DJTeddyBear
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July 12th, 2018 at 6:56:25 AM permalink
Since the Bilsky and Alice decisions make getting game patents nearly impossible, what is everyone doing about game / IP protection?

I've created a new card game, but I don't know what I should do about IP protection.

I suppose I could trademark the name, but then someone could just come up with a different name.

And I could copyright the layout and/or pay tables, but creating alternate layouts and pay tables would not be difficult.

So what can I do?


For the record, my new concept is so simple that I wonder if I could get a patent, even if there weren't any Bilsky / Alice issues....
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
darkoz
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July 12th, 2018 at 7:11:54 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Since the Bilsky and Alice decisions make getting game patents nearly impossible, what is everyone doing about game / IP protection?

I've created a new card game, but I don't know what I should do about IP protection.

I suppose I could trademark the name, but then someone could just come up with a different name.

And I could copyright the layout and/or pay tables, but creating alternate layouts and pay tables would not be difficult.

So what can I do?


For the record, my new concept is so simple that I wonder if I could get a patent, even if there weren't any Bilsky / Alice issues....



Isnt their position that the game only qualifies if it has some mechanical or programmable aspect?

If so why not try making only an E-game version which would require software creation? Claim the software that operates the game is the patentable item?

Just a thought
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DJTeddyBear
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July 12th, 2018 at 7:22:10 AM permalink
Wouldn稚 that leave the plain felt table version unprotected?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
DRich
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July 12th, 2018 at 7:31:03 AM permalink
I agree with DarkOz. Do a prototype PC version and file for a patent. In the description, and in the claims, also mention an incarnation with physical cards. I think that is the best you can do.
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SM777
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July 12th, 2018 at 7:32:49 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Isnt their position that the game only qualifies if it has some mechanical or programmable aspect?



Yes, this is accurate.
darkoz
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July 12th, 2018 at 7:57:32 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Wouldn稚 that leave the plain felt table version unprotected?



Im not a patent attorney but i believe once you have yhe patent you can claim patent violation if someone makes a copy for the plain felt

At least you have enough to scare people with

Ay any rate no one will be able to steal the e-game version which leaves that entire half of the field in your court
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darkoz
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July 12th, 2018 at 8:05:59 AM permalink
I dont know if its apples n oranges but here is one copyright case i read about

Matt wagner created a comic book character named grendel. The comics company publishing the series went into bankruptcy

His character was considerd part of the company assets. Wagner was forbidden from writing or publishing his own creation for years

Here is where im comparing the e-game suggestion

Wagner was forbidden from even writing a simulacrum character. For example he couldnt create a character that dressed and acted in any similar manner just with a different name.

So im thinking if you get a patent on the e-game version that may be enough to protect a table game iteration as you now have an enforceable patent on an iteration or any simulacrum of the game

Of course this is something to confirm with your patent attorney
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beachbumbabs
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July 12th, 2018 at 8:13:59 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Im not a patent attorney but i believe once you have yhe patent you can claim patent violation if someone makes a copy for the plain felt

At least you have enough to scare people with

Ay any rate no one will be able to steal the e-game version which leaves that entire half of the field in your court



No, you need to take the steps to write up mechanical (felt) play and e-game or digital play in the same patent application. Don't leave that out. My advice based on 6 drafts and many thousands of dollars for the non-provisional legalese. All variations, all potential paytables, all HE mechanisms should be described in agonizing and minute detail.

My extremely simple game (if i recall correctly) makes 27 claims and runs 43 pages in its latest iteration.

When I filed the provisional, I included all my work notes and drawings, table card, math, and marketing claims. (Actually, i amended it twice as new aspects came up, before the lawyers took over. You can do that without disturbing the original protection date if you're careful.)

This helped protect all iterations as of that date, and pending (you have 1 year) the lawyers turning my notes into a proper document. And they required copies of everything to make sure they had as much info to work with as possible in finding unique IP to claim.

I would highly recommend you do it the same way. But start with advice from Rich, of course, (I mention him because i know you know him) who advised me on doing it.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
beachbumbabs
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July 12th, 2018 at 8:20:57 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

I dont know if its apples n oranges but here is one copyright case i read about

Matt wagner created a comic book character named grendel. The comics company publishing the series went into bankruptcy

His character was considerd part of the company assets. Wagner was forbidden from writing or publishing his own creation for years

Here is where im comparing the e-game suggestion

Wagner was forbidden from even writing a simulacrum character. For example he couldnt create a character that dressed and acted in any similar manner just with a different name.

So im thinking if you get a patent on the e-game version that may be enough to protect a table game iteration as you now have an enforceable patent on an iteration or any simulacrum of the game

Of course this is something to confirm with your patent attorney



Sorry, but it doesn't work that way in gaming, at least in my experience. See my post above.

Also, my dad had 14 patents approved as a box designer. However, they were all work product, so the patents were assigned to the company, as you note. Something to consider, especially if negotiating with a distributor. Mine structured 2 deals, one where they bought the IP outright, the other where they leased the game. So that may be a choice in the future.

Some of Dad's designs, patented in the early 1960s, are still in use today. A nice legacy, even if it is without royalties.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
FleaStiff
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July 12th, 2018 at 8:22:19 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Since the Bilsky and Alice decisions make getting game patents nearly impossible, . . .

Since I have neither heard of nor read these decisions I really should keep my yap shut but you might think about the layout. If the casino table's layout as mandated by simplicity and surveillance rules is under some sort of protection, then you might be able to exclude copycats using the same text and physical layout orientation.

Agree that a game's name offers little protection. Casinos that do trials often alter the name of the game anyway. A publisher rarely grants a writer any control over the title of a novel or the cover art.

I wish all game developers the best of luck but it seems the law never offered much protection against market forces and now offers even less.

If you build a better mousetrap, the world will yawn... and then try to copy it for free.
darkoz
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July 12th, 2018 at 8:40:52 AM permalink
Quote: beachbumbabs

No, you need to take the steps to write up mechanical (felt) play and e-game or digital play in the same patent application. Don't leave that out. My advice based on 6 drafts and many thousands of dollars for the non-provisional legalese. All variations, all potential paytables, all HE mechanisms should be described in agonizing and minute detail.

My extremely simple game (if i recall correctly) makes 27 claims and runs 43 pages in its latest iteration.

When I filed the provisional, I included all my work notes and drawings, table card, math, and marketing claims. (Actually, i amended it twice as new aspects came up, before the lawyers took over. You can do that without disturbing the original protection date if you're careful.)

This helped protect all iterations as of that date, and pending (you have 1 year) the lawyers turning my notes into a proper document. And they required copies of everything to make sure they had as much info to work with as possible in finding unique IP to claim.

I would highly recommend you do it the same way. But start with advice from Rich, of course, (I mention him because i know you know him) who advised me on doing it.



I totally agree

Perhaps I had oversimplified it

The minutiae and details of every aspect including potential table gane versions must be included in the egame patent application.

That still may not be enough

But it is a huge weapon to have a patent claim which can be used with authority

If someone creates a table felt version cease and desist letters with claims of patent are very powerful

Fighting those means hiring attorneys, long court battles, and possibly the game(table version) from being distributed until the outcome (while the e-game patent allows the game to be popularized and become a money earner for the patent holder during any litigation)

That should be enough to scare away copycats was what I was trying to get at
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Sandybestdog
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July 12th, 2018 at 8:40:55 AM permalink
I don稚 know anything about this stuff but it seems a patent/copyright doesn稚 mean much. Galaxy Gaming literally copies every one of Shufflemasters table games. Their latest Spanish 21 version literally copies the whole game but changes one payout. I致e seen a number of casinos switch their games to the Galaxy version, presumably because their license fee is less. Doesn稚 seem right.
darkoz
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July 12th, 2018 at 8:44:46 AM permalink
Quote: Sandybestdog

I don稚 know anything about this stuff but it seems a patent/copyright doesn稚 mean much. Galaxy Gaming literally copies every one of Shufflemasters table games. Their latest Spanish 21 version literally copies the whole game but changes one payout. I致e seen a number of casinos switch their games to the Galaxy version, presumably because their license fee is less. Doesn稚 seem right.



Are you certain one company isnt paying the other a patent license fee for their iteration?
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SM777
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July 12th, 2018 at 8:46:26 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Are you certain one company isnt paying the other a patent license fee for their iteration?



Yes, that is certain.

All of those games being copied have no patents, and that is the problem. Galaxy just copies, and charges less.

Although to be fair, it seems the other way around. Shufflemaster finally made a copy of their own with Tri lux and it is popping up all over. Maybe charging less than 21+3 and giving Galaxy a taste of their own medicine?
darkoz
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July 12th, 2018 at 9:24:28 AM permalink
Quote: SM777

Yes, that is certain.

All of those games being copied have no patents, and that is the problem. Galaxy just copies, and charges less.

Although to be fair, it seems the other way around. Shufflemaster finally made a copy of their own with Tri lux and it is popping up all over. Maybe charging less than 21+3 and giving Galaxy a taste of their own medicine?



Im confused i thought you said a patent didnt mean much?

If the games have no patent then there naturally is no protection
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mcallister3200
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July 12th, 2018 at 9:43:24 AM permalink
95% of galaxy痴 table games offerings are shufflemaster games with a sidebet or two added, or a minor paytable tweak. It痴 an obviously shameless, pathetic way of doing things but it痴 also obviously working for them looking at pits across the US. Yeah, shufflemaster did the same thing with a few from galaxy think it痴 just the way that business operates, lucky ladies, tri-lux, (hcf?) but it痴 not literally 90%+ of their offerings like galaxy.
SM777
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July 12th, 2018 at 9:50:00 AM permalink
Quote: darkoz

Im confused i thought you said a patent didnt mean much?

If the games have no patent then there naturally is no protection



When did I say this?

A patent on a felt table game is currently impossible to get unless there's a mechanical device or special deck of cards (as you mentioned). Hopefully this changes soon.

So from my view, pouring money and time into useless lawyers and experts is a horrendous idea. The result will end up in no patent.
Paradigm
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July 12th, 2018 at 10:33:05 AM permalink
Quote: mcallister3200

95% of galaxy痴 table games offerings are shufflemaster games with a sidebet or two added, or a minor paytable tweak. It痴 an obviously shameless, pathetic way of doing things but it痴 also obviously working for them looking at pits across the US. Yeah, shufflemaster did the same thing with a few from galaxy think it痴 just the way that business operates, lucky ladies, tri-lux, (hcf?) but it痴 not literally 90%+ of their offerings like galaxy.


How do you arrive at the "95%"/"literally 90%+" figures you cited above?
darkoz
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July 12th, 2018 at 10:56:34 AM permalink
Quote: SM777

When did I say this?

A patent on a felt table game is currently impossible to get unless there's a mechanical device or special deck of cards (as you mentioned). Hopefully this changes soon.

So from my view, pouring money and time into useless lawyers and experts is a horrendous idea. The result will end up in no patent.



Sorry

Sandybestdog said patents dont mean much

Then i responded to him. You responded to me

You get the mixup
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dogqck
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July 12th, 2018 at 2:02:29 PM permalink
" The method of claim 1 wherein the method is executed on physical gaming table with physical playing cards provided from a physically randomized set of physical playing cards and the wager is committed by placement of a physical element on a wagering wager at the player position in an area on the gaming table identified for receiving committed wagers, and the specific predetermined value is between 7 and 11. "

Claim 3 of this just issued patent. Anybody care to comment ?

United States Patent Application 20180182211
Kind Code A1
Stream; Matthew Henry June 28, 2018


RAPID LOW TOTAL-CARD BLACKJACK-TYPE GAME
DRich
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July 12th, 2018 at 2:28:59 PM permalink
Quote: dogqck



Claim 3 of this just issued patent. Anybody care to comment ?



Yes, the best way to write patents is to copy already issued patents and change as little as necessary. There is no copyright or plagiarism for patents. That can make for a cheap way to do your own patents if you can't afford a patent attorney.
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Paradigm
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July 12th, 2018 at 3:08:38 PM permalink
Quote: dogqck

" The method of claim 1 wherein the method is executed on physical gaming table with physical playing cards provided from a physically randomized set of physical playing cards and the wager is committed by placement of a physical element on a wagering wager at the player position in an area on the gaming table identified for receiving committed wagers, and the specific predetermined value is between 7 and 11. "

Claim 3 of this just issued patent. Anybody care to comment ?

United States Patent Application 20180182211
Kind Code A1
Stream; Matthew Henry June 28, 2018


RAPID LOW TOTAL-CARD BLACKJACK-TYPE GAME


This appears to be a new patent APPLICATION that has not undergone USPTO examination. Claim 3 will be disallowed under examination as relating to abstract matter and unpatentable under Section 101.
dogqck
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July 12th, 2018 at 3:19:41 PM permalink
Quote: Paradigm

This appears to be a new patent APPLICATION that has not undergone USPTO examination. Claim 3 will be disallowed under examination as relating to abstract matter and unpatentable under Section 101.



Once again you are correct sir!

Correspondence Address Customer Number: 97462
Filing or 371 (c) Date: 12-11-2017 Status: Docketed New Case - Ready for Examination
Application Type: Utility Status Date: 02-06-2018
Examiner Name: HU, KANG Location: What is a Location? ELECTRONIC
Group Art Unit: 3717 Location Date: -
Confirmation Number: 1076 Earliest Publication No: US 2018-0182211 A1
Attorney Docket Number: 777_746US1 Earliest Publication Date: 06-28-2018
Class / Subclass: 463/016 Patent Number: -
First Named Inventor: Matthew Henry Stream , Las Vegas, NV all Inventors Issue Date of Patent: -
First Named Applicant: - International Registration Number (Hague): -
Entity Status: Small International Registration Publication Date: -
AIA (First Inventor to File): Yes
DJTeddyBear
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July 12th, 2018 at 3:57:18 PM permalink
Thanks for the info.



FYI. I got a PM response on the subject. The advice wasn稚 exactly earth shattering so I don稚 know why it was sent as a PM rather than publicly posted.

At any rate, the advice was basically to copyright everything. Procedure manuals, table layouts, rack cards (player instructions), pay tables, etc.

Not sure how useful copyrights would be but I believe they are relatively cheap and easy to obtain.
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
SM777
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July 12th, 2018 at 6:24:13 PM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

Thanks for the info.



FYI. I got a PM response on the subject. The advice wasn稚 exactly earth shattering so I don稚 know why it was sent as a PM rather than publicly posted.

At any rate, the advice was basically to copyright everything. Procedure manuals, table layouts, rack cards (player instructions), pay tables, etc.

Not sure how useful copyrights would be but I believe they are relatively cheap and easy to obtain.



Anyone advising you to spend money "protecting" you game isn't doing you any favors.
dogqck
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July 12th, 2018 at 6:37:53 PM permalink
Quote: SM777

Anyone advising you to spend money "protecting" you game isn't doing you any favors.




cOLD sHOT. cARE TO EXPLAIN JUST ASKING ?
SM777
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July 12th, 2018 at 6:48:45 PM permalink
It's just a waste of money, and it's unfortunate that is the state of the industry right now. Since getting a patent is impossible, you're not protecting anything. As Teddy Bear mentioned already, you can copyright/trademark whatever you want, but if I wanted I could just change the name, and make the layout look slightly different. It's silly, but that's just the way it is right now.

So, putting money into these things, in a industry where Shufflemater fails to get to 20 installs on 95% of their games, is just dumb.

It's a losing ROI every single time.
dogqck
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July 12th, 2018 at 7:33:04 PM permalink
Y know it's a gamble, but so is life. Not doubting you but failing to get 20 installs on 95% of their games. Not aware they have that many table games in their arsenal. Usually Mike has an analysis on any new table game placement. Just don't remember seeing very many SHFL table games placed in the last few years or even on their product list. Correct me if I am wrong, I am wrong quite a bit,
beachbumbabs
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July 12th, 2018 at 7:36:51 PM permalink
Quote: dogqck

Y know it's a gamble, but so is life. Not doubting you but failing to get 20 installs on 95% of their games. Not aware they have that many table games in their arsenal. Usually Mike has an analysis on any new table game placement. Just don't remember seeing very many SHFL table games placed in the last few years or even on their product list. Correct me if I am wrong, I am wrong quite a bit,



They have a huge catalog. Mostly shelved (not actively being sold by the sales force) because the casinos aren't picking them up, but any that ask for one can get it installed. I would guess roughly 75-80 games floor-ready, several very good. If you go to the scientific games website, they have maybe 30 listed last I looked.
If the House lost every hand, they wouldn't deal the game.
dogqck
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July 12th, 2018 at 7:52:17 PM permalink
I just cant accept the 95% don't get 20 placements. Roger and Elliot don't buy that many losers. On SHFL site 11 BJ side bets and pretty sure 6 have over 20 placements. 11 variant BJ and 5 for sure have 20. 14 specialty games with 8-9 getting placements. 4 poker games at least 2 have placements. I doubt SHFL has 400 losers they tried to place.
Besides as a micro entity, cost Teddy $70 to file PPA. Not exactly a fortune.
DJTeddyBear
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July 13th, 2018 at 3:22:08 AM permalink
Quote: dogqck

Besides as a micro entity, cost Teddy $70 to file PPA. Not exactly a fortune.

PPA? You mean a Provisional Patent Application?

Sure, they池e cheap, but worthless if not followed up by an expensive patent within 1 year. And since the patent will probably never be issued, what痴 the point?
I invented a few casino games. Info: http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/ 覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧覧 Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
SM777
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July 13th, 2018 at 5:50:46 AM permalink
Quote: dogqck

I just cant accept the 95% don't get 20 placements. Roger and Elliot don't buy that many losers. On SHFL site 11 BJ side bets and pretty sure 6 have over 20 placements. 11 variant BJ and 5 for sure have 20. 14 specialty games with 8-9 getting placements. 4 poker games at least 2 have placements. I doubt SHFL has 400 losers they tried to place.
Besides as a micro entity, cost Teddy $70 to file PPA. Not exactly a fortune.



It's likely higher than 95%. I was being generous.

A majority get 1 or 2 placements, then disappear. They don't buy all of them, most are created internally. I'm not counting BJ sidebets.
dogqck
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July 13th, 2018 at 8:22:47 AM permalink
Quote: DJTeddyBear

PPA? You mean a Provisional Patent Application?

Sure, they池e cheap, but worthless if not followed up by an expensive patent within 1 year. And since the patent will probably never be issued, what痴 the point?




Then what do you expect to show a potential distributor like SHFL ?
darkoz
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July 13th, 2018 at 8:27:22 AM permalink
Quote: dogqck

Then what do you expect to show a potential distributor like SHFL ?



I have to agree

Its cheap so can't hurt

And protects you for 12 months while you shop it around

Certainly some small protection is better than none at all
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ahiromu
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July 13th, 2018 at 1:18:56 PM permalink
Quote: dogqck

" The method of claim 1 wherein the method is executed on physical gaming table with physical playing cards provided from a physically randomized set of physical playing cards and the wager is committed by placement of a physical element on a wagering wager at the player position in an area on the gaming table identified for receiving committed wagers, and the specific predetermined value is between 7 and 11. "

Claim 3 of this just issued patent. Anybody care to comment ?

United States Patent Application 20180182211
Kind Code A1
Stream; Matthew Henry June 28, 2018


RAPID LOW TOTAL-CARD BLACKJACK-TYPE GAME



That's a publication, not a patent. If the independent claim recites performing it on an electronic device you may have 112 2nd and 4th issues. I don't feel comfortable getting more specific.

Once again, those are not issued claims unless you accidentally wrote the wrong number.
Its - Possessive; It's - "It is" / "It has"; There - Location; Their - Possessive; They're - "They are"
dogqck
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MrCasinoGames
July 13th, 2018 at 1:37:40 PM permalink
I am sure not suggesting anyone take out a second mortgage to finance a table game or side bet. But some will do for sure. May find one or two of them at Raving games. I mention SHFL only because they are definitely the 800 lb. Gorilla in the room. I know Blackjack Switch got a dozen or more ( maybe the magic 20 referred to earlier ) in Colorado That's felt. great overhead signange, rack cards, dealer training, etc. On a game that ultimately failed. Contrast with Mr. Casino's Games struggle to get placement in USA brick and mortars. He is a prolific game inventor.
Then there is Brent Weiss and his valiant attempts to gain traction.
Wizard
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MrCasinoGames
July 13th, 2018 at 2:46:56 PM permalink
I would start out by trademarking the name and doing a provisional patent. The provisional should try to connect it to physical things any way it can, like a computer or gaming machine. Throw every claim you think of in the first application. The patent office will disallow lots of them on the first review. You will probably never get a patent but can fight it through the "pending" stage for years. Still, even with a patent, if the game gets big, there is little to stop anyone from changing the name, adding a side bet, and running with it. You'd pay enormous legal fees to fight it and would probably lose. It has become a game where you want the game to get big enough to make money but not too big to get copied.

My very short advice is I would just stay out of this arena, unless you have special connections to get your games on the floor. If you must invent games, stick to electronic ones.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
MrCasinoGames
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July 14th, 2018 at 12:19:56 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I would start out by trademarking the name and doing a provisional patent. The provisional should try to connect it to physical things any way it can, like a computer or gaming machine. Throw every claim you think of in the first application. The patent office will disallow lots of them on the first review. You will probably never get a patent but can fight it through the "pending" stage for years. Still, even with a patent, if the game gets big, there is little to stop anyone from changing the name, adding a side bet, and running with it. You'd pay enormous legal fees to fight it and would probably lose. It has become a game where you want the game to get big enough to make money but not too big to get copied.

My very short advice is I would just stay out of this arena, unless you have special connections to get your games on the floor. If you must invent games, stick to electronic ones.


Great Advice, Wizard.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
dogqck
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July 14th, 2018 at 12:43:56 PM permalink
Aren't most table games available and increasing their presence in casino's in an electronic form. Bubble craps, electronic roulette, stadium blackjack, etc.
darkoz
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July 14th, 2018 at 1:13:51 PM permalink
Quote: dogqck

Aren't most table games available and increasing their presence in casino's in an electronic form. Bubble craps, electronic roulette, stadium blackjack, etc.



There is always a feeling of history and romance and daresay conservatism in any field changing its delivery status

Just for example:

Filmmakers want that theatrical release - straight to video is a downgrade

For years shooting on film was professional. Shooting video or smaller film guage was looked down upon

Table game developers have the same opinion of what their games should have as respectful representation
For Whom the bus tolls; The bus tolls for thee
dogqck
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July 14th, 2018 at 2:55:52 PM permalink
Electronic Roulette is here to stay as it allows players to split that minimum $5 bet on numbers , colors, etc. Jury still out on Stadium Blackjack. Mostly a tax play in PA. I remember 2008 when Pokertex debuted at Excalibur. Mike Sexton said it was the wave of the future and predicted all Vegas room would have only electronic tables only in the near future.
I read a blurb somewhere about Stadium Blackjack being so popular that Venetian sent 22 of the 44 tables to Pilazzo. I think if games was that popular, Pilazzo would have order 44 for themselves. Plus I believe slots replaced those 22 tables at Venetian.
shrimpboatcapt
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May 4th, 2019 at 11:18:47 AM permalink
RIP Dan. He was always fast to help a fellow inventor.

Been out of the design game for a bit, and got the itch again. I'm working on a new concept that I have created a custom playing deck for, and added (forced) some digital gameplay elements. Are they granting game patents again or is it still the same ol' bs?
MrCasinoGames
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May 7th, 2019 at 9:28:17 AM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

RIP Dan. He was always fast to help a fellow inventor.

Been out of the design game for a bit, and got the itch again. I'm working on a new concept that I have created a custom playing deck for, and added (forced) some digital gameplay elements. Are they granting game patents again or is it still the same ol' bs?


As far as I know it is still the same.
Stephen Au-Yeung (Legend of New Table Games®) NewTableGames.com
RealizeGaming
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May 14th, 2019 at 11:11:08 AM permalink
Quote: Wizard

I would start out by trademarking the name and doing a provisional patent. The provisional should try to connect it to physical things any way it can, like a computer or gaming machine. Throw every claim you think of in the first application. The patent office will disallow lots of them on the first review. You will probably never get a patent but can fight it through the "pending" stage for years. Still, even with a patent, if the game gets big, there is little to stop anyone from changing the name, adding a side bet, and running with it. You'd pay enormous legal fees to fight it and would probably lose. It has become a game where you want the game to get big enough to make money but not too big to get copied.

My very short advice is I would just stay out of this arena, unless you have special connections to get your games on the floor. If you must invent games, stick to electronic ones.



I also agree with what the Wizard is saying for the most part. We have been able to get a number of patents and even won two appeals over the last couple of years. The only problem with keeping it in the pending stages is that it gets very costly. Even with the pending title, you are still playing with a limited amount of time. You can always refile the game at certain points of the process if you get stuck in the entire process, but once again, it gets very expensive in a hurry.
RealizeGaming
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May 14th, 2019 at 11:12:55 AM permalink
Quote: shrimpboatcapt

RIP Dan. He was always fast to help a fellow inventor.

Been out of the design game for a bit, and got the itch again. I'm working on a new concept that I have created a custom playing deck for, and added (forced) some digital gameplay elements. Are they granting game patents again or is it still the same ol' bs?



If you are changing the standard deck of cards for your game, I like your chances of getting a patent allowed.
Dobrij
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May 14th, 2019 at 12:33:24 PM permalink
Hello!
I don稚 know, don `t know ... maybe in countries like the United States, Britain, Australia, and it is possible to protect the rights to the game, but in the countries of the former USSR and Europe in my opinion at the moment it is impossible. Games for land and online casinos are copied constantly. It was especially fun to find out when a well-known company patented the game Russian Poker, naming it Lunar Poker.

I, as a game developer, are certainly angry. But on the other hand, it can be good in the modern world. Imagine that there will be a person who will prove that he owns the rights to the game of "roulette", and that all casinos will have to transfer him a percentage of income/GGR?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I think it痴 better for a game developer to pre-negotiate with a casino operator
billryan
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May 14th, 2019 at 12:52:26 PM permalink
Sometimes having a patent is worse than not having one. I've seen many a company pretty much go broke defending patents. It sometimes comes down to do you want to sell product or do you want to pay lawyers to stop someone else from selling the product.
The difference between fiction and reality is that fiction is supposed to make sense.
DRich
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May 14th, 2019 at 2:43:28 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Sometimes having a patent is worse than not having one. I've seen many a company pretty much go broke defending patents. It sometimes comes down to do you want to sell product or do you want to pay lawyers to stop someone else from selling the product.



That is why most patent disputes are resolved without the court system.
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
RealizeGaming
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May 14th, 2019 at 3:36:17 PM permalink
I've always heard that was the case. Most companies don't want to get involved in defending patents as it can be very costly for both sides. I found it very curious that a number of companies have reached out to me asking if others have infringed on any of my games. I almost felt as if some of these third party companies want to go against the bigger companies. Has anyone else seen or experienced this?
UCivan
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May 23rd, 2019 at 10:07:57 AM permalink
High Card Flush: AGS vs Galaxy in court; AGS budgeted $1 M for the legal case and Galaxy won.

Flush Rush by SHFL/SG. Similar concept? No one brought up the case anywhere? If you have over $1M, do it.
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