Bonus Discard Poker - Early build, still a work in progress

We are currently working on our next video poker game called Bonus Discard Poker and we wanted to post an early build to get some feedback on it.

The game is played by choosing the cards you want to hold to the primary hand and the remaining cards stay in the secondary hand. On the draw, the remaining cards from the deck are dealt into the open spaces in the primary and secondary hands. Winning hands in the primary hand are multiplied by wins in the secondary hand. The secondary hand acts as a multiplier for the game by creating the best 3 card out of 5 card hand.



Please give it a try and let me know what you think.

A few notes:
-The game build is Jacks or Better and the original math was completed by CrystalMath. The game comes with 3 different discard bonus multiplier pay scales.
-The wager will actually require a 5 coin base bet and an additional 5 coin bonus bet. The current games shows 5 + 10.

http://realizegamingllc.com/dev/discardPoker/

[A few notes:
-The game build is Jacks or Better /

Why the title is DDB?

I like the game
Fun and innovation!
Great mind!

So I'm not primarily a VP player, so take my opinion with that in mind--

I found it tremendously dreary. I did manage to play down the entire 1000, but around 400, I found myself thinking that it'd be easier if I could just lose faster and post my opinion instead of suffering through this longer. My burn rate, playing strategy similar to JoB, was unpleasantly high, and I was receiving quite a few SFs on the multiplier, backed up with a nothing hand, which is also emotionally negative.

Even 5+5 games feel like a stretch to me (though I see that UX is fairly popular), and 5+10 just knocks it straight out.

Edit: I just ran another round back down to ~500... I made money on 6 hands-- 3OAK-3OAK, 3OAK-SF, 2x2P-F, 2P-S... this thing must have astronomical variance... not my cup of tea, still.

Gotta agree with Venthus.
Either the correct strategy is extremely counter-intuitive, or the volatility is insanely high. Feels like you are playing a game with a RTP of 60%.

Nice Game.

We should have the title changed soon. Keep checking back.

Thanks for the feedback Venthus.

Once we adjust the bet to the 5 + 5 format, maybe that will change your experience to a more positive one. You can also try changing the multiplier to one of three different pay scales by clicking on the arrow under the pay scale which may also provide you with a better playing experience.

You may also enjoy the three hand option once we get to it!

Anyway, I appreciate you taking the time to provide your thoughts.

We will have an update very soon to adjust the RTP to something much more player friendly.

Another thing I don't quite get is why JoB is listed as a 1*; at first it made me thing that not having a JoB+ on the multiplier hand meant I got no payout at all, then I thought it was a +1x, but that doesn't seem to be the case either. A high pair in the multiplier hand is the same as having nothing.

We are working on the best way to separate the two pay scales to make it less confusing for the player. The discard hand is actually a x1 multiplier for any pair according to the math we are using for the Jack's or better game. We should have an update very soon.

I played it a couple of different times without hitting anything of notice, while watching the credit meter scroll downward ever so fast.

It kind of seems like there is a fundamental problem with the game. If you hit something good on the draw then you're left with fill-ins on the bottom line that may or may not match up for a multiplier, (but probably NOT). If you don't have squat on the initial draw then you have to pray something good fills in on the top, but you still got the crap on the bottom.

I'm sure the math works on it but I doubt I'd ever play it for real, even though it is an interesting concept.

Pass.

I appreciate all the feedback from everyone. An update will be posted soon. I know we have several adjustments on the way and we will have a double double bonus and a three hand version coming soon.

Even with the payable change, I find it not to my liking.

I do think the strategy is affected some by the possible multiplier in the 3 card hand. If you're holding 2 job offsuit, and 1 matches 2 other cards for a flush, it seems worth holding the flush below, with the 5th card, and trying to get something up top.

It also seems like, with total garbage, it might be worth keeping 2 middle suited /touching cards in the lower hand and trying to catch both sides, with a sf possible below, 2 pr or something above.

A few problems for me..... The basic strategy is not intuitive. Not exactly sure when you should not play basic JOB strategy to improve likelihood of a multiplier. As mentioned by BBB. Also, the number of hands I "win" $5 or $10 which is actually a loss is unpleasant. And the number of times I get the happy music because I hit a multiplier even though the base game is a loss is annoying. The overall feel is that you do not have a realistic chance to win. I am not sure how you change that.

The game has been updated on the opening post or you can play it here:
http://realizegamingllc.com/dev/discardPoker/

A few highlights
-separated the two pay scales with a toggle button (option to use three different discard pay scales)
-bet amount adjusted to 5 + 5
-sound adjusted

Feel free to share your thoughts on the update.

Here's a hand where I made a huge strategy mistake.



I was dealt the 4oak with the 5c. I moved the quads but left the kicker below. The 4's, and the 4c specifically, were penalty cards for the 5, so stupid to leave it behind, but even if they weren't, there's no difference in the 4oak kicker pay for job. I might as well draw 5 to make 3.

As you can see, there were trips dealt in the next 5 cards, but I wasted a 3 as the kicker, so missed out on 1k for the 4oak I was going to get anyway.

O.o

The other part that's funny is, the next 5 cards were a FH. Had I left all 5 cards on the bottom, I would have had a FH up, multiplied by 3oak. Nobody is ever going to do that except by accident with dealt quads, but it was worth 40x8=320, rather than the $125 I ended up with.

If I could change 1 thing, it's that no pair of any rank below is worth anything. Since the pays are FOR 1, not 1:1, and the 3rd hand is not mandatory to get the pay above it, it's almost insulting to look at a "pair x1" when it pays no differently than junk.

Certainly cognitive dissonance with the pair plus bet it echoes in the 3CP table game. Couldn't you code a pair as a push and pay the money back, rather than indicating a useless multiplier? Only on top line wins, not all below hands. Or even a blackjack pay of 3 FOR 2. Something where a pair isn't worthless.

I do realize you're playing best 3 of 5, not best 3 of 3, so the odds have to be lower with the hit rate higher. Perhaps 3 for 2 for a straight to compensate? (I'm assuming best 3 of 5 is easier straight than flush, unlike 3 of 3. I could be wrong, but I don't think it's even close)

Thanks for providing your thoughts beachbumbabs.

When I first came up with the game a long time ago I originally didn't have the discard hand as a multiplier. It was just a second hand totally independent of the first hand. Over a number of trials I decided to use the discard hand as a multiplier. My goal was to create a game to take advantage of the useless discards in a poker hand. I had no intentions of players ever thinking of a strategy outside of the basic strategy most vp player use. To accomplish this I decided to make the game dependent on the outcome of the main hand. The player must win in the main hand in order to take advantage of any multipliers in the secondary hand.

We almost needed to keep the x1 in the discard hand since we wrote the patent as "wins in the primary hands are multiplied by wins in the discard hand." I do agree it is frustrating to get a x16 in the discard hand and no wins in the main hand to take advantage of it. It also feels good once you get a nice win and a multiplier to go with it.

I made a mistake talking to a company and pitching the game as not involving a change in basic strategy. The more and more I play, the more I find myself questioning the strategy I'm using. I thought the requirement of winning in the main hand would prevent the basic strategy from changing too much......I may be wrong on that!

Good point about the three card paytable, beachbumbabs. You are correct, using the best three out of five cards can make the straights harder to obtain than flushes. Have you used the different discard pay tables? Do you like one better than the others?

Here is an early look at the double double bonus version of the game.

http://www.realizegamingllc.com/demo/discardPokerDDB/

The math still needs to be adjusted on this, but it will give you an idea of how the game plays.

Interesting concept. The one thing I'm not crazy about is the lower hand being the best 3 out of 5 cards. It doesn't seem intrinsic to video poker. I know it would be tough to get something good in both hands if all five cards were required.

One idea I'd like to at least raise up the flagpole is to make the bottom hand based on all five cards but not charge a full 10 credits. Perhaps you could swing it with just seven coins. I would also consider paying both hands against the same pay table and just adding the wins.

Please keep in mind I'm not saying my ideas are improvements but just thoughts off the top of my head.

I like this game, so far. The decisions are occasionally challenging. I have managed to maintain above $1000 for some time now.

It is very confusing at 1st -which hand was the discard? the two pay tables, etc. I figured it out eventually

It occurred to me this is similar to Big Split Poker:

http://www.ledgaming.com/game/big_split_poker

It isn't the same of course, but the two pay tables they use are quite a bit different from conventional tables.

I just mention it because I didn't know if you were aware of the game, and that it might help you find solutions to criticisms brought up in this thread.

Quote: Wizard

Interesting concept. The one thing I'm not crazy about is the lower hand being the best 3 out of 5 cards. It doesn't seem intrinsic to video poker. I know it would be tough to get something good in both hands if all five cards were required.

One idea I'd like to at least raise up the flagpole is to make the bottom hand based on all five cards but not charge a full 10 credits. Perhaps you could swing it with just seven coins. I would also consider paying both hands against the same pay table and just adding the wins.

Originally I used all five cards as the secondary hand, but I found out very quickly that it was very tough to get enough wins to hold my interest. I do have the ability to use five, four, three, etc cards in the secondary hand, but using the 3 out of 5 seems to provide the best action. I also looked at the idea of using both hands as two separate poker hands, but there is a good amount of prior art on that concept.

Quote: Wizard

Please keep in mind I'm not saying my ideas are improvements but just thoughts off the top of my head.

I appreciate you taking the time to share you thoughts!

Thanks gordonm888. I thought about adding a label to denote the main and secondary hands which may make it easier for the first time player. I also want to be careful not to over clutter the screen. I do like the separate toggle button for the pay scales as I found the combined pay scale confusing...even though I was the one who created the game!

Thanks Hullabaloo.

It does have some similarities to Big Split Poker. I don't think Bonus Discard requires quite as much thought for each hand when compared to Big Split but it does require some thinking.

Quote: RealizeGaming

Thanks Hullabaloo.

It does have some similarities to Big Split Poker. I don't think Bonus Discard requires quite as much thought for each hand when compared to Big Split but it does require some thinking.

I think that's the biggest drawback " it does require some thinking ".

We are still working on the math for the double double bonus version of the game, but wanted to show you the early look at the three hand version.

http://www.realizegamingllc.com/dev/tripleBDP/

I posted some questions in the VP forum about the animation of the cards and how they are revealed in the hand and would love to hear what everyone thinks.

After playing it awhile, I didn't mind it as much.

I'm once again going back and playing some of my earlier games and wanted to share a nice win. It's always exciting to see good winning hands.

Demo: https://www.realizegamingllc.com/demo/tripleBDP2/