Dealer Pay: Good, Bad, Ugly?
Ez pai Gow yay or nay
Long story short: Paigowdan sez some casinos hire at (or near) the minimum wage, sometimes getting dealers who cannot calculate the 5% House vig in Pai Gow Poker. Royalgeejoon, the thread starter, takes issue, saying many people like the job, noting it pays well (min. $20/hr), 20 minute break every hour, free food, and good benefits. PlayYourCardsRight sez he deals in a Midwest casino and makes $16/hr including tips, works 80 minutes for a 20-minute break, and food is not free.
Last December I had a table all to myself and had the opportunity to ask my dealer about pay. I've done this several times, and always get about the same info back: My Biloxi dealer reported a base pay of $4.50/hr (+tips), normal raise was 10 cents per year (i.e., 20-cent raise after 2 years, 30-cent raise after 3 years, if I understand correctly). Yes, they get "free food" (whatever was left over from yesterday's buffet, mostly). Also, annual performance appraisal usually docked part of your raise for something or other, so you never get the "full" raise. And, because the casino was marshaling all available cash that year for construction/renovation, there were no raises that year at all for anyone. But, my dealer really liked the job, notwithstanding the fact that her hourly wage was almost always totally consumed by income tax withholding, social security tax, and employee share of benefit costs, leaving only shared tips as her true take-home pay.
So, my questions are, "What are dealers paid in other places? And what are the usual working conditions (benefits, breaks, food, etc.)?"
Quote: LuckyPhowA few days ago an EZ Pai Gow Poker thread got sidelined for a few messages while folks commented about whether dealers had a good job that paid (reasonably) well or not. I'll summarize (below), but you can read it here:
Ez pai Gow yay or nay
Long story short: Paigowdan sez some casinos hire at (or near) the minimum wage, sometimes getting dealers who cannot calculate the 5% House vig in Pai Gow Poker. Royalgeejoon, the thread starter, takes issue, saying many people like the job, noting it pays well (min. $20/hr), 20 minute break every hour, free food, and good benefits. PlayYourCardsRight sez he deals in a Midwest casino and makes $16/hr including tips, works 80 minutes for a 20-minute break, and food is not free.
Last December I had a table all to myself and had the opportunity to ask my dealer about pay. I've done this several times, and always get about the same info back: My Biloxi dealer reported a base pay of $4.50/hr (+tips), normal raise was 10 cents per year (i.e., 20-cent raise after 2 years, 30-cent raise after 3 years, if I understand correctly). Yes, they get "free food" (whatever was left over from yesterday's buffet, mostly). Also, annual performance appraisal usually docked part of your raise for something or other, so you never get the "full" raise. And, because the casino was marshaling all available cash that year for construction/renovation, there were no raises that year at all for anyone. But, my dealer really liked the job, notwithstanding the fact that her hourly wage was almost always totally consumed by income tax withholding, social security tax, and employee share of benefit costs, leaving only shared tips as her true take-home pay.
So, my questions are, "What are dealers paid in other places? And what are the usual working conditions (benefits, breaks, food, etc.)?"
I Dealt cards just after I turned 19 and worked in three different casinos. First one I made $14.16/ hour I think plus $0.90/hour in tips (tips sucked at that casino) and $1/hour night premium. Second casino where I worked for most of my dealing time I was paid $12.50/hour plus between $5-$6/hour in tips. The last casino that I worked at was the best, we were paid $12/hour and made about $12/hour in tips paid daily in cash.
Some notes;
1. Some fancy casinos may pay quite well ($70K a year plus because of tips): The strip (like the Cosmopolitan, Aria, and Caesars), and top-notch casinos in scattered cities, etc.
2. Can be rough dealing to some upset and demanding people/shot takers day in and day out.
3. Can have plenty of back-biting politics in the pit, depends on the place, but generally not warm and fuzzy all the time in the pit. Everything the bosses sweat comes down onto the dealer at the bottom.
4. A job with a name tag is not a career in an office. If you don't rise up to an office job in the industry but instead wear a name tag, you have a job in which you might be easily replaceable.
5. Dealers often quit for other work or for better casinos. Good jobs (and good help) is hard to find and keep.
Edit: Food and breaks; generally 40, 60 or 80 minutes on, 20 off. Cafeteria food of hot dogs, fries, pasta, pork chops or fish & potatoes (fish is often tilapia), and an assortment of salads and sandwiches. Milk, soda, and coffee as bevs.
Quote: PaigowdanCan have plenty of back-biting politics in the pit... Good jobs (and good help) is hard to find and keep.
Best I can tell from Biloxi dealers, casinos work hard to keep their (reasonably) competent dealers, and it shows when talking to the dealers. I hear comments that bosses will bend over backward to give early out on a given day to someone trying to get to a doctor appointment. Or, the late arriver (evening shift) who calls to say his son's baseball game has just gone into extra innings and he might be late. The boss checks to see who on the earlier shift can stay on for a while. I often see a real team spirit, both between dealers and with the pit bosses.
As someone into management dynamics, it is easy to spot when you see it. Likewise, if I am tipping the dealers (somewhat rare in Biloxi, unfortunately), pit bosses don't fuss (much) if my dice don't hit the back wall and are helpful to me in whatever way they can. As a bottom-feeder, I think they report other valuable aspects of my play (for example, first person to open a table, since many don't want to play unless others are there first).
And many in Biloxi can remember 25 years ago -- before casinos arrived -- when only a few worked at the military bases (good pay) and the rest worked in the fishing industry (poor pay). Compared to the fishing industry, casino jobs are great!
I've seen the pit environment vary from cut-throat and pure drill-sergeant state-of-fear scare tactics (when there's more applicants than positions) to warmth when help is scarce. Some operators try to instill a super team spirit on a continuous basis - 'everyone is a guest!' - where Stations in particular tries in very good faith to instill warmth and decency among workers; others, well, not too good.
I've heard a few who left a poorer-paying but kind place regret the extra money at a new place where intimidation and 'job fear' rules, and for the extra $12K a year more.
Quote: PaigowdanGood to hear.
I've seen the pit environment vary from cut-throat and pure drill-sergeant state-of-fear scare tactics
Worst I ever came across was when a dealer told me the Table Game Director had once made the following negative comment about tips to the dealers: "Any money that goes in there [dealer toke box] is money I never get another shot at." He didn't just want my money, he wanted ALL of EVERYBODY'S money. Must'a been a swell guy, don'cher know.
in my state, $5/hr min and u keep your own tips. plus you get to sit down.
you avg a minimum of $1 tip per hand.
most people give more if a big pot. that cancels out the times people don't tip and mis-deals.
an avg dealer deals 30hands an hr.
so $30/hr tips + $5/hr base = $35/hr = $70k/yr if working full time
I also find it a bit interesting that when I offer dealers a chance to take a toke or play for the dealer, 9 out of 10 times they choose the play option. With the house advantage, I feel like it's wiser to just take the toke. In the long-run they may earn an extra buck or two and hour. Do dealers do this to stand in solidarity with the players, do dealers get a kick out of "gambling" as a sidebet, or do they do it because of a chance to double down and some ploppies will fork up another dollar or two to match the dealers double down bet? If there is a dealer (formal dealer) who can shed light on this would be much appreciated. Thank you.
Quote: 100xOddspoker dealer is probably the best dealing job in a casino.
in my state, $5/hr min and u keep your own tips. plus you get to sit down.
you avg a minimum of $1 tip per hand.
most people give more if a big pot. that cancels out the times people don't tip and mis-deals.
an avg dealer deals 30hands an hr.
so $30/hr tips + $5/hr base = $35/hr = $70k/yr if working full time
The other day I was taking to a dealer about that. He says that most dealers in this casino like their job
Your 70k a year is a little high though. There are in deed about 30 hands per hour however a dealer doesn't average 30 per hour. They usually switch tables ever 20 minutes so they will lose at least 2 hands on each switch. Plus they will have breaks which will cut their average. Then there are times when they are sitting around waiting for a table to open. I think they have a fair amount of down time. This particular dealer told me she made 47k last year. Still not a bad job or pay imo.
Quote: GWAEYour 70k a year is a little high though.
a dealer doesn't average 30 per hour.
They usually switch tables ever 20 minutes so they will lose at least 2 hands on each switch.
Plus they will have breaks which will cut their average. Then there are times when they are sitting around waiting for a table to open. I think they have a fair amount of down time. This particular dealer told me she made 47k last year. Still not a bad job or pay imo.
ahh.. forgot about switching tables.
at my casino, it's every 30min.
and yes, they sometimes sit at an empty table because it got broken up.
lets subtract 10% hands for that so 27 hands/hr.
$27 +$5 base = $32/hr = $64k/yr if 40hrs/week of tables with players.. lol
What kinds of games did you deal? Regular table games, or poker?Quote: PokerGrinderI Dealt cards just after I turned 19 and worked in three different casinos...
Quote: 100xOddsahh.. forgot about switching tables.
at my casino, it's every 30min.
and yes, they sometimes sit at an empty table because it got broken up.
lets subtract 10% hands for that so 27 hands/hr.
$27 +$5 base = $32/hr = $64k/yr if 40hrs/week of tables with players.. lol
More than 10% every switch you will miss 2 hands. That is 4 hands per hour, we can even say it will be 1.5 for 3 hands per hour. That alone is 10%. Then take in breaks, another 40 minutes or more a shift. That is approx 20 missed hands or 2.5 per hour. Then take your down time. Is that an hour a day? Let's say 30 minutes for another 15 hands missed. Those deductions are adding up quickly for about a 30% reduction off your 70k.
Quote: NathanI'm pretty sure that theoretically, dealers should be paid top pay to discourage stealing money from the players. If you're paid top pay you would be less inclined to steal money from players.
Dealers are vetted, and the vast majority of dealers don't do this regardless of pay, -- in exactly the same sense that bank tellers (or any clerk) who handles money doesn't do this either, generally.
Often the most corrupt are on the top of the food chain. Bernie Madoff, Michael Milken ("Milking") et al.
Quote: NathanI'm pretty sure that theoretically, dealers should be paid top pay to discourage stealing money from the players. If you're paid top pay you would be less inclined to steal money from players.
Someone that is going to steal is going to steal regardless of pay. There is always more money to be had.
Quote: GWAESomeone that is going to steal is going to steal regardless of pay. There is always more money to be had.
But who is more likely to steal his player's money? Sam who makes $10 an hour or Robert who is making $30 an hour?
New Dealer at downtown break-in joint demonstrating his skills to the Pit Boss: "how long do you think it will take me to get to The Venetian?''
Pit Boss: "Twenty minutes if you leave now".
I deal mostly dice, with some tiles.....when needed i can deal bj and bj switch, 3card, 4card, csp, lir, miss stud,high card flush, war, spanish and double attack.
Quote: NathanBut who is more likely to steal his player's money? Sam who makes $10 an hour or Robert who is making $30 an hour?
The one who makes $30 an hour - because his appetite is whetted and his eyes are bigger.
The one who makes $10 an hour - because he is hungrier.
ad infinitum.....
Seriously, it's just a matter of personal integrity, you don't know who is a crook or not until the tire hits the road when on the job.
Isn't there a website that lists the salary and conditions for dealers from a large number of casinos? I recall that the data is the result of anonymous surveys.Quote: LuckyPhowSo, my questions are, "What are dealers paid in other places? And what are the usual working conditions (benefits, breaks, food, etc.)?"
Quote: PaigowdanThe one who makes $30 an hour - because his appetite is whetted and his eyes are bigger.
The one who makes $10 an hour - because he is hungrier.
ad infinitum.....
Seriously, it's just a matter of personal integrity, you don't know who is a crook or not until the tire hits the road when on the job.
If you are making $30 an hour and you steal money from players, you are a straight up idiot! Making $240 a day before taxes, insurance, etc) (4800 a month before taxes, insurance, etc) is much more than many people make in 2 months.
Quote: NathanIf you are making $30 an hour and you steal money from players, you are a straight up idiot! Making $240 a day before taxes, insurance, etc) (4800 a month before taxes, insurance, etc) is much more than many people make in 2 months.
Money is all relative. Who is likely to steal. Person making $12 hr living at home or person making $25 with a $1800 month mortgage?
Quote: GWAEMoney is all relative. Who is likely to steal. Person making $12 hr living at home or person making $25 with a $1800 month mortgage?
Okay, good point, but I am hoping the one who has an $1800 month mortgage would downgrade to a cheap apartment where they have to live with 3 different roommates for $400 a month so they wouldn't have to think they would need to steal.
Quote: NathanOkay, good point, but I am hoping the one who has an $1800 month mortgage would downgrade to a cheap apartment where they have to live with 3 different roommates for $400 a month so they wouldn't have to think they would need to steal.
Except when that person used to make $75 an hour. You clearly have never been on the management side of businesses.
Quote: GWAEExcept when that person used to make $75 an hour. You clearly have never been on the management side of businesses.
If you used to make $75 an hour, get a cheaper apartment. My point still stands. There should be no excuse for stealing. A person who is making $10 an hour and steals from his job has a good REASON to steal, not a good EXCUSE. There is a difference between reason and excuse in my opinion. For example, Tom is has a very nasty fall and is given a suspiciously high dosage of painkillers from his very legitimate doctor and he fills it at his very legitimate pharmacy and the pharmacist blindly fills the prescription. Tom takes the suspiciously high dosage of painkillers the next day and drives under the legal drugged influence and gets into an accident that kills another person. The court finds him legally not responsible for his action. They instead sue Tom's doctor and the pharmacist.
Now this is different. Tom graduates from college after excruciating hard studying. He goes out graduation night/morning with his buddies and gets wasted with 10 shots of whiskey and gin. He feels good and feels he can drive home safely. He speed drives under the influence of the whiskey and gin and crashes his car into another car and kills someone. He is sentenced to prison for DUI, reckless driving, and vehicular manslaughter. He drank way too much was the REASON he killed a person. But it is no EXCUSE.
Quote: NathanIf you used to make $75 an hour, get a cheaper apartment. My point still stands. There should be no excuse for stealing. A person who is making $10 an hour and steals from his job has a good REASON to steal, not a good EXCUSE. There is a difference between reason and excuse in my opinion.
You must be in an alternate universe. Life does not work that easy. If you used to make 75 and now make 25 with 24 years of your 30 year mortgage it is not that easy to just move to an apartment.
I never said stealing was the right thing to do so your point still makes no sense. My point is, it does not matter what your income was in order to determine who is most likely to steal. When people steal they do it for 1 of 2 reasons. They are either just a bad person looking to take shots or they are desperate and do it because they feel there are no other options.
There used to be, though its accuracy and timeliness were often in doubt. Now of course its non-existent. I would expect the Evil Empire to let it be known that they would fire anyone who posted information there and I would expect them to actually do it too.Quote: DJTeddyBearBack to the original question...Isn't there a website that lists the salary and conditions for dealers from a large number of casinos? I recall that the data is the result of anonymous surveys.
There used to be a paper newsletter in the mid-2000s which listed tips at Las Vegas casinos each week.Quote: DJTeddyBearBack to the original question...Isn't there a website that lists the salary and conditions for dealers from a large number of casinos? I recall that the data is the result of anonymous surveys.
Casino Dealer News (2014)
http://www.casinodealersnews.com/toke-report/
Here's some data (mostly 2008-2009).
http://www.vegas-aces.com/Root/tips/states/nevada-lasvegas.html
From an old 2010 WoV thread,
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/off-topic/general/2777-what-does-a-dealer-make/
Quote: mkl654321There is a newsletter called "The Dealer's News", which publishes reported tokes for the month/week; however, they've gone to a subscription-based website, so all you can see is a blurred version of the report.
The last time I saw the print version was last summer (2009), where the reported tokes/shift were as low as $32 in a couple of downtown grind joints, and $450+ at Caesars. The basic numbers seemed to be mostly in these ranges: Downtown, $40-65, Local's joints, $45-90, Low-end Strip, $70-190, High-end Strip, $110-500.
These numbers are added to a base wage that is almost always minimum federal, with perhaps $1/hr more for some positions. Many dealers have told me that all of the base wage goes to pay the taxes on the tokes.
-----Quote: PaigowdanSome local casinos in the LV area are about $25 to $75 a day in tips on top of minimum wage, or $3.12 to $9.37 an hour.
There are "break-in" local joints like Joker's wild, the Western, El Cortez, the Longhorn, etc at about $30 a day.
Then there are "comfortable" local places like Green Valley, Texas Station, Boulder Station, Sam's Town, Fiesta Henderson, Cannery properties, Golden Nugget, Main Street Station, Sunset Station, etc. Tips = $50 to $110 a day there.
P.S. In Ireland, casino dealers don't like tips. They make a good salary, and when you tip it means the house is losing.
Dealers should know that some players come from countries where tipping in casinos is NOT the norm.
Quote: NathanIf you are making $30 an hour and you steal money from players, you are a straight up idiot! Making $240 a day before taxes, insurance, etc) (4800 a month before taxes, insurance, etc) is much more than many people make in 2 months.
I knew an Atlantic City blackjack dealer who a few decades ago stole $80,000 from his table over the course of a number of months, (and was never noticed!), and used that money to start a construction business in another state that made him a millionaire. I told of his history a few times here.
At the time he made that much in tips plus the additional $15K a month in theft. Years later he went back, told his story to the casino execs there, offering to repay - and was told to go away in a "this didn't happen and would just cause problems now" vein.
He didn't think he was an idiot, he thought he was a genius. Strangely, it could not have worked out better. In hindsight he realized that if life were fair he'd have done a ton of time.
Quote:Dealers should know that some players come from countries where tipping in casinos is NOT the norm.
Players can know tipping here is the norm. When in Rome....
Quote: GWAEYou must be in an alternate universe. Life does not work that easy. If you used to make 75 and now make 25 with 24 years of your 30 year mortgage it is not that easy to just move to an apartment.
I never said stealing was the right thing to do so your point still makes no sense. My point is, it does not matter what your income was in order to determine who is most likely to steal. When people steal they do it for 1 of 2 reasons. They are either just a bad person looking to take shots or they are desperate and do it because they feel there are no other options.
This is an utter rationalization, "no other option." If you're working full time and making less, you downsize. If you are not working, stealing chips from a gambling hall is a bit different than sliding a steak under your coat at a supermarket to feed your family. If your family is hungry you're not in a gambling hall (or else they're hungry because you are in a gambling hall).
Quote: DJTeddyBearBack to the original question...Isn't there a website that lists the salary and conditions for dealers from a large number of casinos? I recall that the data is the result of anonymous surveys.
Well, durn! Why didn't I think of that? (Giving myself well-deserved dope slap.)
Here's the low-down from a website (I believe) not yet mentioned in this thread:
Casino Dealer: Dream Job or Nightmare?
- Starting Salary: $7 - $8 per hour
- Average Dealer Salary: $10 per hour after a "few years." US Bureau of Labor Statistics sez average dealer salary (excluding tips) is $14,700 per year.
- Average tips: Anything from a few dollars per hour up to $50 per hour.
- Total pay, including tips: $30,000 - $60,000 per year, topping out around $100,000 per year (in very rare, exceptional cases).
But, if "business" is slow, dealers may get fewer hours, lowering pay. And, there are other drawbacks to dealing as a job, and the article mentions those also.
Quote: LuckyPhow
But, if "business" is slow, dealers may get fewer hours, lowering pay. And, there are other drawbacks to dealing as a job, and the article mentions those also.
Yes and no. Where i work (Im on the strip) If its a slow time of year, they offer full time employees days off and give the part time (extra board) employees those shifts...So it gives the part timers more opportunities to get more days during slow times..which is nice.
I dont see any threads about tipping..so it must be a sore subject on these forums
Not lately, but if you do a search, you'll find plenty.Quote: GlenGI dont see any threads about tipping..so it must be a sore subject on these forums
And as to the last statement, let's just say there is a range of opinions on the subject, sometimes argued "vigorously." :)
