Avatar content (split)
Quote: TigerWuProbably from all the slave descendants.
Do you think there was never slavery in the North?
And, racial diversity covers all races (not just African Americans)....
Quote: GandlerDo you think there was never slavery in the North?
There were far more slaves in the South leading up to and during the Civil War.
Quote:And, racial diversity covers all races (not just African Americans)....
Lots of Hispanics in the South, too.
PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.
Look for the good in them, if there is any, you'll see it. Nice people come in all shapes, shades, sizes. If you don't already play poker, that's a great way to meet nice people. Start playing poker. You can bluff them, check-raise them, take their money, before you know it you've met some new friends. There's way too much hate in the world, stop hating and play poker.
Thread CLOSED!!!
Quote: bobbartopI got one thing left to say, especially since I already locked this thread and nobody stopped talking.
PEOPLE ARE PEOPLE.
Look for the good in them, if there is any, you'll see it. Nice people come in all shapes, shades, sizes. If you don't already play poker, that's a great way to meet nice people. Start playing poker. You can bluff them, check-raise them, take their money, before you know it you've met some new friends. There's way too much hate in the world, stop hating and play poker.
Thread CLOSED!!!
Bobartop I didn't know you were a secret mod
Quote: TigerWuThere were far more slaves in the South leading up to and during the Civil War.
Plenty of slaves in the Indian Territory as well. Are you going to call the Cherokee "racist?"
Quote: AZDuffmanPlenty of slaves in the Indian Territory as well. Are you going to call the Cherokee "racist?"
If the moccasin fits, wear it.
Difference is, do they intentionally celebrate symbols associated with slavery and do they they have an alternative to choose instead?
Quote: rxwineIf the moccasin fits, wear it.
Difference is, do they intentionally celebrate symbols associated with slavery and do they they have an alternative to choose instead?
No idea. My symbol is about southern rock and southern culture.
Slavery ended almost 160 years ago. Get over it and get on with your life.
Quote: darkozThat's not the point. We are talking about perceptions which are difficult to convince people to change. To them the south is synonymous with racism
No, the South is now synonymous with winning college football.
People in South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri, Arkansas and eastern Texas now band together and self-identify and take pride in the SEC (South East Conference) and its football teams. Since we are not allowed to express regional pride in other ways, southerners pour an incredible amount of passion and money into SEC college football.
And we take great pleasure at being better at college football than any other region of the country. And probably the worst major college football program in America? The pantywaists of Rutgers, located in the toxic waste dump that is called New Jersey, a financially insolvent state that is known for corruption, rudeness and a miserable quality of life.
Quote: bobbartop
Thread CLOSED!!!
I'm a little surprised it hasn't been closed. Maybe the Wizard is tallying up the violators off topic for one big ban hammer massacre. There will be blood.
(Although usually he just goes after first poster to deviate)
Quote: gordonm888No, the South is now synonymous with winning college football.
People in South Carolina, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, Kentucky, Missouri, Arkansas and eastern Texas now band together and self-identify and take pride in the SEC (South East Conference) and its football teams. Since we are not allowed to express regional pride in other ways, southerners pour an incredible amount of passion and money into SEC college football.
And we take great pleasure at being better at college football than any other region of the country. And probably the worst major college football program in America? The pantywaists of Rutgers, located in the toxic waste dump that is called New Jersey, a financially insolvent state that is known for corruption, rudeness and a miserable quality of life.
Self-identification is not what perceptions of others are about.
I am certain Californians first thought of who they are is not Earthquake victims
NYC residents don't think of themselves as serious crime victims (if you just asked why not, there go your perceptions again, NYC has had a very low per capita crime rate for about 20+ years now)
If you are saying Southerners don't care if their flag is perceived as a racist statement then just say that. But recognize other people do perceive that.
Quote: AZDuffmanNo idea. My symbol is about southern rock and southern culture.
Slavery ended almost 160 years ago. Get over it and get on with your life.
No it's not.
The South lost the war almost 160 years ago. Get over it and get on with your life.
I do object to people who live in the modern South being stigmatized by other people who don't know what they are talking about.
I also ask that you understand that I perceive people who live in New Jersey in a very negative way. Especially when they are rude and insult Southerners.
Quote: darkozBobartop I didn't know you were a secret mod
I haven't seen any mods around for a couple days, so I took the liberty of delegating myself the authority. Remember that the next time you feel like inciting a near-riot around here.
Quote: rxwineI'm a little surprised it hasn't been closed. Maybe the Wizard is tallying up the violators off topic for one big ban hammer massacre. There will be blood.
If I can delegate mod authority to myself, I should be able to handle the Wizard. 3-day suspension, piece of cake. We can stay up late as we want, talk about what we want, even on a school night. It's Babs that scares me. Let me know if you see her around, I'll go back into witness protection.
Quote: unJonNothing political about this thread at all.
I don't see any mods around. Maybe we should throw a party. I'll get the booze, Dark Oz can bring some Jersey girls.
Quote: bobbartopI haven't seen any mods around for a couple days, so I took the liberty of delegating myself the authority. Remember that the next time you feel like inciting a near-riot around here.
Maybe the mods decided to join the AP exodus
Quote: darkozMaybe the mods decided to join the AP exodus
lol
Yeah, they all bought your book and they're scouring the country for plays.
Quote: bobbartoplol
Yeah, they all bought your book and they're scouring the country for plays.
Shhhh!
That's an AP secret
I am showing my age with that joke
Quote: gordonm888I sit on the board of a Southern museum and we decided to remove the Confederate flag from one of our Civil War exhibits just to to avoid being offensive.
That seems kind of odd. That's where I feel those kind of things belong.
Of course, I guess a display could be historically inaccurate if you put something where it wouldn't normally appear. Like show a rolled up Constitution in George Washington's back pocket as he crossed the Delaware.
_____
Why did George Washington cross the Delaware River?
To get to the other side.
Quote: gordonm888I was born and raised in NYC and have family in NJ and now live in the south where I have a family. I have no historic identification with what people call "the Confederate flag." I sit on the board of a Southern museum and we decided to remove the Confederate flag from one of our Civil War exhibits just to avoid being offensive. So don't preach to me.
WOW! Talk about revisionist history and "1984!" People need to learn they might not like what they learn in history.
Quote: rxwineThat seems kind of odd. That's where I feel those kind of things belong.
Of course, I guess a display could be historically inaccurate if you put something where it wouldn't normally appear. Like show a rolled up Constitution in George Washington's back pocket as he crossed the Delaware.
_____
Why did George Washington cross the Delaware River?
To get to the other side.
I agree, it is commonly said that Confederate Flags belong in museums not on state capitol buildings. And this was part of a display on a Civil War Battle between Gen. Longstreet and Gen. Burnsides. But someone (perhaps from New Jersey) made a complaint saying that the presence of the Confederate flag in the exhibit made them uncomfortable. And we caved, because we don't want the controversy about this issue to be what people think of when they see the name of our Museum. It was a business decision.
By the way, I live in East Tennessee which remained loyal to the Union during the Civil War (while the rest of Tennessee sided with the Confederacy). Almost no one in East Tennessee had slaves - mostly because of abject poverty. The battle I refer to was a Confederate army from Chattanooga invading Knoxville to attack the Union forts there. My town was the site of this battle, and the houses in existence at that time were all used as hospitals for the injured from both armies. And all the furniture in those houses was chopped up by the Confederate soldiers and burned in bonfires to keep themselves warm. Lord knows what they did to our women and to our horses.
And yet, it is now 157 years later and we are the South and we receive the un-informed disdain of DarkOz and people from New Jersey - a state that has made no contribution to American history and is best known for closing lanes on the bridges across the Hudson River as an act of political retaliation. I'm just not clear why anyone in East Tennessee should care what their perceptions are.
This thread has pretty well worked through the policy regarding expletives and has mutated into the political correctness or otherwise of avatars. I don't think that's disputed.
Though the discussion of avatars has its own merit, it's surely been dealt with before. I'll dig out a link shortly and edit this post with it.
Certain controversial avatars have been discussed in the past, and tolerance by Wizard has set the precedent. I have my own biased opinion, which I'll summarise as...
"Avatars are sometimes chosen to indicate the members' character or allegiance. If the avatar is controversial or politically ugly, then maybe that is representative of the member's real traits"
Each avatar complained about (by PM) will be examined and subject to acceptance or rejection by Wizard or his proxies. Wizard's decision will be final.
Quote: gordonm888
And yet, it is now 157 years later and we are the South and we receive the un-informed disdain of DarkOz and people from New Jersey - a state that has made no contribution to American history and is best known for closing lanes on the bridges across the Hudson River as an act of political retaliation. I'm just not clear why anyone in East Tennessee should care what their perceptions are.
I actually stated people of color I try to bring with me down south have expressed negative perceptions of the south. That's not me obviously. I am simply stating that there are people I know that have those perceptions (it should have been obvious if I was trying to get them down there I don't necessarily share those perceptions)
Unfortunately it's mostly the history of the south that's to blame. Both you and AZ keep referring to the civil war and end of slavery as the final historical nail. I find that somewhat telling of how much you truly believe in your cause!
If you truly believed the south should not be viewed as racist then why not admit it's been only 60 years since segregation was ended? Why not admit that people still live who were denied drinking at the same water fountain as people of white ethnicity?
Why not admit that within the last one hundred years there have been lynchings and KKK activities and cross burnings on homesteads of black folks?
Why are your arguments not strong enough to discuss those things as the cause of today's perceptions of "the South"?
Quote: gordonm888I agree, it is commonly said that Confederate Flags belong in museums not on state capitol buildings. And this was part of a display on a Civil War Battle between Gen. Longstreet and Gen. Burnsides. But someone (perhaps from New Jersey) made a complaint saying that the presence of the Confederate flag in the exhibit made them uncomfortable. And we caved, because we don't want the controversy about this issue to be what people think of when they see the name of our Museum. It was a business decision.
IMHO that person should have been told, "sorry you feel that way, please enjoy our other displays."
See, for every person like that, there are 10 of us who are sick and tired of someone wanting things changed because the "feel uncomfortable."
A real life example near me is a place has an old St. Louis trolley in front of it on display. For those that do not know, that is the classic streetcar you see all the time. I am not sure why it is there, probably because the old trolley line into the city is nearby. Various places display them. Well, some woman complained because it "made her uncomfortable" because her daughter or someone was killed by a car like this. So she wanted it removed. It remained so I assume they told her to get a life.
I will now take a break from this thread as suggested. Plenty of online poker to play.
Quote: beachbumbabsQuite a bit of this back and forth is at least bordering on political commentary. I request everyone take a step back on continuing this part of the discussion while we look at it. TIA.
Babs, if you mods want to take a couple more days off, relax and let me take care of this for you. Want me to put anyone on suspension specifically?
Quote: gordonm888I agree, it is commonly said that Confederate Flags belong in museums not on state capitol buildings. And this was part of a display on a Civil War Battle between Gen. Longstreet and Gen. Burnsides. But someone (perhaps from New Jersey) made a complaint saying that the presence of the Confederate flag in the exhibit made them uncomfortable. And we caved, because we don't want the controversy about this issue to be what people think of when they see the name of our Museum. It was a business decision.
By the way, I live in East Tennessee which remained loyal to the Union during the Civil War (while the rest of Tennessee sided with the Confederacy). Almost no one in East Tennessee had slaves - mostly because of abject poverty. The battle I refer to was a Confederate army from Chattanooga invading Knoxville to attack the Union forts there. My town was the site of this battle, and the houses in existence at that time were all used as hospitals for the injured from both armies. And all the furniture in those houses was chopped up by the Confederate soldiers and burned in bonfires to keep themselves warm. Lord knows what they did to our women and to our horses.
And yet, it is now 157 years later and we are the South and we receive the un-informed disdain of DarkOz and people from New Jersey - a state that has made no contribution to American history and is best known for closing lanes on the bridges across the Hudson River as an act of political retaliation. I'm just not clear why anyone in East Tennessee should care what their perceptions are.
Ever hear of Washington crossing the Delaware? The Battles of Trenton or Princeton? I'd suggest you stick to math, which you are seem to be pretty good at. Unlike American history.
Quote: darkozI actually stated people of color I try to bring with me down south have expressed negative perceptions of the south. That's not me obviously. I am simply stating that there are people I know that have those perceptions (it should have been obvious if I was trying to get them down there I don't necessarily share those perceptions)
Unfortunately it's mostly the history of the south that's to blame. Both you and AZ keep referring to the civil war and end of slavery as the final historical nail. I find that somewhat telling of how much you truly believe in your cause!
If you truly believed the south should not be viewed as racist then why not admit it's been only 60 years since segregation was ended? Why not admit that people still live who were denied drinking at the same water fountain as people of white ethnicity?
Why not admit that within the last one hundred years there have been lynchings and KKK activities and cross burnings on homesteads of black folks?
Why are your arguments not strong enough to discuss those things as the cause of today's perceptions of "the South"?
If you or your friends are visiting Knoxville, you would be welcome to stay with me at my house. I mean that, I am genuine. I don't know any other way to respond to the regional prejudice that your friends express.
I grew up in NYC, and I personally saw more racial prejudice there then when I moved to East Tennessee where I currently live. Certainly no white NY-er would visit certain black neighborhoods (out of fear) and vice versa. Public schools in NYC underwent integration in the mid- 1960s. The NYC police killed black people with impunity. So, this was not just a Southern problem. I am familiar with the history of the South, which overtly institutionalized segregation, but for many decades now it has been just that - history. That's my personal experience.
It was the Democrat Party that fought so hard to maintain segregation in the south - do you hold it against them? John F Kennedy was contemptuous of black people - do you bear a grudge against Massachusetts?
The reason we mention the Civil War is because this was a discussion about the confederate flag. Remember, my region was not slave owning, sided with the north and was invaded and pillaged by the Confederacy. But when your houses are destroyed, your wealth plundered and your women raped, it doesn't really matter why it happened or even who did it. My region bonded with the other Southern regions around us that were also pounded into the stone age by the dogs of war, and with whom we suffered through a hundred years of post-war poverty while the Northern states prospered economically. I personally don't give a damn about the Confederate flag, but I see that some other southerners (such as AZD) do and I think it comes back to the common shared experience of enduring the rape and pillage of war and the hundred years of Southern poverty that followed.
And yeah, I do know people that are scared to visit either NYC or San Francisco today because of media-fueled stereotypes of those cities. Personally, I don't consider these people to be intellectual leaders.
Look, history is filled with war, slavery, religious hatred, racial hatred, corruption and monumental unfairness. Almost all of us have had ancestors that were victimized by injustice. But when you practice hatred against a region based on historical events that occurred before most of us were born, you wind up bearing a grudge against a lot of wonderful people who are completely innocent and who could have been your friends.
Okay, I'll stop.
Quote: EvenBobAvatar? What avatar..
Dunno, but it is now 9 pages of discussion.
Quote: gordonm888I agree, it is commonly said that Confederate Flags belong in museums not on state capitol buildings. And this was part of a display on a Civil War Battle between Gen. Longstreet and Gen. Burnsides. But someone (perhaps from New Jersey) made a complaint saying that the presence of the Confederate flag in the exhibit made them uncomfortable. And we caved, because we don't want the controversy about this issue to be what people think of when they see the name of our Museum. It was a business decision.
What do you do when someone says the LACK of the Confederate flag in a display about the Civil War makes them uncomfortable?
Quote: TigerWuWhat do you do when someone says the LACK of the Confederate flag in a display about the Civil War makes them uncomfortable?
The point of a museum is to show people historical artifacts that they have probably never seen before. Honestly, at this moment in history most Americans know what a Confederate flag looks like and we can use that space to show them something else.
Our museum director also removed the 1863-period American flag as well, so we do not display the flags of either side of the conflict. I thought this was a shame, because it is an interesting flag -with the stars arranged in in two concentric circles. Most people found that flag interesting. Its a "Baby with the bathwater" situation.
Look we had a lot of discussion about this in our board meeting. Our Museum's mission is not to "engage the leading controversies of the day and effect meaningful social change." Our mission is (something like) to preserve our local historical heritage and to educate the public. We are a small museum and depend upon donations and the good will of our local community. We don't intend to be the Colin Kaepernick of small museums.
Quote: gordonm888The point of a museum
The only museums worth going to
are the big ones. Henry Ford, the
Smithsonian, The Museum of
Modern Art. Europe is crammed
with great museums.
