Scossa dice - relaunch at Palace Station

Scossa Dice is being relaunched at Palace Station. I stopped in and saw the pit crew getting up to speed on the game.

The game was previously field trialed at Red Rock station, but was sadly pulled earlier, though it passed Nevada Gaming requirements, and is a bona-fide salable gaming product for casinos.

The game had been updated with a new layout, (including the removal of the dealer solicitation stripe), and now looks crisp and professional.

Palace Station is a busy, near-strip casino with a lot of Asian games and some Carnival games, tons of BJ tables, and the Scossa product is in the crap pit area.

The game is a good and easy way to play dice prop bets as an alternative to Roulette in Style, with a "Three consecutive Seven's" as a multi-roll bet bonus option. The house edge on the bets are vey fair for a side game, and it offers quick action, in addition to being 'low buy-in amount" friendly. Should get more action there than at Red Rock.

Wish it luck, or even give it a try. At the very least, chime in with your thoughts.

Quote: Paigowdan

David Brodrick's Scossa Dice
The game had been updated with a new layout, (including the removal of the dealer solicitation stripe), and now looks crisp and professional.

Glad they did away with that "Lucky 7 For The Dealer" bet!

Quote: NowTheSerpent

Quote: Paigowdan

David Brodrick's Scossa Dice
The game had been updated with a new layout, (including the removal of the dealer solicitation stripe), and now looks crisp and professional.

Glad they did away with that "Lucky 7 For The Dealer" bet!

Glad David listened, too. One of the most important things a game developer can do is to get the dealers on the side of the game, but this is done by making the game easy to deal (which this game pretty much already is), and by providing dealer training and answering questions.
A few problems with an open request for tips on a layout are that:
1. People suspect that the basic game is weak if it needs an "open crutch."
2. Tip jars are off-putting and condescending for casino games.

David was very flexible and responsive in this regard, a good quality for a game designer.

The move from Red Rock to Palace Station I think is a good relocation. Palace has a lot of tourist foot traffic, candidates who are likely to try an easy to play side game. The game did pass its field trial at Red Rock, but didn't find its audience over there.

It isn't easy finding a new niche in the casino games market, as people tend to stay with their standard favs.
It has the advantage of being "just the prop bets" as a dice game, and at a better player value.
It gets people comfortable throwing dice, a good thing in my point of view. It's less intimidating than regular craps. Sort of an "Easy craps" without the 7-based trigger mechanism.

It's competition with craps is balance by its possibility of being a feeder game for new crap players.
Time will tell if it makes a place for itself.

I played Scossa when it was at Red Rock. I normally play craps when I gamble, so the "simple craps" game didn't appeal to me too much. But the game does offer another way to play with dice in the casino, which I think is good.

I don't think it competes with the Craps table other than taking up similar space. Craps players will likely not step up to the Scossa table on a regular basis nor vice versa.

I think the game better competes with Roulette and really should be placed closer to the Roulette Table than the Craps pit. It is really a Roulette game with two dice generating the winning number as opposed to a ball and a spinning wheel.

As I think about it, David may want to think about insisting the placement of future installs are near Roulette tables versus the Craps pit. One goal of the game appears to be making dice less intimidating and for a non-craps player having a smaller tub type table near the rest of those scary craps tables doesn't appear less intimidating. Being able to watch while playing their normal Roulette game may allow for better player cross over to try Scossa.

JMHO

Quote: Paradigm

...I don't think it competes with the Craps table other than taking up similar space. Craps players will likely not step up to the Scossa table on a regular basis nor vice versa.

Very good point - as new game table placement - "positioning' - can affect how well it does. And it really is "Roulette-y" in feel...

Quote: Paradigm

I think the game better competes with Roulette and really should be placed closer to the Roulette Table than the Craps pit. It is really a Roulette game with two dice generating the winning number as opposed to a ball and a spinning wheel.

As I think about it, David may want to think about insisting the placement of future installs are near Roulette tables versus the Craps pit. One goal of the game appears to be making dice less intimidating and for a non-craps player having a smaller tub type table near the rest of those scary craps tables doesn't appear less intimidating. Being able to watch while playing their normal Roulette game may allow for better player cross over to try Scossa.

JMHO

VERY Good opinion.
However, a designer of new game is lucky to have his game see the recessed lighting of the casino floor, and has little input as to how the casino implements it. The designer has even less input when he goes through a distributor before reaching the casino level.

On the other hand, a serious, important and major casino operator (Barona, MGM Resorts, Harrah's, etc.) do know what they're doing, and often know best as to how to make a new game work. It's the "little shop" gambling hall that tries a new game who may really mess up its launch.

Has this table of Scossa at Palace Station survived the year?

As far as I know, no. I did not see it recently at Palace station. If this is not the case, let us know of the installs.

" VERY Good opinion.
However, a designer of new game is lucky to have his game see the recessed lighting of the casino floor, and has little input as to how the casino implements it. The designer has even less input when he goes through a distributor before reaching the casino level."


Point well taken. Shufflemaster has terrible position on Switch at the Mardi Gras. Far end of pit, backed up against crap table, no
rack cards available, no rules posted. $10 minimum ( player has to bet $20 a round to learn new game. ) Will
be pleasantly surprised if game is still there in Blackhawk om my next visit.. Already gone from other locations.

At same time Stacey Perry has great Streak signage ( different color neons ) at Ameristar and best locations, both
entrances to curve pit, at The Lodge. Both are the two biggest casino's in Blackhawk. Sometimes a smaller
distributor is better, but not often. Stacey is an exception.

I only wish the pay were 174-to-5 instead of 34-to-1 on the hardways prop bets.

2.78% edge per roll is a lot higher than 0.40% per roll. A big attraction of the game of craps has to do with the low house edge IMO. Add in the free bets, and we're talking world apart between the two game's edges.

Why not make varieties with lower edges to see how they do?

It's funny that redrock goes from 3x4x5x odds to 10x odds AND gets rid of Scossa, then Scossa is tried again at 2.78% edge per roll as if the location is going to be the big difference that it needs.

Most people ultimately just want to win money. If you lower the edge, more people will win instead of just the few that take a couple bets and walk real quick.

I disagree. People win at the same frequency, but take down a little less, the house keeps a little more.

2% or 3% on main (flat) bets for casino-banked games are not horrific, and casinos do have to make income, to pay their light bills and to pay people to put up with us.

People either like a game - think it is fun - or dislike a game - feel that it is uncompelling; so as long as the house edge is reasonable (and a couple of percentage points is utterly reasonable), most people will NOT be saying, "well, this game has a house edge of 2.98365734936503%, while THAT game has a house edge of 2.48362448735198% !! A-Ha!"

" most people will NOT be saying, "well, this game has a house edge of 2.98365734936503%, while THAT game has a house edge of 2.48362448735198% !! A-Ha!" "

People have not stop playing Blackjack because most tables are H17, that's for sure.

Quote: Paigowdan

I disagree. People win at the same frequency, but take down a little less, the house keeps a little more.

2% or 3% on main (flat) bets for casino-banked games are not horrific, and casinos do have to make income, to pay their light bills and to pay people to put up with us.

People either like a game - think it is fun - or dislike a game - feel that it is uncompelling; so as long as the house edge is reasonable (and a couple of percentage points is utterly reasonable), most people will NOT be saying, "well, this game has a house edge of 2.98365734936503%, while THAT game has a house edge of 2.48362448735198% !! A-Ha!"

We do disagree. The difference isn't how much the house will keep. The difference is how long is someone able to play before they lose it all.

The difference is remarkably different from 2.78% per roll compared to 0.4% per roll in terms of how long you're able to stay there playing for the same net cost.

There will not be as much big money at a Scossa table as a craps table without free bets and lower house edge per roll bets. Just my opinion. So it's fine to disagree, and I know you're the experienced guy here, but that's what I have to say about it.

Bigger money on the table is more exciting.

But if you want something like roulette, I guess that's one goal.

I don't think the House Edge kills a game by iteself, it comes down to the entertainment value of the game.

In craps you have a bunch of people wagering on the same outcome (or at least rooting against a seven together). There is comraderie and a journey to the game: The come out roll establishes a point, the player takes a few rolls and hopefully some other place numbers are hit and then the shooter rolls the point, everyone wins.....rinse and repeat. There is more than just roll the dice once and see what bets win.

I played Scossa at Red Rock and while the goal of simpification of a dice game was achieved, I felt like it was almost too simple. Of course I am likely not the target audience for the game. I don't play roulette either as it is simply put your money down and watch the result, Roulette is clearly a successful game probably due to its simplicity and the various bets that can be made. Scossa is simple and there are various bets that can be made.

But roulette has more of a journey to it then Scossa. The ball spins round and round and you get to watch how close you came to a win. Some believe there are patterns to the wheel results, etc. Of course many have said that if you introduce Roulette today it fails, I think that has more to do with the equipment and floor space required than the game itself.

Even baccarat, another passive, non-strategic game, has a longer potential journey to each hand. You bet on banker, the initial cards come out with Player having a intial total of 4 and the Banker having an initial total of 2. Player hand draws a face card and does not improve, Banker draws a 5 and improves to 7, you win! Even though there isn't a strategy in baccarat, there is entertainment value in the journey of the hand.

That lack of a journey is a key ingredient missing in Scossa. Problem is, I don't know how to fix it without complicating the game and we already have the complicated game, its called "Craps".

I never heard of Scossa before this post, but my impressions on it are somewhat negative. I'm not sure what about it that bugs me, but looking at the payouts, the only bets I feel psychologically comfortable with are the two range bets. I'm also not too keen on roulette though, so I may not be the best benchmark for this, as it gives off a really strong roulette vibe. (Between the two though, I think I'd go with Scossa over Roulette though.)

Quote: Paradigm

That lack of a journey is a key ingredient missing in Scossa. Problem is, I don't know how to fix it without complicating the game and we already have the complicated game, its called "Craps".

How about a single die version of craps? https://wizardofodds.com/games/die-rich/

What an absolutely horrible game. Not a single bet with an edge under 2.78%. Why in the world would anyone play this instead of craps? Yet another attempt to rip of the suckers?

Quote: AxiomOfChoice

What an absolutely horrible game. Not a single bet with an edge under 2.78%. Why in the world would anyone play this instead of craps? Yet another attempt to rip of the suckers?

2.78% isn't bad, nor is the house edge the issue with that game. Roulette is higher HE, as is many other popular games with a tremendous number of installs.



The game is arguably uncompelling.
...

Uninteresting, uninspiring, boring, unexciting....

tedious, dull, monotinous, humdrum....

dreary, insipid, bland...

colorless, characterless, tame....

mind-numbing, tiresome........



...

Quote: Paigowdan

2.78% isn't bad, nor is the house edge the issue with that game. Roulette is higher HE, as is many other popular games with a tremendous number of installs.

2.78% is really very bad. The fact that a game has lots of installs doesn't mean that it's not terrible. I'm sure that you will have no problem finding a 6:5 blackjack game either.

So, this is like the 6:5 version of craps then? Similar game; way worse odds?

I understand that the casino needs to keep the lights on, but I much prefer games with low elements of risk and either:
(1) the opportunity to make terrible plays, which players will often do (eg, UTH), or
(2) sucker side bets which the suckers will make anyway (like all the blackjack side bets)

IMO either of these are better than a game where the main game is a sucker bet, and the house can still make tons of money.

In fairness to roulette, at least it's very, very slow so it takes a while to lose all your money, even though the house edge is horrible. This also makes it easily the most boring game in the casino, IMO. I can't play it. It's like slots in slow motion, and with only one reel.

I'm going to go the next step: Scossa is a horrible game that generally appeals to almost nobody.

I have seen that table in Red Rock several times. Out of the 30 times I went there, 3 times it was open, and one time it had people on it.

That game is a joke, and until some serious gamblers find a reasonable bet compared to craps, it's future is more doomed than crapless craps with commission up front.

Crapless has an edge per roll of 5% on the passline. But That's not per roll that is per bet. The edge per roll is still much lower as a passline bet in crapless lasts longer than a passline bet in craps.

If you wanted to make a new dice game, it's great to have a bunch of low-edge prop bets. I don't even disagree with that part.

But you need at least ONE bet where players can comfortably put the BIG MONEY in order to make the game exciting.

Even if only one out of one hundred people are smart enough to take the BIG MONEY BET you need it there to advertise the game and make it appear exciting to the other less intelligent players.

Next time you have an open mind about craps, go to any casino that offers 10x odds or better and report back to me what percentage of the players takes max odds on every roll to keep the edge to the absolute minimum. I'm pretty sure that at any given moment, the chances are great that nobody is doing this (unless someone from this forum is with you and counted as a sample).

I will go ahead and tell you it's in the noise level and that plenty of folks still make horn bets over there. Otherwise that table would not be operating at all.

All the designers of games think too heavily about side-bets and high edge bets for suckers without due regard for the fact that most of the advertising that happens for the game is carried out by players who just want to get others excited about the game in a chance to actually win real money. If there is no chance to win big money, IN THE LONG RUN WHO CARES ABOUT THE GAME?

Right now, I would describe that as "DICE FOR DUMMIES" .. and classify it along side something like "$50 minimum bet CRAPLESS CRAPS with 0x ODDS" as far as how attractive it is for an experience dice shooter.

One more question: WHERE ARE THE STORIES OF PLAYERS WHO WON BIG MONEY PLAYING THIS GAME?

Casinos use the smart players to fool the dumb players into thinking that they can win. Without smart players winning, the dumb players will quit or never start.