Need for clear DT/WoV rules.
If I make the same post on both sides, does it count as a double post?
Can the contents of PMs on one site be revealed in the other?
I'll post other questions here as they arise.
No.
No.
It should.Quote: NareedIf I make the same post on both sides, does it count as a double post?
After all, DT was created, at least in part, to provide a place for off topic stuff. I.E. If it belongs on one, it doesn't belong on the other. Posting on the wrong site will be tolerated (at least for now), but posting the same thing on both should not be.
Quote: DJTeddyBearPosting on the wrong site will be tolerated (at least for now), but posting the same thing on both should not be.
I agree. With some allowance for instances where a mistake was realized and corrected, resulting in two nearly identical posts.
Quote: DJTeddyBearIt should.
After all, DT was created, at least in part, to provide a place for off topic stuff. I.E. If it belongs on one, it doesn't belong on the other. Posting on the wrong site will be tolerated (at least for now), but posting the same thing on both should not be.
The problem is, if you want the question answered by a broader audience, you need to post it here.
Quote: Mission146I think the first part is a matter of opinion.
No.
No.
Thanks.
To be clear, I am taking Mission's answers as definitive, pending further developments from the gang in green upstairs.
Oh.Quote: Mission146Keep in mind, I never said I would not Lock the thread on the less appropriate Board, simply that I would not count it as a double post.
You mean you'll not suspend someone for this type of transgression? That makes sense - just a warning for the first offense.
Then again, asking if it's OK and getting a negative answer should act as a warning.
Not that it's entirely necessary. A month or so ago, Nareed did just this. Started identical threads on both boards. I'm gonna look for them.
I think there is a rule that the content of Private Messages is to be kept private, i.e., not shared except between the people who sent and received the message. I just noticed that when reading a PM, there are options to Reply, Forward, or Delete. Does not the forum feature to Forward a PM imply that the content is not being kept private?
It seems to me that there might be a lot of occasions when a group of members (more than two) would like to discuss something in a "semi-private" manner, perhaps by sending PMs to a distribution list or by forwarding PMs. Is that a violation of the rules here? I have encountered a number of situations where I want to share info from a PM and have no reason to think that anyone would object to having their comments shared appropriately. I have done that several times, even recently, but it may not adhere to the letter of the rules, so I guess I should have a clearer understanding.
Found it. (That didn't take long....)Quote: DJTeddyBearA month or so ago, Nareed did just this. Started identical threads on both boards. I'm gonna look for them.
WoV - Are You Happy?
DT -- Are You Happy?
Quote: DJTeddyBearOh.
You mean you'll not suspend someone for this type of transgression? That makes sense - just a warning for the first offense.
Then again, asking if it's OK and getting a negative answer should act as a warning.
Not that it's entirely necessary. A month or so ago, Nareed did just this. Started identical threads on both boards. I'm gonna look for them.
What do you mean? I said it's not a duplicate post, in my view, just that I might Lock the duplicate topic in the less appropriate Forum for that topic.
Quote: DocThis thread is not the right place for my post, of course, but I don't want to start a new one, and I have a question about the rules here. Sorry if I distract the thread briefly, and I don't think this should take long.
I'd certainly defer to Wizard for any specifics greater than what I am about to offer, but this is what I gather:
1.) If you have the other person's permission to share the contents of a PM, then you may.
2.) If you believe the permission is implied by the very nature of the PM, then that is a risk you are taking, but I should believe that most people would be reasonable about that sort of thing.
Quote: Mission146What do you mean? I said it's not a duplicate post, in my view, just that I might Lock the duplicate topic in the less appropriate Forum for that topic.
What I mean is, it seems rather strange that Nareed is asking about this.
It's almost like she is asking permission.
The reality is, she's already done this, with no apparent penalty.
Quote: DJTeddyBearWhat I mean is, it seems rather strange that Nareed is asking about this.
It's almost like she is asking permission.
The reality is, she's already done this, with no apparent penalty.
If what you are suggesting is that Nareed may engage in a habit of posting duplicate OP's both here and Diversity Tomorrow and is requesting permission to do so, then such permission being granted would be largely irrelevant. If it became a pattern, then I would simply Lock the topic here if it is not gambling-related and Lock the topic over there if it is gambling-related.
In any event, if she's making sure she can do something that she did not know whether or not she could do prior to continuing to do it, that's always appreciated.
Regarding private messages, those are supposed to be private. However, if you have a close group of friends and you think the sender of a message won't mind who it is being forwarded to, then you'll have to make a judgment call. If the original sender or recipient makes a complaint that his PM was forwarded without consent, then the forwarder will face the consequences.
Quote: WizardManagement frowns on posting the same thing in both forums.
Need I remind you a certain person with a green user name also posted similar messages (not identical) to both fora?
Quote:Regarding private messages, those are supposed to be private. However, if you have a close group of friends and you think the sender of a message won't mind who it is being forwarded to, then you'll have to make a judgment call. If the original sender or recipient makes a complaint that his PM was forwarded without consent, then the forwarder will face the consequences.
The worst possible thing in a law or in this case a rule is ambiguity. Either classify which kinds of messages can be forwarded or under what conditions they can be forwarded (say an abusive PM can be forwarded to a mod), or make an exception for disclosing PMs privately to just one person, or require prior consent for forwarding.
As it is now, it's so uncertain the forwarding button might as well read "Click here to possibly get suspended."
Quote: NareedNeed I remind you a certain person with a green user name also posted similar messages (not identical) to both fora?
The worst possible thing in a law or in this case a rule is ambiguity. Either classify which kinds of messages can be forwarded or under what conditions they can be forwarded (say an abusive PM can be forwarded to a mod), or make an exception for disclosing PMs privately to just one person, or require prior consent for forwarding.
As it is now, it's so uncertain the forwarding button might as well read "Click here to possibly get suspended."
Are you suggesting the Wizard should be banned for duplicate posts? LOL, please continue this rant because I want to see what happens next.
Quote: SonuvabishAre you suggesting the Wizard should be banned for duplicate posts? LOL, please continue this rant because I want to see what happens next.
Sometimes she acts like she owns the place.
I get it--things don't always happen exactly the same for everyone. Tough crap. This is life and this forum belongs to a guy who has helped me learn a ton of stuff about gambling. If she has so many objections to us and to the folks who help keep this place running pretty darned well, she just needs to take off and start her own board.
I think I asked Mission if he had the ball to suspend the Wizard.Quote: SonuvabishAre you suggesting the Wizard should be banned for duplicate posts? LOL, please continue this rant because I want to see what happens next.
Quote: AxelWolfI think I asked Mission if he had the ball to suspend the Wizard.
Obviously I'm not Mission, but Mike is above the rules, except that he enforces them more strictly on himself than he does on the rest of us.
Nareed has more moderator support than she will ever know or likely acknowledge. IMVHO, her resentment expressed earlier in this thread is misplaced.
Well chosen words ("moderator support"= favoritism ). In that case do you accept PayPal?Quote: beachbumbabs
Nareed has more moderator support than she will ever know or likely acknowledge. IMVHO, her resentment expressed earlier in this thread is misplaced.
Quote: RonCSometimes she acts like she owns the place
Only "sometimes"......LOL
Quote: RonCshe just needs to take off and start her own board.
There would definitely need to be double posting on her board and WoV if she did that......."crickets" comes to mind
Didn't think I would need to block the "Rules" Topic to get away from the drivel......I already block everything in "Off Topic" to avoid it.
The ability to block any Thread started by a particular Member regardless of Topic posting is humbly requested.
Quote: BeachBumBabsNareed has more moderator support than she will ever know or likely acknowledge.
And why would she have more support than any other Member here? I respect the Admin Team a great deal, but this is the sort of perceived preferential treatment towards a certain Member that is so confusing.
Quote: beachbumbabsNareed has more moderator support than she will ever know or likely acknowledge.
I don't know about that. Being suspended for thirty days for NOT having done something highly inapropriate, and perhaps illegal, strikes me as excessive.
Not to mention that no one can acknoledge what she doesn't know exists. If you are going to complain every time I don't do the impossible, you'll need a lifetime to make all your complaints.
Quote:IMVHO, her resentment expressed earlier in this thread is misplaced.
What resentment?
I did post the same poll on both sites. largely because I did not get enough data on DT (there being so few active users). Later someone also posted something on DT which had been posted on WoV, ackowledging the deed in the second post.
I'm fine with it, in both cases. And if Mike is above the rules, that's fine. But people who say "Do as I say noas I do" too foten, will find themselves being listened to with ever diminishing frequency.
Unclear rules about PMs are not a good thing. I posit that sharing a PM's contents on the board, openly and publicly, is not the same thing as doing so privately to one person or a small group. Of course depending on the kind of content.
BTW, I have forwarded what I considered to be abusive PMs to the mods (another fine reason for blocking certain people), and was not suspended for doing so. I also know of at least one other user who did the same thing also without a suspension. If rules violations by PM merit a suspension or a warning, then it is implied that one can forward such PMs to the mods. Otherwise how can there be any proof?
So there's that exception to revealing PMs, even if it's not expressely written (I forget whether it is or not). Are there other exceptions? Yes, if one has permission from the sender. That's two. I can post here any PM I sent, if it does not contain information rpovided by someone else. That's three.
Are there any more?
I don't know where the statement you made went that was directed at the moderators re: resentment. Perhaps you edited it out, perhaps it was in a different thread I read immediately before this, perhaps I was mistaken. I'll take mistaken for the moment and retract my comment referencing it, though I checked the author when I read it and it was yours.
IMO, and unless overruled, a PM can be forwarded
1. With the permission of the other person if you are not the author.
2. To more than one person if you are the author for convenience.
3. For evidence in a complaint against another member to a moderator.
I would not consider a PM forwarded as conclusive proof, because the body of a PM can be edited during the forwarding process (before sending). Same problem prior to a screenshot of a PM. But it would at least start an inquiry.
Quote: beachbumbabsI don't know where the statement you made went that was directed at the moderators re: resentment. Perhaps you edited it out, perhaps it was in a different thread I read immediately before this, perhaps I was mistaken.
I will have you know I do not edit my posts, except for grammatical errors and then only if I catch them right after posting. I do NOT EVER edit the content, meaning or implications themselves. N O T E V E R. And I resent the implication.
Quote:I'll take mistaken for the moment and retract my comment referencing it, though I checked the author when I read it and it was yours.
I think the phrase you're looking for is "Eppur si muove."
Do PMs operate the same way? If so, they should not be considered "evidence" unless the original author validates the content as it could be tampered with.
If some people would just play by the doggone rules instead of trying to find loopholes to break them, things would be better for everyone!!
Quote: NareedI will have you know I do not edit my posts, except for grammatical errors and then only if I catch them right after posting. I do NOT EVER edit the content, meaning or implications themselves. N O T E V E R. And I resent the implication.
Time for someone to relax. No one accused you or implied anything. It seems as if you feel entitled to be insulted anytime anyone says anything that you can dig through and find some kind of a possible slight in... She gave a variety of things that MIGHT have happened and basically apologized for being mistaken and you find something to "resent". I suggest looking for the good in people instead of the bad and just staying away from the bad people.
Quote: NareedNeed I remind you a certain person with a green user name also posted similar messages (not identical) to both fora?
Ok, I may have gotten this one wrong. I got thrown off by this post:
http://diversitytomorrow.com/thread/532/0/#post8432
Honestly I don't feel like delving through the muck of a flame war about prop bets (of all things) in order to determine whether I'm right or not. Therefore I withdraw the statement quoted above without qualification.
Just to be clear, though, I never suggested the Wizard should suspend himself for doing so, even had I been entirely right. Not implicitly, and most certainly not explicitly.
On the subject of double posts in WoV vs DT, we're getting different statements by different mods. I would appreciate a definitive and consistent rule on the subject.
On the matter of forwarding PMs, we're getting mixed signals too. With all due respect, what the Wizard said amounts to "Use your judgment, but if you guess wrong you'll get suspended." This seems massively unfair for what would be, by the Wizard's own wording, an error in judgment, rather than a malicious act or even a deliberate violation of the rules. No one's judgment is or can be perfect at all times.
Next we have this statement by beachbumbabs (emphasis added):
Quote:IMO, and unless overruled, a PM can be forwarded
1. With the permission of the other person if you are not the author.
2. To more than one person if you are the author for convenience.
3. For evidence in a complaint against another member to a moderator.
The rules are clear enough, but the preamble is so completely out of place it shouldn't even be there. I mean, are these the rules or mere opinion about the rules? granted it would be hard for anyone to get in trouble following these opinions, but I cannot stress enough how important clarity is in setting up rules.
Finally, I call on the mods to get together and make a decision. I've no idea if there is a hierarchy set up, or how you people decide things, but answers to questions about the rules need to be consistent as well as clear. I asked two simple questions and I feel all I've gotten is a minor case of Charlie Foxtrot (here: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Charlie_Foxtrot).
The job is not black and white. Attempting to allow for vigorous debate, free speech, and minority opinions while maintaining a standard of decorum creates a lot of grey areas. My best guidance on PM's is above; if I am overruled, that's how it is. That list is my opinion and interpretation of my guidelines that have been handed down from the Wizard and in accordance with his written forum rules, which changed during your recent suspension. The rest is judgement in applying them. That's what my preamble means. And so it was necessary to provide a qualified answer.
Mission has similar guidance, and similar latitude to enforce them as he sees best. He gave you an answer that is not significantly different from the one I gave you. Face, when he returns, would likely have a similar description on how he handles PM issues. They can both speak for themselves.
Lastly, I do not think you have been presented with a Charlie Foxtrot, a SNAFU, or any other situation difficult to navigate with the use of common sense and manners. I personally do not care to be addressed as "you people" either, as that tends to be perjorative and condescending in meaning as you've written it here. Thank you.
Again, someone is trying to curry better treatment by arguing that somehow she has been mistreated all along.
Ugh. She has so much more to contribute but she'd rather push buttons and bend rules as she sees fit.
Quote: RonCUgh. She has so much more to contribute but she'd rather push buttons and bend rules as she sees fit.
I am trying to get a straight answer about the rules. I haven't gotten one yet.
So I'm asking again: If I make the same, or even similar, posts here and on DT, does it count as a double post? Please YES or NO.
If you need an explanation, here it is: There are some things I would like to post about in both fora in order to insure maximum exposure. If this is going to be a problem in any way, or is against the rules, or will piss off the mods, or is ok, I need to know beforehand so as to either proceed or refrain and avoid trouble.
Now, if you read beachbumbabs' last post, she seems to be saying I could ask her, for example, about a rule, get an answer and proceed accordingly (post, PM, whatever). But then Mike might overrule her and suspend me. That's so Byzantine it would make a Byzantine bueraucrat blush. It's also unfair, as the user would be proceeding in good faith, thinking they have the blessing of the mod and are acting withing the rules.
Therefore let's make another motion: should a user ask a mod for a specific ruling before undertaking an action, then that user cannot be suspended for that action even if the mod gets overuled 180 degrees. Seems fair to me, as the user cannot be said to be at fault.
Quote: beachbumbabsI personally do not care to be addressed as "you people" either, as that tends to be perjorative and condescending in meaning as you've written it here. Thank you.
Well, I didn't do that. I don't know how you see it, but that wasn't my intent and it wasn't what I said.
Then just ask Mike, problem solved.Quote: Nareed
Now, if you read beachbumbabs' last post, she seems to be saying I could ask her, for example, about a rule, get an answer and proceed accordingly (post, PM, whatever). But then Mike might overrule her and suspend me.
Quote: beachbumbabs
The job is not black and white. Attempting to allow for vigorous debate, free speech, and minority opinions while maintaining a standard of decorum creates a lot of grey areas. My best guidance on PM's is above; if I am overruled, that's how it is. That list is my opinion and interpretation of my guidelines that have been handed down from the Wizard and in accordance with his written forum rules, which changed during your recent suspension. The rest is judgement in applying them. That's what my preamble means. And so it was necessary to provide a qualified answer.
May I add to this/put it another way?
WoV has a "Common Law" system. This means that the basic rules are set up and when something falls in a gray area the court (ie: Wiz and various moderators) can look at the basic rules and decide how to proceed. When something major is decided you have a "precedent" case. Said precedent is then used in the future as part of the Common Law unless and until the management of the board puts forth a new rule on the situation.
FWIW I really do not understand why this needs to be beaten to death. Like many things in life if you are not sure if you should do it just be safe and don't do it because you are probably right.
Quote: AZDuffmanMay I add to this/put it another way?
WoV has a "Common Law" system. This means that the basic rules are set up and when something falls in a gray area the court (ie: Wiz and various moderators) can look at the basic rules and decide how to proceed. When something major is decided you have a "precedent" case. Said precedent is then used in the future as part of the Common Law unless and until the management of the board puts forth a new rule on the situation.
FWIW I really do not understand why this needs to be beaten to death. Like many things in life if you are not sure if you should do it just be safe and don't do it because you are probably right.
The phrase in the UK is barrack room lawyer...
Reminds me of a part of the book Hawaii by James Michener (a great book, I might add). There a missionary was working on a translation of the Ten Commandments into the native Hawaiian language. When he got to the one about "no adultery" the translator asked, "Which kind of adultery?" The missionary responded "There is more than one kind?" The translator then said, "Oh, yes. We have hundreds of them. If we list each way one can commit adultery then it will only give people ideas to try the ones they didn't know about."
Again, posting the same topic at both forums is frowned up. I admit I started a thread about my prop calculator at DT while also writing about it at WoV. That calculator is the product of several years of work and felt the response at WoV was overly critical so I moved discussion to DT temporarily. However, I never posted the exact same message at both sites, as near as I can remember, and the subject matter was gambling related.
However, if anybody wishes to press charges of me breaking my own rules, please do so. If just one member officially complains then I will self-ban myself to show that I am not above my own rules.
Quote: WizardReminds me of a part of the book Hawaii by James Michener (a great book, I might add).
And the replies I've been getting here remind me of an episode of Futurama
Fry: I'll be getting my hands from a robot I don't know?
Robot Devil: Almost certainly probably not.
Which, BTW, may have been a take on the story of the box that will kill "someone you don't know." One of the few good new TZ eps.
Quote:Again, posting the same topic at both forums is frowned up.
I assume you mean "frowned-upon." I take that to mean either it will get overlooked once or twice, but carry consequences if done more often; or perhaps that even one occurrence will net a warning to desist. Is this anywhere close to right, or does it mean something else entirely.
The connotation of "you people" may easily be labeled as a pejorative term, and is nearly universally understood as being such by any individual having English as the native language.Quote: NareedWell, I didn't do that. I don't know how you see it, but that wasn't my intent and it wasn't what I said.Quote: beachbumbabsI personally do not care to be addressed as "you people" either, as that tends to be perjorative and condescending in meaning as you've written it here. Thank you.
Intentions aside, what you "said" (to which Babs referred) is in the quote below.
Quote: Nareed on 03-07-2014, 2:39:50 AM (page 3, post #28 of this thread)I've no idea if there is a hierarchy set up, or how you people decide things,
Please take note: Your quotes have been modified only to the extent of emboldening any words in question for the purpose of emphasis.
Quote: NareedI assume you mean "frowned-upon." I take that to mean either it will get overlooked once or twice, but carry consequences if done more often; or perhaps that even one occurrence will net a warning to desist. Is this anywhere close to right, or does it mean something else entirely.
What is so hard about just not doing it at all? If I say there is a Three Strike policy then it will just incentivize you to do it twice.
I'm getting rather annoyed with all the drama.
Quote: Wizard
I'm getting rather annoyed with all the drama.
+1.01
Follow the rules to the best of your ability, don't look for excuses/ways to do the wrong thing that somehow slip between the lines, and you'll most likely be fine.
it's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission. In simple terms, when in doubt whip it out.Quote: AZDuffman\
FWIW I really do not understand why this needs to be beaten to death. Like many things in life if you are not sure if you should do it just be safe and don't do it because you are probably right.
Quote: AxelWolfit's better to beg for forgiveness than to ask for permission. In simple terms, when in doubt whip it out.
Depends on the situation. When you are a guest at someone's house you do not act like you are at home.
Quote: WizardWhat is so hard about just not doing it at all?
What is so hard about just saying "Yes, it's double-posting. Don't do it." ?
If you must know I was going to be posting WoVCon 4 promos here and at DT, as well as maybe setting up or prodding someone else to set up a pre-WoVCon meet (as we've had the past two years). Given how the rules are getting tighter and the mods seem trigger-happy, I thought it best to ask first.
As to why promote on both sides, there are two reasons: 1) The post turnover here is too fast sometimes, so rather than bump the promo up all day long, I thought to do it once or twice only here and once only at DT, which has a lower turnover rate. 2) To avoid more harassment from some posters here who object to any and all non-gambling topics(*).
Quote:I'm getting rather annoyed with all the drama.
I'm sorry. I can only plead that if I'd gotten a single answer rather than three different ones, I'd have stopped asking for clarification.
(*) I realize WoVCon is gambling-realted. But as there would have been much reptition, the more consistent strict-gaming-only gentlemen might be annoyed.
Quote: nareed
(*) I realize WoVCon is gambling-realted
Actually, I thought this was a -Vegas- related board, not a purely -gambling- related board. But, you know, maybe I misread it.
I assume you meant related, and not something to do with realty. Because if this is about the latter, we've seriously gone of topic for years....
Quote: Wizard
I'm getting rather annoyed with all the drama.
Amen...
I was joking, however this might work for her. Asking for forgiveness that is.Quote: AZDuffmanDepends on the situation. When you are a guest at someone's house you do not act like you are at home.
Quote: AxelWolfI was joking, however this might work for her. Asking for forgiveness that is.
Sorry if that sounded sharp, kind of burned out today. Just trying to do my part as a board long-time to end the drama and nonsense.
If you had done that a while back, or even by PM to the boss, you'd have your answer.
So, was it an answer or drama that you had in mind?
You seriously think that will happen, especially when people keep responding to her? If answer one question there will just be one to replace it. Its obvious she feels some contempt after the recent suspension. I'm not sure why she wants to post in both places or mess with PM's.Quote: AZDuffmanSorry if that sounded sharp, kind of burned out today. Just trying to do my part as a board long-time to end the drama and nonsense.
Cant you just add a link or something if you want someone to read one or the other forum?
