The Pros and Cons of Free Speech

When I started this board I had a vision that if I allowed almost unrestricted free speech then the board would be intellectual utopia. I thought if anyone got out of line then the rest of the community would gently him straight. In the early days of the forum I shared my vision with another forum member who used to run his own board. After I finished he first had a good laugh at my expense, as if he had heard this before. Then he said that it would just be a matter of time before I either learned the folly of that vision or the forum became a cesspit of bullies and trolls.

While I feel I gave free speech every chance to work, I grow to realize that the advice I was given above was correct more with each passing day. I’m still about half way there only – probably because I’m a slow learner. What I have learned is that if you allow people to come in here as a place to expel their bile in the name of free speech you create a cesspool for everybody else.

Forum rules can go only so far. I want members to feel they have a fairly long leash to say what is on their minds. However, that needs to be done with the understanding of where you are. Someone used the example that if you were invited into someone else’s home and you insulted the home and the people who lived in it, then you probably wouldn’t be invited back. That is how I feel. If you have nothing good to say then I would prefer you left voluntarily.

While I used to think of myself as a benevolent dictator, I’m about half way to realizing that in some situations a more ruthless dictator gets the job done better. In the future expect more bannings of members who know how to stay within the rules of any one post, but the whole of their writings are nasty, negative, and argumentative. Those are not the kind of people I like in my life, and would prefer to not have them here either.

For those who don’t like me, my rules, or this forum, by all means I wish you well elsewhere. For the “casinos are evil” crowd, may I recommend the Beyond Counting forum. For those who need an almost unrestricted place to vent whatever they have to say, may I recommend The Phlogistician's Corner:Redux. This was the first board I was ever a part of, and an active member in its early days.

“Freedom of choice is what you’ve got. Freedom from choice is what you want.” -- Devo

Quote: Wizard

the forum became a cesspit of bullies and trolls.

Hey! I resent that remark (grin).

I take it as a note to not be quite so pedantically argumentative when it's not required.

Quote: Wizard

I’m still about half way there only – probably because I’m a slow learner.

At least, this is not a poll ;)

Quote: Wizard

... he said that it would just be a matter of time before I either learned the folly of that vision or the forum became a cesspit of bullies and trolls....I grow to realize that the advice I was given above was correct more with each passing day

Actually I don't think this site is overly marred by the problem ... I think you have managed it pretty well. Perhaps you are bummed by the time you have to devote to keeping it clean.

In any case I don't come away thinking I had just been somewhere awful when I visit, hardly ever. Just a few bumps once in a while. I can't say that about other such sites I have participated in. Maybe I have gotten better at avoidance.

Just for the record at 11:47 I posted that somebody will sure bring up the idea of Free Speech and reminded posters that
this forum was not free. Talk about co-incidences LOL By the length of Mikes thread that was posted at 11:51 , we were both
typing the words Free Speech within second of each other.

As for me, I never had any problems with Bob's stand against the casino industry. Casinos are just a business, not a person.
Plus Bob never called me a cheater for using my brain against a casino game that blatantly admits only losers are welcome to play.

What Odious said...I concur!

I think you were well within your rights Wizard. Freedom of Speech initially was so you couldn't be imprisoned for hate speech towards the government, which sadly still happens in many countries in this world. I had a professor in college who came here from Iraq, who was forced to watch people of Saddam's Ba'ath party rape his wife over things he said about the government over there.
Unfortunately, in this country, many people have taken that Free Speech right to an extreme level, they have taken it to mean that I can say anything, anywhere and not have any consequences as a result of it. If an employer thinks that things you say are detremental to the company making money and remaining profitable then they are within their rights to fire you. If a forum feels that someone's posts or presence is detremental to the forum, then they have all means to dismiss said person from the forum.

Quote: Wizard

When I started this board I had a vision that if I allowed almost unrestricted free speech then the board would be intellectual utopia.

I think its possible the Greeks (the more ancient ones) likely ended up stabbing each other in totally open ended forums. At least, I imagine they eventually needed to hire some security if not more than that.

Quote: rxwine

I think its possible the Greeks (the more ancient ones) likely ended up stabbing each other in totally open ended forums. At least, I imagine they eventually needed to hire some security if not more than that.

That sounds rather Roman.

In Athens the Greeks resorted to a simialr shceme as the Wizard's: ostracism. Some political fights were settled by voting whom to ban from athens. The ballots consited of broken pieces of pottery, known as potsherds, on which you wrote the anme of the person to be banned. I forget whether it was a permanent ban or a temporary one.

Oh, the Greek word for potsherd is "Ostrakon," ergo ostracism.

I've no complaints about how the Wizard runs the site. And I readily admit I've skated on very thin ice at times; if I don't say that, someone else will bring it up. Just the same, I find that blocking some users works rather well. Sometimes it's a pain, but it also keeps me out of most political discussions. So maybe there should be an easier way to block a given user.

Ha ha, thanks Nareed. Well then I will modify, the banning probably prevented some potential stabbings : )

Quote: Wizard

Someone used the example that if you were invited into someone else’s home and you insulted the home and the people who lived in it, then you probably wouldn’t be invited back.

This is a valid example, but it is not necessarily the most correct analogy. You have to decide whether to run this place as a public forum or as a home.

A forum is not a person's home. In antiquity, a forum was a public square, dedicated to commerce, social interaction and political debate. Your position on a classical forum would be that of a magistrate, among other functions empowered to enforce public order. The exact decisions are magistrate's discretion, but the policy being enforced is public.

If treated like a home, your position on this board would be that of a house father or a patriarch, responsible for the home's bread and butter, teaching the children to behave, welcoming your guests and deciding at will, but within the traditions of courtesy, the duration and the extent of their presence.

A board can be a public forum or as a private residence, and both work, but the two have different standards of behavior. A forum is a place where free speech is a right, as long as one observes the public order. In a private home that is not the case and speech is subservient to the traditions of courtesy. In each case there is a particular understanding about how everyone should behave and how and when the bearer of authority will exercise his power.

So whichever decision you make, please make sure it's the one you want. A city square will never be as clean as a home floor, but dinner conversations in the living room can not be as open as they can be in a public forum. Please make that decision based on your long-term vision regarding this board and not a reaction to particular incidents. Both can be, in different ways, interesting and pleasant places to be, if maintained with respective policies.

I believe you are slightly misapplying the term 'freedom of speech', but I support your actions 100% and believe they are the correct ones to take. We are all guests in your virtual establishment here, and you get to set the rules. If someone doesn't like it, tough.

This seems like a great opportunity to show gratitude to the Wizard for making all this possible. I get a lot of pleasure out of the site several days a week, and it has never cost me one red cent. Thank you!

I enjoy coming here to read people's opinions, whether they align with mine or not is irrelevant. What I do not enjoy is 3rd grade behavior like personal attacks, and people who constantly create posts designed to start an argument. The keyword there is constantly. At one time or another we are all probably going to provoke a dust up. But it can be a good read when everyone is minding their manners.

It has been said many times that people will write much harsher/cruder on a forum, where they get to hide in anonymity, than they would speak out loud face to face, where their behavior would subject them to ridicule and ostracization. I prefer not to have those people around who can't behave the majority of the time. Let them troll other boards. In my opinion, if your words would get you ostracized from a public meeting, then I appreciate it when Wiz gives the abuser the boot.

I don't want this to be a sterile environment, but there is a lot of good room between sterile and cesspit.

Freedom of Speech?

There is the old phrase, "I may not agree with you, but I'll defend your right to say it."

I think, somewhere along the lines, that phrase got truncated.

I think it originally included or should include, "... as long as you say it in a civilized manner."


For what it's worth, I think a lot of the discussions and members are quite civilized and well behaved. It's just a few loose cannons that spoil the party. Unfortunatly, when that happens, it tends to affect everything.

Quote: bigfoot66

This seems like a great opportunity to show gratitude to the Wizard for making all this possible. I get a lot of pleasure out of the site several days a week, and it has never cost me one red cent. Thank you!

You're welcome :-).

I agree, Mike and JB have done a wonderful job providing this site for all of us. I have no problem with a good debate or argument. When it gets personal then it is out of bounds. I think it is fair to criticize casinos if there is a reason for it. However, I do not believe random hatred of them solves anything. If you really feel that way then just stay away and go to the movies. I also do not mind being politically incorrect once in a while if it is not a malicious insult or attack, I am one that believes we have gone too far in that direction and a happy medium needs to be found.

Quote: hook3670

I agree, Mike and JB have done a wonderful job providing this site for all of us. I have no problem with a good debate or argument. When it gets personal then it is out of bounds. I think it is fair to criticize casinos if there is a reason for it. However, I do not believe random hatred of them solves anything. If you really feel that way then just stay away and go to the movies. I also do not mind being politically incorrect once in a while if it is not a malicious insult or attack, I am one that believes we have gone too far in that direction and a happy medium needs to be found.

I agree. They accurately represent the product. You have a chance to win big, but everybody knows that if you play long enough they will beat you.

Quote: P90

This is a valid example, but it is not necessarily the most correct analogy. You have to decide whether to run this place as a public forum or as a home.

I think this is a valid point by P90.....is WoV a public forum or a home?

I have always considered it to be "Wiz's home" and that he has the right to dictate the rules, spank the kids when they are out of line, ask people to leave (i.e. ban them temporarily or permanently), etc.

Without a dictator (benevolent or not) keeping the peace and getting rid of the trolls/spammers, etc. any site would quickly become overrun with non-valuable information, insults and other misbehavior. And I suspect I would quickly decide not to visit as often.

Wiz is doing an excellent job of not letting that happen and I will continue to defer to his judgement when being present in a place in which I consider myself a guest.

deleted

Quote: Ibeatyouraces

The first thing I did when I met him was to thank him for all the hard work he does.

The first thing I did was give him a great big bear hug.

I think I scared him....



In case I haven't said so lately, Thanks Wiz!

I too would like to thank the Wiz, although I have never met him, and have only been active on the forum recently, I have followed the forum and his other site for years, and I do some brushing up on my favorite games on his sites before I step foot in a casino.