlusDeluxe/Pages/default.aspx
All in all, I really like their games and feel they tend to offer fairly balanced game play.
Thank you very much. I'll put out my results (targets, catalyst.. etc) when I get a better feel. SHFL has outperformed and from memory has better margins and I would buy it in a second if I thought table games were going to take up more real estate on the floor.
FWIW I think the election wont have too big effect on the markets but I understand being patient as it could be very good or bad to certain sectors depending on the outcome. I short broad indexes and weak sectors in lieu of holding cash given the crappy T Bill and Money Market rates.
Quote: Scotty71Seems complicated but I dont really get all the bonus rounds etc... The potential big payout seems enticing. Do you think the game is too intimidating for first timers from a decision making standpoint or is it a case of just pressing one button and you gets what you gets? Thank you for your input.
It's not that complicated. If you've ever played Multi-Strike, this is basically the same thing. There are no bonus rounds or anything terribly fancy. You bet 5 coins on each of 4 hands, 20 coins total, but you might not get to play all four of the hands. They are played one at a time; if you get a win on the first one then you play the second one; if you win on the second one you play the third one; if you win on the third one you play the fourth one. Sometimes you get a free ride which lets you proceed to the next hand even if you don't win on the current one.
Quote: JBIt's not that complicated. If you've ever played Multi-Strike, this is basically the same thing. There are no bonus rounds or anything terribly fancy. You bet 5 coins on each of 4 hands, 20 coins total, but you might not get to play all four of the hands. They are played one at a time; if you get a win on the first one then you play the second one; if you win on the second one you play the third one; if you win on the third one you play the fourth one. Sometimes you get a free ride which lets you proceed to the next hand even if you don't win on the current one.
If I see one locally I will make it a point to play. It's funny I can play craps for hours- press/ regression/hedge all makes perfect sense BUT something about the crazy slots and the multi line payouts... I never have figured out my I've won on the rare occasion it happens. Your explanation above makes it much more clear. thank you JB.
Quote: TheBigPaybak
Regarding their licenses, they also have Monopoly which I think is a great license. They also seem to be good at taking a particular brand and using it in multiple platforms. Their G+ Deluxe games also seem to be doing quite well and are now casino staples:
http://www.wms.com/Games/Video/GPlusDeluxe/Pages/default.aspx
All in all, I really like their games and feel they tend to offer fairly balanced game play.
I saw they signed KISS, one of my concerns is the cost of licensing... It can be a double edge sword. Could you imagine what would have happened to an "OJ SIMPSON" - "Marv Albert" branded game.
Quote: JBI took brief notes on one of their video poker games they presented. It was called Winning Streak Poker, which is basically Multi-Strike Poker in reverse. The top (4th) level has a 10x multiplier; the 3rd level has a 5x multiplier; the 2nd level has a 2x multiplier, and the first level has a 1x multiplier. Each winning hand you get is pushed up towards the 10x level. So if you hit a Royal Flush on the first hand, and get Jacks or Better on your next 3 hands, the Royal Flush gets the 10x multiplier. (In Multi-Strike, the Royal would get the 1x multiplier.) There are free rides offered too, but they weren't called that; I think they called it Free Hand or something.
It seems to be an unfortunate trend with new video poker games, to have an aspect which prevents the general public from analyzing the game without information that only the game designer/manufacturer knows -- making them almost as covert as slot machines.
You can apparently play Winning Streak Poker for free online if you register for free at http://www.playerslife.com
The way the game plays though on the web isn't quite like your notes say. It is 25 credits per hand, not 20. There are NO free rides. The machine claims you get a "Free Hand" when you win, but that's BS since you paid 25 Credits to play. And the most messed up thing of all, if you win MORE than 4 hands in a row, the game sometimes forfeits your initial wins in the play money game. So lets say you win 6 hands in a row and then finally lose. Your last win is 1X multiplier, 2nd to last win is 2X, 3rd to last win is 5X, and 4th to last win is 10X. Your first and 2nd wins are sometimes worth nothing because the game didnt bank your wins (programming error??). I'm guessing this is an error in the game's streak counter, but if it isn't an error, it would also lead to the sick strategy where you trash your hand when you have all 4 spots occupied.
Quote: tringlomaneThe way the game plays though on the web isn't quite like your notes say. It is 25 credits per hand, not 20. There are NO free rides. The machine claims you get a "Free Hand" when you win, but that's BS since you paid 25 Credits to play. And the most messed up thing of all, if you win MORE than 4 hands in a row, the game sometimes forfeits your initial wins in the play money game. So lets say you win 6 hands in a row and then finally lose. Your last win is 1X multiplier, 2nd to last win is 2X, 3rd to last win is 5X, and 4th to last win is 10X. Your first and 2nd wins are sometimes worth nothing because the game didnt bank your wins (programming error??). I'm guessing this is an error in the game's streak counter, but if it isn't an error, it would also lead to the sick strategy where you trash your hand when you have all 4 spots occupied.
Interesting. Perhaps it was 25 coins on the machine at the show, instead of 20 coins. And I may very well have hit a winning hand without realizing it and just saw "Free Hand" and thought it was like a free ride. I thought sure the game at the show stopped after 4 wins though, and that it didn't make you hit Deal again in between winning hands for the same round.
I was able to play it on that website without having to register.
Quote: Scotty71Not sure about bally's but they owned Williams ( think defender arcade game etc..) They spun off Midway a few years back and shut down the pinball biz because it was a money loser... or at least it became a very small focus of the company. But yes to pinball they invented the tilt device back in the 40's or 50's
Thanks for the input on the strength of their products.. I never said it was a good buy ... it might be a goodbye money, house, car etc... In my biz if you cant make a decision without 40% of the info at hand you will move too slow.
FYI, Larry Demar was one of the main guys behind Defender and many popular pinball games. He was also the man that designed Multi-strike poker and many other games that IGT published. Besides being a brilliant guy, he is one of the nicest people I have met in the game development arena.
Quote: DRichFYI, Larry Demar was one of the main guys behind Defender and many popular pinball games. He was also the man that designed Multi-strike poker and many other games that IGT published. Besides being a brilliant guy, he is one of the nicest people I have met in the game development arena.
It just occured to me half the folks on this site might be too young to have seen standup arcade games like defender or joust... they were teaching a generation or two to feed money directly into machines. Candy cigarettes have nothing on them.
Quote: Scotty71It just occured to me half the folks on this site might be too young to have seen standup arcade games like defender or joust... they were teaching a generation or two to feed money directly into machines. Candy cigarettes have nothing on them.
I would close the bar, throw ten bucks in the box and remove a roll of quarters, and sit down at the Arkanoid machine and proceed to that final room where I could never defeat that Supreme Being or whatever it was (we called it The Hurling Head since it looks like it's puking on you.) I wanted an Arkanoid machine for the house 15 years ago but the guy who ran my dad's vending said it was hard to find one that didn't need a lot of repairs since they were so old. Digital Crack.
Quote: Scotty71Thank you very much. I'll put out my results (targets, catalyst.. etc) when I get a better feel. SHFL has outperformed and from memory has better margins and I would buy it in a second if I thought table games were going to take up more real estate on the floor.
FWIW I think the election wont have too big effect on the markets but I understand being patient as it could be very good or bad to certain sectors depending on the outcome. I short broad indexes and weak sectors in lieu of holding cash given the crappy T Bill and Money Market rates.
Great, I'll look forward to seeing your results. Regarding SHFL, I like their recurring revenue model, their management, and the potential for bringing their brands online and what benefits that may bring. Understanding their business is pretty simple and I like simple with regard to investments. Their IR section has some nice information. All of that said, I also share some concern about the table games business in general, although most people would be surprised that about 1/3 of their revenue is in slots, which is a division that's been doing well.
With regard to the election, my main concern is one of confidence: right now, I feel the country is taking on too much debt and there's no plan to address this so artificial measures are being used to keep things going. Too much uncertainty. I want to see a plan before the "music stops" or I think some of the carnage will affect good companies in the process.
Quote: Scotty71I saw they signed KISS, one of my concerns is the cost of licensing... It can be a double edge sword. Could you imagine what would have happened to an "OJ SIMPSON" - "Marv Albert" branded game.
This is where I'm just not up on the business. Currently there seems to less longevity with product although I could be wrong. For example, a bonafide hit, the original "Sex and the City" slots by IGT used to be always full- now- not so much. And I've seen it removed from a few casinos. Other titles never enjoyed that success and they're in and out before you know it: can't be good for manufacturers. Taking the KISS game for another example, do we really expect to see it around in 5 years? Lots more competition these days, always subject to the upgrade cycle, it would seem. But as I first mentioned, it's not my area of expertise so I just don't understand the business as well as I should- but at $16, WMS does seem relatively "cheap" at first glance...
Quote: TheBigPaybakThis is where I'm just not up on the business. Currently there seems to less longevity with product although I could be wrong. For example, a bonafide hit, the original "Sex and the City" slots by IGT used to be always full- now- not so much. And I've seen it removed from a few casinos. Other titles never enjoyed that success and they're in and out before you know it: can't be good for manufacturers. Taking the KISS game for another example, do we really expect to see it around in 5 years? Lots more competition these days, always subject to the upgrade cycle, it would seem. But as I first mentioned, it's not my area of expertise so I just don't understand the business as well as I should- but at $16, WMS does seem relatively "cheap" at first glance...
They are making slots that can be changed with a simple kit if it slows down. Both they are spending a lot of money on licenses. They are now changing many of The Lord of the Rings to Godfather slots.
Quote: Scotty71Thank you very much. I'll put out my results (targets, catalyst.. etc) when I get a better feel.
Just wondering if this was still something you were planning to do? Unlike other investments, I still haven't done my proper research on the company and still need to better understand the industry. I tend to invest in companies that have recurring revenue models and don't even know how that may even apply to WMS- just been too busy lately- although what draws me to them are their games. Just this weekend, I played them, lost- and still enjoyed the overall entertainment value from them- which is key, imho. Of course, I didn't lose too much on their slots and caught a straight flush in Fortune Pai Gow, putting me up substantially for the trip, so I didn't mind "playing around" a bit.
Quote: s2dbakerI picked up 200 shares off the low on Friday as well as 5 call option contracts. I'll probably sell the options today.
It's tempting around 15, although I tend to buy too soon on "turnaround" plays. Have you been following them / listening to their CCs ?
Like SHFL, I like the fact that they have little debt (SHFL actually is debt-free these days). I like their games although not sure how much of their revenue model is recurring revenue. There definitely seems to be increased Slot competition these days. A few years ago, I would see for the most part, IGT, Bally, WMS, Aristocrat. Now Konami is big, and you even see Multimedia Games, Aruze, and other players. Heck, SHFL does about 1/3 of their revenue in slots- although has yet to hit the US market- which I think would be a natural progression.
Back to the OP, I have to say that I am not a fan of these "Awesome Reels". Something about adding a 6th reel doesn't rub me right (probably just that I never win on them). :) Zeus II Hot Hot Super Respin is probably my favorite WMS game. Zeus III free spins are few and far between, but I like the expanding wilds in the free spins. I'm looking forward to trying out your video poker lineup too. My 2cents
Quote: JBI took brief notes on one of their video poker games they presented. It was called Winning Streak Poker, which is basically Multi-Strike Poker in reverse. The top (4th) level has a 10x multiplier; the 3rd level has a 5x multiplier; the 2nd level has a 2x multiplier, and the first level has a 1x multiplier. Each winning hand you get is pushed up towards the 10x level. So if you hit a Royal Flush on the first hand, and get Jacks or Better on your next 3 hands, the Royal Flush gets the 10x multiplier. (In Multi-Strike, the Royal would get the 1x multiplier.) There are free rides offered too, but they weren't called that; I think they called it Free Hand or something.
It seems to be an unfortunate trend with new video poker games, to have an aspect which prevents the general public from analyzing the game without information that only the game designer/manufacturer knows -- making them almost as covert as slot machines.
It's called obsfucation.
It is no wonder mystery features are in such heavy use, so SBG can be used so much more hiddenly. Machines used to list progressive meter details, but most don't anymore, etc. Even if someone tells you for a fact, this is how it works today, I would expect the other return to be approved the next day.
