FreeMath.com?
Poll
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18 members have voted
Personally - I just love it, and want to see it. I encourage it.
But some of the requests are:
1. Concerning Math than can really be self-done with a H.S diploma or G.E.D., and are not of a novel point of gaming discussion.
2. Requests that really require a mathematician's work, although some here will eagerly take a math project to resolve as a personal achievement challenge and post the results ("Mathies" area), screwing over a job for a mathematician who'll provide accountability.
3. Complex math by a game designer seeking free help in good faith on his endeavor - which we should help up to a point.
4. How to cheat better, or defeat a commercial product that has some vulnerabilities (this is okay, as such forum action gets the problem and answer to the distributor quickly and out in the open with only some damage done - hear that Mike and Eliot? Usually it promotes the game in excess of its losses through A.P. adverisement. Expect to hear some bitching and moaning from some rare casino cops like me, though...)
5. Just love the math end of it all
I don't like to see posts like:
"I need the math table for six card poker hand probabilties; in my game there are two hole cards, then TWO flop cards, one turn, one River. What are the probability tables for the hole cards, the four-card flop hand, the five card turn hand, and the six card River hand? I have a valid patent on a new game, but I need the people here to do the math for me for free." Granted, you'll still need a bona fide (paid for) math report, but the development work should be done by the developer. HE should work on his own game.
Most are not like this, but there is a lot of "just curious" easy math questions that should be lead to the answer instead of just given, if the poster is curious and why.
Quote: Paigowdan
I don't like to see posts like:
Then don't read them?
Quote: SOOPOOThen don't read them?
No. Then don't post them in the first place by thinking it out by yourself. The poster may be causing more damage to himself, waste our time and disk space here, and lose control of a proprietary idea which may be the basis of a hit game. Interesting and innocent math questions, yes - and they are different. But We are not a math homework site.
There are times when the math questions are folly, or reveal a game's design or jeopordize ownership. That's an issue here, Soo Poopoo.
Do we realize if a new game is developed on a public forum by a lazy game developer via requests for some "easy answers," then a valid claim might be made against the poster's ownership of that "hit" game, - especially if the design moves away from the original design, and other's work get incorporated?
Well, i've given similar advice before on other boards, like if you're asking such casino-related questions here at this "stage of the game", then what the heck are you doing anywhere near a casino, ever?
- Thank you for those excellent points.
Ideally, the WizarfofVegas. should be akin to a course like "Gambling 437" - instead of "Gambling 101." Mike wrote a book about basic gambling exactly called "Gambling 101";
There should be a online test on his book to be granted access to this Kingdom of a gambling site. Make it a bit select, like the Freemasons or something....:)
Quote: PaigowdanNo. Then don't post them in the first place by thinking it out by yourself.
Hmmm ... well put.
Should we also address you as Your Excellence from now on, or is there a different title you prefer?
I mean "I don't want to see posts ... then don't post them" is pretty damn ambitious, isn't it?
Quote:
Yeah... Or, a poster may be causing damage to himself by posting a casino having a good
Interesting and innocent math questions, yes - and they are different. But We are not a math homework site.
There are times when the math questions are folly, or reveal a game's design or jeopordize ownership. That's an issue here, Soo Poopoo.
No, it is not an issue. If somebody posts something he should not, and discloses some information meant to be private, it's his problem.
It is much easier done by discussing new game rules and features than by asking an elementary math question. Should those discussions be forbidden too?
Quote: WizardPersonally, I don't give free math tutoring. Sometimes there are posts that present a genuinely good math problem, including some from me. However, for those looking for something clearly for their own benefit, I think the mathematically enabled members of the site should stand together and demand to be paid for such work, should a reply be warranted at all.
Really? I did not expect such a statement from you.
Would you really find it appropriate to charge for answering a question like "what is the chance I get a blackjack, and the dealer does not"? How much do you think an answer to such a question is worth?
If the math question is easy enough to answer, it should be self-answered. Use Excel or a Ti-xx if you have to.
At least TRY. google and what not are allowed, too.
But if it beyound your time of day to accomplish this, then DO pay others for THEIR time on YOUR problem.
That's fair enough.
I think the "mathematically enabled members" should create a gaming expert / mathematician union and also set a standard fee structure for member services (based upon the seniority and popularity). Those who try to establish themselves as the next mathematicians (i.e., new kids on the block) by giving free tutoring should be barred from posting any answers here. The future mathematicians should take a certification exam from the union. Perhaps, tutoring by PM, strictly for promotional purposes, is allowed, however.Quote: Wizard... I think the mathematically enabled members of the site should stand together and demand to be paid for such work, should a reply be warranted at all.
Quote: PaigowdanWhat do you think Mike does for a living?
I am pretty sure, it's not solving high school math riddles ...
Quote:If the math question is easy enough to answer, it should be self-answered.
Can be said about any question, math or not.
Why post any questions ever?
Quote:But if it beyound your time of day to accomplish this, then DO pay others for THEIR time on YOUR problem.
That's fair enough.
No, it isn't. If there are people, who are able and willing to help for free, why not?
But, an even bigger thing you are missing is that it is not really a "problem". There is no money to be made from it, no benefit whatsoever. People posting these questions are not trying to inappropriately capitalize on your knowledge of elementary math, and cheat you out of your "IP" (which really isn't yours because it is public knowledge). They are just curious.
I'm a paid tutor & teaching assistant for graduate level math & engineering courses. I can afford to answer questions for free occasionally.
You want to make sure the person answering a question gets paid? Take a look at Google Answers. It worked for a while, then it died. We could try that here, but I predict the same fate.
Quote: weaselmanI am pretty sure, it's not solving high school math riddles ...
His work involves advanced results with full accountibility, and is worthy of the toll that is charged.
Quote: weaselmanCan be said about any question, math or not.
Why post any questions ever?
Because some might be very good, thought-provoking questions.
However, some questions might be retarded, and should not be posted.
There is a difference. May We See It.
Quote: DanBut if it beyound your time of day to accomplish this, then DO pay others for THEIR time on YOUR problem.
That's fair enough.
Quote: weaselmanNo, it isn't. If there are people, who are able and willing to help for free, why not?
Fine, let them help. And if someone comes to your employer and says, "I'll do Weasel's job for free for the next two weeks, so lay him off for two weeks and save yourself his pay" - and that'll be fine with you, eh? There are many people involved with advanced math who enjoy the challenge of real-world problem solving and scenarios, and who'll do a job for free, just for the kudo's or the accomplishment. For that matter, there are a number of "subway train freaks" who can safely drive a city underground subway train, and would love to do it for free if given the chance, also. Now they can't walk into an urban transit center and say "lay off a transit worker for two weeks, because I'm ready for some train-driving action underground!" But a math wiz can indeed carry out a graduate-level math project or professional gaming math report just for the challenge, the experience, and excitement, - without a care as to who it replaces on the job line. But now let's see if he'll spend the next fourty years working for free, as he will not grow to like this posture.
Quote: wealemanBut, an even bigger thing you are missing is that it is not really a "problem". There is no money to be made from it, no benefit whatsoever. People posting these questions are not trying to inappropriately capitalize on your knowledge of elementary math, and cheat you out of your "IP" (which really isn't yours because it is public knowledge). They are just curious.
Often they are, and I am fine with that over there. It's the other avenues that are the issue, Note the distinction!
Quote: PaigowdanHis work involves advanced results with full accountibility, and is worthy of the toll that is charged.
Yes, that's what I figure. That's exactly the reason why I was surprised when he said he thought the riddles showing up on this forum every now and then deserve to be paid for. It just sounds so ... petty ... and ... cheap ...
And how much money do you seriously expect to make on this stuff?
I really hope, he was just in a bad mood or something.
Quote:
Because some might be very good, thought-provoking questions.
However, some questions might be retarded, and should not be posted.
There is a difference. May We See It.
Does it really, honestly not occur to you that some stuff that provokes thought in you might be considered retarded by somebody else?
I mean, seriously, is it a point that needs explaining to an adult?
Quote:Fine, let them help. And if someone comes to your employer and says, "I'll do Weasel's job for free for the next two weeks, so lay him off for two weeks and save yourself his pay" - and that'll be fine with you, eh?
Yes, absolutely. That would just mean that my job, and my skills are worth nothing, I need to find another occupation. Such a layoff may be the best thing that could happen to me in that situation.
Quote:There are many people involved with advanced math who enjoy the challenge of real-world problem solving and scenarios, and who'll do a job for free, just for the kudo's or the accomplishment. For that matter, there are a number of "subway train freaks" who can safely drive a city underground subway train, and would love to do it for free if given the chance, also. Now they can't walk into an urban transit center and say "lay off a transit worker for two weeks, because I'm ready for some train-driving action underground!"
Sure, they can. Why not? Whether the boss will listen to them is a different story. Probably not.
Why? Well, a number of reasons. Not last being that driving a subway train requires way more skill than solving a high-school riddle.
Quote:But a math wiz can indeed carry out a graduate-level math project or professional gaming math report just for the challenge, the experience, and excitement, - without a care as to who it replaces on the job line. But now let's see if he'll spend the next fourty years working for free, as he will not grow to like this posture.
Once again, if you cannot find a paying job, it is not because there are too many damn "enthusiasts", it's because you do not possess enough skills that are worth any real money.
When I answer some questions, I also put in the thoughts and logic behind my answer.
However, more than once, after reading someone else's answer, I was forced to post one or both of the following images:
Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/homer_doh.jpg Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/homer_brainless.jpg
1. "Hi, I have a really hard homework question and it's not even gambling related, but it looks like there are some pretty smart folks on here. Please help."
For the most part, this is not interesting. If I choose to answer, I will omit details or point to methods to use.
2. "Some unlikely event happened at the casino last night, what are the odds of this happening."
This will get 20 answers and some will be wrong. I usually reply to back up the right answer. Answering this type of question doesn't prevent a mathematician from earning money. If I replied "I'll answer that for $100 per hour," he would say "well, I didn't care that much."
3. "I have a pretty easy gambling question for you guys, but I'm not really mathematically inclined."
Usually gets an answer very quickly. I am very happy that we don't get condescending answers (for the most part) on here. We enjoy gambling here and we enjoy helping another gambler understand a game.
4. "I've invented a game, but I don't have money to pay for math or I don't want to pay for math."
I might give a little info, just like his lawyer might answer a few questions for free. If I think someone is trying to profit and the math is not novel, it's not worth my time to answer. This is usually when the poster gets told that math from a bonafide mathematician will probably cost you upwards of xxxxx. If the poster is serious, he refinances his house and hires a lawyer and mathematician.
5. "I think this bet is countable, what do you think"
I don't participate, but if the argument has teeth, some big names usually step up just for the challenge. This is a gray area, but if the poster can get some free advice, then good for him.
6. "I have a problem even the Wizard can't solve."
I generally don't bother with riddles, they don't interest me. Nobody charges to answer a riddle either.
Quote: weaselmanAnd how much money do you seriously expect to make on this stuff?
That's not the point. The point is why shoudl the Wizard, or anyone else, work for free? What right have you to any of his time he does not choose to give?
At that someone might set up a micro-payment deal and provide answers only if certain payents are made, wether by the person asking or by someone else. With a money-back guarantee if the answer is wrong.
Quote: NareedThat's not the point. The point is why shoudl the Wizard, or anyone else, work for free?
No, the point is this is not "work". Not for anyone, seriously considering themselves a "mathematician", or even just simply a lay person, somewhat proficient in math.
And also, nobody said they "should" do it for free anyway. Nobody forces him or anyone else to answer the question, right?
Quote:What right have you to any of his time he does not choose to give?
I have no right whatsoever to his time. He is absolutely free to only answer my or anybody else's questions only if and when he chooses to do so.
Quote:At that someone might set up a micro-payment deal and provide answers only if certain payents are made, wether by the person asking or by someone else. With a money-back guarantee if the answer is wrong.
Google answers (and a few other websites) used to have such a scheme (I think, someone mentioned it earlier). It has died of starvation, because apparently (and understandably) nobody was interested in such petty services.
This site is a great resource and has grown in that respect because of the excellent amount of knowledge that our members have.
Why limit it to just math? Some people can get free Spanish lessons here. Some people get free advice on which casinos to visit. Some people get free boyfriend cheating advice. Are we taking money away from Spanish tutors, travel books, and counselors?
Personally, if I feel like I have the math know-how to answer questions, or at least take a stab at them, I welcome it. I move to stretch my brain muscle.
Quote: weaselmanNo, the point is this is not "work". Not for anyone, seriously considering themselves a "mathematician", or even just simply a lay person, somewhat proficient in math.
And also, nobody said they "should" do it for free anyway. Nobody forces him or anyone else to answer the question, right?
No, but it's neither petty nor cehap to be annoyed at being asked to do free work. It's like a doctor constantly being peppered with medical questions outside his office, or a lawyer being asked for free legal advice.
In the interest of full disclosure, as we have doctors and lawyers at the site, too, I've taken advantage of their sweet natures and asked them legal and medical questions. But I asked first if I could present such questions. Forum rules preclude me from saying who they were or what was discussed, but I will say they were both very kind and helpful.
Quote:Google answers (and a few other websites) used to have such a scheme (I think, someone mentioned it earlier). It has died of starvation, because apparently (and understandably) nobody was interested in such petty services.
Because much of that could be found out easily by Googling the web. Oh, the irony! ;)
There was an ep in the very short-lived "It's like, you know" series where Shrug sets up a "Life's Little Mysteries Detective Agency." It was never seen again, so maybe it failed there too. Or maybe it was TV and just forgotten from one ep to the next. If only there was someone we could ask.... :P
Quote: NareedNo, but it's neither petty nor cehap to be annoyed at being asked to do free work.
Maybe not. But it is both petty and cheap, to consider stuff like this "work" in the first place, and demand to be paid for it.
Quote:It's like a doctor constantly being peppered with medical questions outside his office, or a lawyer being asked for free legal advice.
Happens all the time to doctors/lawyers frequenting medical/legal forums respectively. Nothing wrong with that.
If you don't feel like answering for free, you don't answer, simple as that. No reason to be annoyed or angered.
Quote:In the interest of full disclosure, as we have doctors and lawyers at the site, too, I've taken advantage of their sweet natures and asked them legal and medical questions. But I asked first if I could present such questions. Forum rules preclude me from saying who they were or what was discussed, but I will say they were both very kind and helpful.
You are not alone. There is a science thread where science questions are being asked. Wizard had repeatedly asked FrGamble's (and others) opinions on theological questions. There were questions about English and Spanish word etymology, mexican toponymy, astrophysics, patent law, card counting, psychology, literature etc., etc.
Information and knowledge exchange is the purpose of forums. If you don't like to participate, don't read. If you want to participate, but don't want to contribute, read other's answers, but don't answer yourself. Your own free choice.
Quote:Because much of that could be found out easily by Googling the web. Oh, the irony! ;)
Yes. And the reason that it can is that someone thought about asking the question before, and someone else was generous enough to do "the work", and provide the answer (for free - oh, the atrocity!), and publish it on the internet (perhaps, on a forum, just like this one).
Quote:It's like a doctor constantly being peppered with medical questions outside his office, or a lawyer being asked for free legal advice.
MBA 101: it's called MARKETING or ADVERTISING. It's as simple as giving away samples on the street.
Quote: NareedNo, but it's neither petty nor cehap to be annoyed at being asked to do free work. It's like a doctor constantly being peppered with medical questions outside his office, or a lawyer being asked for free legal advice.
Yes, but posting a message on a bulletin board is not the equivalent of you specifically being peppered with requests for free work. If someone called you, emailed you, or scrawled on your windshield with paint, that'd be a direct request. Posting something to the public internet (here, on a blog, or anywhere else) isn't the same thing. I'm sure somewhere on the internet there's someone asking for advice on lots of things I could answer, but I don't take that as a personal affront or a specific request for my time. If someone were to specifically email me and say "hey, do my game math for free", my answer would be no. Only if they did it again would I really become annoyed, but that never happens.
Quote: MathExtremistYes, but posting a message on a bulletin board is not the equivalent of you specifically being peppered with requests for free work.
I'm not disputing that. I dispute the fact that wanting to be apid for such work is petty or cheap, or even unseemly.
But this is the call of the mathematician.
Things that fall into the catagories of
a) You can do this yourself, so let me give you some sites that'll point you in the right direction, and;
b) That's really a bona fide math project, you need a real mathematician for it
should be handled as such, IMO.
Quote: PaigowdanYes, some gratis work is a fine and kind thing to do, and the way to go at times.
But this is the call of the mathematician.
Things that fall into the catagories of
a) You can do this yourself, so let me give you some sites that'll point you in the right direction, and;
b) That's really a bona fide math project, you need a real mathematician for it
should be handled as such, IMO.
I agree. In the situation where I provided "free advertising," Switch had already hired out the math and was asking for some input on his new game. Because I was was interested in the game and I knew it would be a relatively quick thing for me to analyze (not because it was easy, but because I had already programmed a poker analyzer that I knew could be modified to work for his game), I took it on for the challenge. When I posted results, I didn't give a full analysis, but gave a few key pieces that revealed I knew what I was doing. I just looked back at the thread again, and I provided a few additional details that maybe someone else would have charged for, but I'm glad I didn't. That was a fun thread for me.
As for "a)" above, maybe this is the site that will point you in the right direction.
Quote: weaselmanNo, the point is this is not "work". Not for anyone, seriously considering themselves a "mathematician",
Interesting subject. I've said here many times, my daughter
is a college math professor, head of her dept. She hates to
be asked math questions, she usually won't answer outside of
the classroom. You're right, its not 'work' for her to answer,
she can do it easily. I've noticed many 'math people' have a
certain arrogance about what they do. They know most people
suck at math and they look at themselves as 'special', somehow.
They're like performers. It would be rude to ask a professional
singer or comedian to do part of their act just for you, without
you paying them. Many math people feel the same way, its
beneath them to perform without being paid. Mostly I laugh
at them, they think they know everything and you can drive
a truck thru what they don't know about certain things. Very
amusing. I always have a list of probability questions for my
daughter when I see her, because I know she doesn't like
it. But she does it because, well, she has no choice.
It's not sufficient to even jump from one unrelated, though professionally-sanctioned, question/answer to another... the glorified version of the passive game of "peek-a-boo" served up at most of those "home grown", explicitly for-profit sites. Put out the simulating software; methods, etc, thoseselves, which lead up to those riddles, for the others to really "fiddle around with" on their own time. Otherwise, more often than not, we merely aim the already-deluded, get-rich-quick novices to more variants of "Rorschach" reading-random; and "help" them [firm up/amplify] those pre-existing fixations of casino-grandeur. One extreme to another, and all around. Not asking for much, especially over the long-term, and over the course of things. Give up the "auras".
Nor to passively qualify all of that with something like, "Gamblers are going to gamble anyway, so the best we can effectively do is find the best way to lose." Okay, our host(s) have some sort of "inside" with bodog. I get that fair-casino "stuff". But tell us also who bodog is, namely a skank from a family of skanks who must hide his servers from the feds who might just confiscate any money deposited there. I mean, for persons with supposedly so much to do with the casino-industry, "Where's the beef?"
And shouldn't the ultimate objective (from the start) for an internet message-board called the Wizard(s) of Vegas be to demonstrate how to properly play in-real-time the bodogs of the internet, where thay lay? Conflicts-of-interest aside, of course.
Quote: NareedI'm not disputing that. I dispute the fact that wanting to be apid for such work is petty or cheap, or even unseemly.
I would hope nobody thinks that. It's how I make a meaningful portion of my living, and it's not qualitatively different than software engineering (which is what I did before this). In the software world, there is lots of open-source volunteer code written every day, but clients expect to pay for custom or urgent projects. Gaming math isn't much different in that regard. The difference is really in the size of the market: there are probably fewer than 200 professional gaming mathematicians in the world, and probably fewer than two dozen independent ones (and at least five of those are members of this forum). The software engineering market is many orders of magnitude larger.
Quote: EvenBobMany math people feel the same way, its
beneath them to perform without being paid.
Many? So far in this thread, I see one - Paigowdan ... and he actually does not strike me as a real "math person".
1. My math on the design of EZ Pai Gow, Hong Kong Poker and Pai Gow-8 were flawless and spot-on, and were verified by Charles Mousseau.
2. I have 50 tables out without a single casino operator canceling any installs, which is quite a track record for a new casino game.
3. I also use mathematicians to verify my designs, and there was never a re-design needed or error spotted, unlike most game designs sent to a gaming mathematician's desk. This is also quite a track record.
4. Wealelman - what's your track record in terms of game design and its math? Zero games installed?
The criteria I use in my life are the successes based on my game designs and its math, and my checking account balance, and not some snipe or gripe from a fellow board member. Opinions are like *ssholes, everybody's got them, including opinions of me and other board members, etc. Granted, I can be a blunt and rude person at times, this I admit. But I can be very generous, exceedingly so, if I feel one is worthy, and often I do. I have done a lot of game design and help as favors. I do feel that some math questions here abuse the site as a freemath.com type of site, and it should not be that, IMO. A referral to another more math oriented site is not a bad idea at times, to help a person figure something out of his own accord.
What counts is real achievement in the real world of gaming, and that I have got. My game design and math made me quite comfortable in this business, which is something that very few game designers can say. When your track records approaches mine, or your opinions consist of more than snipes, then your opinion might have some gavitas.
Quote: PaigowdanWell, I am a real math person.
1...
2...
3...
That's ok. I did not mean to question your qualifications, as I have no idea whatsoever what they are.
That's all I meant by my statement. All I know about you comes from reading your posts on this forum. Now, some people's posts here do leave the impression like they are written by a "math person", yours do not, that's all.
For example, to snap the way you did at a trivial, simple, newbie question, to claim a primitive combinatorial formula as "IP", and demand to be paid for writing it down, is in my personal opinion uncharacteristic of the kind of personality that I am used to referring to as a "math person".
Also, as a side note, at least in my world, the terms "a casino game designer" and "a math person", are orthogonal (meaning that I don't see any reason why the number of your game installations is supposed to convince me you are a "math person").
Quote:4. Wealelman - what's your track record in terms of game design and its math? Zero games installed?
Weird question. I am not a game designer. Never pretended to be one.
What is your track record in terms of flying Boeing 757? Zero hours I presume?
Quote:The criteria I use in my life are the successes based on my game designs and its math, and my checking account balance, and not some snipe or gripe from a fellow board member.
Well ... it's your right to use whatever criteria you find appropriate.
Quote:then your opinion might have some gavitas.
I think, you are being a tiny bit dishonest with yourself, when, after such a long defensive post in reply to my expressing my personal, not even an opinion so much as just a feeling, you try to convince yourself, that you don't really care. Nah...
Quote: weaselmanThat's ok. I did not mean to question your qualifications, as I have no idea whatsoever what they are.
That's all I meant by my statement. All I know about you comes from reading your posts on this forum. Now, some people's posts here do leave the impression like they are written by a "math person", yours do not, that's all.
No problem, no hard feelings at all. But I do have the qualifications in game design and math. In my previous life I was a software engineer and math teacher. The fact that I do not come off like a math guy is all right with me. I will say that because there is no face-to-face interaction at a forum, and no voice inflections heards, it can sometimes be very hard to gauge a person and his reponse, his intent, through the black-and-white type print of his posts. The first time I met CrystalMath I thought "Hey...this guy's not a chick....." among other conceptions I had of him from the forum, conceptions I had to discard. My mind's eye perception of people from a forum area often turns out to be innacurate once I meet the real people.
Quote: weaselmanFor example, to snap the way you did at a trivial, simple, newbie question, to claim a primitive combinatorial formula as "IP", and demand to be paid for writing it down, is in my personal opinion uncharacteristic of the kind of personality that I am used to referring to as a "math person".
No, not really. There are a lot of requests here that show little initiative, and so a "C'mon, give it a go yourself, try this math site" may be appropriate response, but rude in appearance; there are other requests, more occasional, that ask for more extensive labor that could require a formal math job or even jeopordize IP, because people (including myself) hack out a post without thinking things through.
Quote: weaselmanWeird question. I am not a game designer. Never pretended to be one.
What is your track record in terms of flying Boeing 757? Zero hours I presume?
Not that weird, I think....we are at a gaming industry forum site - and specifically under the "Game Inventors'" area. This area is one of my strengths, my knowledge base. People may not always have the warmest of views of me, but I do know the subject area reasonably well. If you call me rude at times, I will agree, but to say or imply that I am not a game designer and math person is untrue, and something I might consider a snipe in my sometimes rude and sensitive psyche and perceptions.
Add: I in the HELP area, I check to see if a poster stated "I tried to do it, but.." or, "I tried to do it this way...." to see if he gave a stab at it first.
Quote: PaigowdanThe fact that I do not come off like a math guy is all right with me.
Stop makign excuses then.
Quote:
Quote: weaselmanFor example, to snap the way you did at a trivial, simple, newbie question, to claim a primitive combinatorial formula as "IP", and demand to be paid for writing it down, is in my personal opinion uncharacteristic of the kind of personality that I am used to referring to as a "math person".
No, not really.
What "not really"? Are you going to argue with me what my opinion is? :)
Quote:Not that weird, I think....we are at a gaming industry forum site - and specifically under the "Game Inventors'" area.
We are? I was sure I was on a gambling forum site.
I did not bother to check the area of this particular thread ... why did you post it here? Seems kinda off topic ...
Quote:but to say or imply that I am not a game designer and math person is untrue
I did not imply your were not a game designer. I said no such thing. And I see no reason whatsoever to doubt your qualifications in that area.
I maintain that you do not fit my definition of a math person. I am sorry if it upsets you, it is just my unworthy opinion.
Quote: weaselmanWhat "not really"? Are you going to argue with me what my opinion is? :)
Yes, exactly, at least a little bit - we are debating each other's opinions.
Quote: weaselmanWe are (at a gaming forum)?
Yes.
Quote: weaselmanI was sure I was on a gambling forum site.
I did not bother to check the area of this particular thread ... why did you post it here? Seems kinda off topic ...
The math of tables games has to do with how they are designed, invented...were put together. It is related.
Quote: weaselmanI did not imply your were not a game designer. I said no such thing. And I see no reason whatsoever to doubt your qualifications in that area.
I maintain that you do not fit my definition of a math person.
Fine.
Quote: weaselmanit is just my unworthy opinion.
If that's how you describe or think of your input here, you'd be tempting people to agree with you.
Quote: PaigowdanThe first time I met CrystalMath I thought "Hey...this guy's not a chick....." among other conceptions I had of him from the forum, conceptions I had to discard. My mind's eye perception of people from a forum area often turns out to be innacurate once I meet the real people.
This made me chuckle. People in the past have told me they thought I was 20 years older.
Quote: PaigowdanYes, exactly, at least a little bit - we are debating each other's opinions.
But you are not debating my opinion, you are debating what it is.
Quote:The math of tables games has to do with how they are designed, invented...were put together. It is related.
Everything in the world is related this way. I suppose, you could post an opinion about nutrition in this area based on the fact that game designers eat.
However, when you pick a forum area for the post, it is customary to look for the one that fits it most, not just anything that is "related".
This particular one would feel at home in the "Gripes" section ... or, perhaps, in the "Rules", as it pertains to neither games design nor math.
Quote:If that's how you describe or think of your input here, you'd be tempting people to agree with you.
It's not how I describe it, it's how you (I still suspect, a bit insincerely) referred to it earlier.
Quote: PaigowdanThis is turning into a little pissing contest. Wasteful.
Turning? Was it ever anything but?
Quote:Quote: Paigowdan
This is turning into a little pissing contest. Wasteful.
weaselman:
Turning? Was it ever anything but?
Here is a simple math question, and I am asking for free math answers. What is the % of postings that Paigowdan turned into a pissing contest? What % is wasteful? i.e., some contests are informative, thus, should be separated.
Quote: RoyalBJHere is a simple math question, and I am asking for free math answers. What is the % of postings that Paigowdan turned into a pissing contest? What % is wasteful? i.e., some contests are informative, thus, should be separated.
Actually, not too many. And there's a lot of good gaming information (what is a math report....), - which I want to get back to.
He had a point - this was a gripe topic, and it displayed that aspect.
May be, just may be - you wanted everyone to know that game design is a tough business; don't get in it abruptly; leave it to the professionals like yourself (i.e don't attempt to compete because you'll fail and I know it.) Furthermore, you have paid for the math, the lawyers and the distributors, why should any others get any stuff for free. Our unemployment rate is too high as is.Quote: PaigowdanActually, not too many. And there's a lot of good gaming information (what is a math report....), - which I want to get back to.
He had a point - this was a gripe topic, and it displayed that aspect.
Quote: RoyalBJMay be, just may be - you wanted everyone to know that game design is a tough business; don't get in it abruptly; leave it to the professionals like yourself (i.e don't attempt to compete because you'll fail and I know it.) Furthermore, you have paid for the math, the lawyers and the distributors, why should any others get any stuff for free. Our unemployment rate is too high as is.
It really isn't just a question of free stuff, although sometimes it is. For the easy stuff, taking a stab at it yourself should be encouraged.
For serious questions about a game's design (and a lot here try there hand at new games), posting items on it, especially before a patent is filed, can risk loss of the game's IP; that's where the IP point comes in. Even with a patent, if it is discovered that the design migrates away from the patent, then the game's "new shape" might not be covered. Forget about giving game distributors your ideas, or having them counter ways to address your game if it is competition.
Also, for detailed work, you may want to run with a private math report for a gaming submission, and you'd need one in any case. discussing the specs on a thread instead of a PM is riskier, having blueprints displayed. Competitors can clone it, it can be faulted (and get a bad rep) before it gets signed, what have you.
It's a tough business, a rude business, a cut throat business, and as for discussing new games, it is generally best to keep things close to the chest, and have all work professionally done as for the nitty-gritty "nuts and bolts" of a game product.
As for discussions of existing games math and performance (BJ side math and House Edge, the playing parameters of various BJ game offerings, Fire bet payouts, etc.) that's fine
Quote: PaigowdanThere are times when the math questions are folly, or reveal a game's design or jeopordize ownership. That's an issue here, SOOPOO
What about a game designer who has thought out most of math himself but might be hung up on a particular point of logic and may need some clarification? What would be the harm in handling something like that, assuming the developer isn't proprietarily intimate with his idea? Some creators aren't necessarily looking to strike black gold, and only want to put something "iffy" out there.
