Cutting Edge is a must for independent game developers

In years past i have been hesitant about entering COU in this event but in an effort to put a jolt in our progression towards our goal of having COU played in as many jurisdictions as possible i opted to go fo it this year. I could be wrong but i believe it was a member of this forum that said it would not take long for us to figure out what the casino executives thought of our game and like is often the case in this forum, that person was correct.

The game received an absolutely incredible response. Attending the event ended up being the single most important even in our journey thus far. We now have four new jurisdictions to file for applications in w trials requested in California, Washington, Arizona and Colorado. Of those Colorado appears to be the toughest of the group in terms of the approval process but all 4 will be commenced Monday morning.

Special thanks to Wayne Jones who did our dealing and is also an indispensable part of our team. He may not have been as pretty as some of the ladies that were dealing but I guarantee he was the best at his craft at the show. I also need to thank my new partner for ETG’s David Haag of Poker Games Interactive LLC who was able to get the program written in time so that we had a touch screen in our booth so people could get an idea of what the stadium ETG will be like. Last but not least special thanks to my partner Joe Muzio who got the Android app done which made us the only game at the show that can be played in 5 different platforms; brick and mortar, online, AppStore, Android and ETG.

I learned a lot and will now consider the feedback we received to determine which changes will be implemented to make the game even better. I am sure everyone can see how passionate I am about my game but I am also a businessman. If there is a change that can help us reach our goal it will be made.

Lastly it was cool to finally meet some of you. For those that stopped by i would like to thank you for doing so. I have read so many archived posts from this site that i bet you are unaware just how much some of you have helped me on this incredibly exciting journey. As i told the wizard himself, this site is an invaluable tool for anyone crazy enough to try to pull it off. Thanks to all of you.

Hi kobalj,

Nice Report.

You don't just file a trial request in Arizona. First you apply for a vendor license, which includes financials and a background check.. It must also be accompanied by a $5,000 licensing/application fee.

If you are approved, you then have to find a casino to sponsor your game. You must get licensed with that Tribe and they must submit your game for use at their casino. They will need to supply the State with rules, dealing instructions, math, pictures of the layout being used, rack card and any other signs that might be used on the game. This process must be repeated for each casino you get to give you a try. The state does not accept game approval requests without it coming from a casino.

Also, keep in mind, many people are just being nice at the show. They don't want to criticize an inventor of a game too much and it's much easier to say they like your game and to send them some info then tell you no. I was a sponsor of the event for multiple years. The likelihood of getting placements when not finishing in the top spot, or at least top 3 is very low. Not impossible, but definitely a very small percentage chance.

ZCore13

Lol Here we go!

My plan was to start the process of contacting these jurisdictions Monday but it looks like Zscore is giving me a head start. Just the same, I will probably still contact the gaming authorities in each of the states to find out the exact process for each one. Stuff like money, license types and length of process won’t be considered a problem. Whatever needs to be paid will be paid and whatever obstacles appear will be overcome. Lastly, I would not be contacting these jurisdictions Monday unless i was instructed to by a Casino executive. There were actually 5 casinos total as two are in California.

I might be wrong about whether my game has what it takes but the fact is I have been fond of table games since i was a little kid. I believe i am in touch with what the type of players my game targets like and dislike. Therefore, I am going full speed ahead towards my goal and won’t consider stopping until l see my game in a few big time casinos in a few different locations and if it fails at that point I will waive the white flag but in my opinion that’s not ever going to happen.

As far as who won the actual contest goes i am not too worried about that. They are all great games! Gamblit is a monster and I absolutely love Down Under BJ but the winners consisted of two variants and a skill based. I don’t really consider those in my lane. Also if you attended the show you would have heard a great presentation by Johnny Walker of Muckleshoot Casino. In it he pointed out the flawed logic behind just following what other operators are doing. It was an incredible session. He also pointed out the importance of having a distributor. For the record the day a distributor presents me w an offer I can agree with I’m in. Just haven’t seen any yet.

Your comments about us possibly misinterpreting kindness for sincerity are pretty funny. I’m pretty comfortable with my interpretation of the discussions I had with people. Figuring out people’s intentions is a pretty big part of my other life so I’m not to worried about that.

As I always say time will tell. Maybe I’m lying about our pending application in Pa or that you will see my game in a stadium ETG? Maybe I’m a total idiot and I just misinterpreted everyone’s kindness? The great thing is all of this gets revealed relatively soon. Plus I don’t blame you for doubting me. Most new games bomb: The only way I will convince people otherwise is by pulling it off. Your comments actually help in that regard. They get me fired up to prove you wrong and that only helps things.

ZCore is definitely right. Your blinded optimism is quite silly. Not many people are going to tell you the game sucks, and if you think that every person that came up and said they liked it, actually liked it, then there's nothing anyone can do for you.

Instead of contacting these jurisdictions, you should be contacting Galaxy, SHFL, AGS, Score, and anyone else with license and distributions and set up meetings with them. Holding out for a perfect deal that doesn't exist will only be a downfall. These companies can save you money because you wouldn't be spending money on licenses, and they have a sales force that reaches much further than one person. Giving up a % of a game with one single placement and a deal with an ETG company that nobody knows of is probably a good trade off to not have to do apply for license and spend endless amounts of money, as well as have a sales force that covers all of North America.

Setting up meetings with them and seeing if they're people you could work with is harmless. There's no catch to a meeting with those companies. If you like what they say, jump on it. These companies would love to work with a game inventor who comes with a logo, rules, math report, layout, placement, and a person who is actually competent like yourself. Instead of a crazy person with an idea.

Your situation really reminds me of Shark Tank. You're fighting so hard to keep equity on a company that likely needs many things, but most importantly money and a shark behind it. Those short sighted entrepreneurs think so highly of the idea only because it is their own. Instead of taking a deal that they think is too high, they walk out and you never hear of their company again. Compared to the silly ideas that do take deals, you've got sponges now making $150,000,000 in gross sales, lobster roll food trucks taking off, exercise boards making $200,000,000 in gross sales.

In your case, what's better, 100% of one placement that doesn't pay you? Or 70% of a game with 100 placements and bringing in $50,000 a month?

I like the comparison of Galaxy, AGS, etc to the sharks in Shark Tank.

So, what's the must question that sharks ask? "What was your sales in the past 3 months, last year?" So, a good translation to gaming is, "how many tables have you placed?" You could ask for $50,000 for 80%, and get a counter for $1 for 85%. Only because they are sharks.

Get your own market/sales first.

Quote: UCivan

So, what's the must question that sharks ask? "What was your sales in the past 3 months, last year?" So, a good translation to gaming is, "how many tables have you placed?" You could ask for $50,000 for 80%, and get a counter for $1 for 85%. Only because they are sharks.

Get your own market/sales first.

Hi UCivan,
+1. Can't agree more.

This is what I would do and (has done in the pass):
Contacting these jurisdictions and contacting Galaxy, SHFL, AGS, and anyone else with license and distributions and set up meetings with them too.

P.S. I think kobalj must have done that already.

I have talked w some distributors but not all. I agree that if i was with one it would be much easier to reach the goal. The day I get an offer from a distributor that I can sign I will. Until then, I have no choice but to press on myself.

It’s not all about the money. I have plenty of stuff. So money matters but it’s not the driving force. I believe having a game in your pits for novice players and attracting new players is important to casinos. I feel my game does those things better than any other in existence. So the goal is to grab that seat at the table and when you are having as much fun as i am in pursuing it and you feel as confident as i do about it, the decision making process comes easy. It’s like being in the zone. (Assuming you’ve been in a zone before.)

I guess it could be blind optimism too. We will find out soon.

I have to amend my report as i had another casino reach out to me yesterday about a trial so the kindness apparently did not end upon conclusion of the conference. Consider that along with the vast number of casino execs that were kind at the show and one thing is clear, this industry is a lot more warm and fuzzy than i had thought. I had no clue it was so kind. Oh well, even though it stings a tad to learn that the interest shown in the game was actually unbeknownst to me lacking authenticity, the amount of kindness I experienced gives me a more positive outlook on life in general. Lol

Some big shot said one time, in public (publication), "Table game is an industry with no demands, but an abundance of supplies." His famous quote, "Being in this industry for over 20 years, I have yet got a call asking for new games."

This is why you have a chance to make millions. Best wishes to you.

Keep us posted with the progress in those jurisdictions.

Will you be supplying the casinos with the CSMs for the trials, or will they be renting them themselves? I’m curious to see how the commission’s for these tribals or states address the countbility issue...

How are things going at Magnolia Bluffs? Any idea when PA is going to approve you guys?

Quote: kobalj

I have to amend my report as i had another casino reach out to me yesterday about a trial so the kindness apparently did not end upon conclusion of the conference.

Good lucky with COU.

Quote: kobalj

I have to amend my report as i had another casino reach out to me yesterday about a trial so the kindness apparently did not end upon conclusion of the conference. Consider that along with the vast number of casino execs that were kind at the show and one thing is clear, this industry is a lot more warm and fuzzy than i had thought. I had no clue it was so kind. Oh well, even though it stings a tad to learn that the interest shown in the game was actually unbeknownst to me lacking authenticity, the amount of kindness I experienced gives me a more positive outlook on life in general. Lol

Well, I guess I have to admit now that you have figured it out, this isn't easy business and we were all just saying things to you that are not true.

Table games people love new games with no track history.

Getting people to talk to you guarantees installs.

Once you get an install, most likely for free or close to it, you're set. They can't uninstall it and other casinos must then follow suit. And the licensing fees in each State and Tribe don't count when figuring if you are making money.

Pick 'Em Blackjack, Aces Poker Face and Switch Hands, the top 3 games at the 2014 conference are all multi-millionaires.

Texas Switch, Half Back Blackjack and Super Sweep Poker, the top 3 in 2015 owners are all retired to tropical islands.

Gamblit Poker, Down Under Blackjack and 3 Card Draw Poker, the top 3 for 2016 are on fire with people crashing down their doors.

Congrats on conquering the industry.


ZCore13

The advantage player issue is unavoidable as it is for many games. Be that as it may, i had Joe Shipman analyze it in a report which covers straight-forward measures that can be taken or of course just use a CSM which completely makes it a non-issue. The state of Mississippi approved the game knowing all of the above and it appears Pa. will as well although that one is still pending. I have reason to believe we are close in pa. Regardless the card counting issue has yet to be an issue from the stand point of being approved but it did cost me a placement or two. Not much more i can do w that one.

Just wanted to report my first impression of the expo. I loved it and it is a great way for game developers meet allot of casinos. As far as the casinos that asked for us to contact their jurisdiction goes that is just the first step in the process of getting placed. No big deal. Long way to go before opening night. Whether you believe me or not is sort of fun to think about from time to time but it doesn’t matter. The fact that’s being questioned is kind of funny and maybe a little strange too.

It’s a great little game. Get used to it.

I think you are underestimating how badly the known vulnerability can cripple your chances. I'm not saying it should be a huge issue as you have recommended action to take care of it but I think it will be. Hope for you I'm wrong but I can't think of a single new game off the top of my head that gained a lot of placements when it came out with a well known vulnerability. The games that are everywhere out there with known vulnerabilities were already very popular by the time vulnerability was known, making the operators question how do we deal with it not should we put it on the floor. If there's a human involved in the implementation of anything, there's always a non zero chance things will be screwed up. There are tons of games approved in Nevada and Washington state (seems easier to get approved Washington) that I would like to see but you cannot find anywhere once they were known to be vulnerable and were not yet widespread.

Quote: Zcore13

Well, I guess I have to admit now that you have figured it out, this isn't easy business and we were all just saying things to you that are not true.

Table games people love new games with no track history.

Getting people to talk to you guarantees installs.

Once you get an install, most likely for free or close to it, you're set. They can't uninstall it and other casinos must then follow suit. And the licensing fees in each State and Tribe don't count when figuring if you are making money.

Pick 'Em Blackjack, Aces Poker Face and Switch Hands, the top 3 games at the 2014 conference are all multi-millionaires.

Texas Switch, Half Back Blackjack and Super Sweep Poker, the top 3 in 2015 owners are all retired to tropical islands.

Gamblit Poker, Down Under Blackjack and 3 Card Draw Poker, the top 3 for 2016 are on fire with people crashing down their doors.

Congrats on conquering the industry.


ZCore13

Well said.

I think we're overlooking how well Casino Over Under showed, it didn't even place in the top 3.....

It’s definitely not an easy feat to pull off and I’m not guaranteeing anything. However, between all of the casino execs i have spoken to leading up to and at the show i know that a vast majority of them see exactly what i see. Is it the best table game ever made? Nope. Is it a simple, fast-paced game that yields very little intimidation to the players playing it? Yes it is. Is there a place for such a game? Yes.

So forgive my brashness but there’s nothing someone can say in a forum that will change my opinion that is based on first-hand experiences I’ve had. The game has been accepted as good by many in the industry. If you can’t see why then you should probably take a closer look bc there are plenty of attributes that are easily identifiable.

If you are banking on my game’s demise just be patient. It still could happen. Just not any time soon as I’m only just starting to put things together. Every day more and more people download the game from all over the globe. Long way to go ladies and gents, a long way to go.

It’s vulnerable “only if” the operator is not using a CSM nor are they following joe shipmans counter measures right? “Only ifs” are very important and should not be ignored. Big difference from just plain old vulnerable.

Speaking of Shipman i wouldn’t sleep on One Card Poker. Great game, simple and quick. I also would not sleep on Easy Jack as i had the fortunate opportunity to stay at Aria and it was not only amazing but the dealers knew all about Easy Jack and were quite fond of it. The top three only logic is garbage for a number of reasons i won’t insult your intelligence by repeating.

Lastly remember it’s not 1990. I think a few of you are stuck in that era. There are more casinos. There are more table game opportunities considering online, ETG, Android, iPhone and international waters. There’s plenty of room for many games.

Joseph Shipman's Report

I think you need to reread this report. I don't think you fully understand what it says (nor did you when you posted it). A CSM is your only realistic option.

I just talked w Shipman about it last week. It means exactly what it says. Jeepers fellas! I’m used to people disagreeing w me as that’s all i do all day every day is argue but having my ability to read questioned along w my ability to decipher meaning from my one on one interactions i had w people is absolutely hilarious.

You worry about your game their buddy and i will worry about mine. I’m happy that moneysuit or classic suit or whatever you are calling it now got a second placement and a damn good one where the casino is marketing for it. Good for you brother.

Quote: kobalj

I just talked w Shipman about it last week. It means exactly what it says. Jeepers fellas! I’m used to people disagreeing w me as that’s all i do all day every day is argue but having my ability to read questioned along w my ability to decipher meaning from my one on one interactions i had w people is absolutely hilarious.

You worry about your game their buddy and i will worry about mine. I’m happy that moneysuit or classic suit or whatever you are calling it now got a second placement and a damn good one where the casino is marketing for it. Good for you brother.

"if players are allowed to jump in at any point without the shoe being shuffled, they may gain an arbitrarily large advantage". Funny that this is also expressed in the AP heat article.

And for the record, I didn't question a single one of your placements, I just said keep us posted and asked you a few questions.

Good luck Jason.

You questioned the meaning of shipmans report and tried to say it says CSM is the only option. That is not true. CSM makes it a non-issue or an operator can employ one of shipmans suggestions. Not very complicated. Nothing wrong w CSM’s. Some operators have lots of them and some don’t.

I hope your game turns things around in Washington real soon. It could happen. Keep at it.

Quote: kobalj

I hope your game turns things around in Washington real soon. It could happen

? Trying to make it sound like the game is not doing well Jason? Last I checked with the facility, the game is doing very well. Would you care to explain this last statement....

A direct report from the WA facility to an upcoming trial facility is what solidified that upcoming trial. So please, do explain.

Perhaps you guys might take it to PM? Honestly, with your actual names publicly known and being Table Games inventors I can promise that neither of you come out of it looking good if you go after each other publicly.

I wont be responding to the thread any more. Don't worry.

By all means do, I'm just saying it doesn't look good when challenging the integrity/performance of one another's games.

I want to say thanks to all who post here daily to share their experience and knowledge. This is my first post, but I have read a ton on here in the past year. Quite honestly this is an invaluable resource for anyone crazy enough to jump into the new table games industry. I am Jason's business partner Joe, and for those I met at the conference it was great to put a face with a name.

I will say the conference was without a doubt one of the best avenues to network and get crucial feedback on a new table game. Having a dedicated outlet to new table games was an awesome idea and I am glad I got to experience it first hand.

The competition was fierce. There were many great games there and I am grateful for the mere opportunity to be a part of it. The knowledge and experience gained from attending was well worth the price of admission.

To address the card counting vulnerability, we had Joe Shipman do an analysis and hopefully if he is reading this thread can comment on it further as he is more knowledgeable than I am about his analysis. What I took from the analysis is that the Casino Over Under much like blackjack shares a vulnerability for card counting. This is a non-issue with a CSM and also if the dealer does not exceed 3/4 of the shoe even with a player hopping in mid shoe.

Everyone's input is great. The reason we had Joe doe the analysis is because of feedback we received from here.

Thanks again

I wouldn’t worry about what i said as it was based on second hand information. Clearly first hand trumps second hand. I am not going to tell you who the people were that told me this but it was more than one. These people certainly have no reason to lie which normally matters to me if i #1. care or #2. if it wasn’t in the face of direct evidence from someone i don’t know well enough to assess their credibility.

So put that alltogether and what your left with is an apology from me. I am sorry Brett apparently the people that informed me the game was struggling were wrong for some reason. I’m glad your game is doing well.

I apologize if i upset anyone. I created this thread just in case there are people out there like I once was where i would monitor this forum which slowly but surely gave me an idea of what the landscape is like for trying to get a game in a casino. For those that don’t know, i came up w COU in 1995 but kept it under wraps for two decades bc it seemed to me like it would be impossible to make a run to get it in a casino. It was this site that gave me the courage to go for it.

So i certainly don’t want to bite the hand that fed me by upsetting the administrators of this site. I will say it is quite common to have to fend off the same negative comments over and over which is why i said “here we go” in response to the first negative response to my post. I’m not complaining. It’s just interesting and can get heated from time to time.

At this point the report has been placed and i will leave you all be for a while. I started my application in Washington and contacted the corresponding Tribal authority in Arizona for trisls in those states w casinos i met at the show. So those of you thinking about entering in the future you can get placements by placing or by impressing casinos w your game in your booth. You will here from me again down the road either about the new trials mentioned above or hopefully about pa. I wish you all the best.

Quote: kobalj

I apologize if i upset anyone. I created this thread just in case there are people out there like I once was where i would monitor this forum which slowly but surely gave me an idea of what the landscape is like for trying to get a game in a casino. For those that don’t know, i came up w COU in 1995 but kept it under wraps for two decades bc it seemed to me like it would be impossible to make a run to get it in a casino. It was this site that gave me the courage to go for it.

So i certainly don’t want to bite the hand that fed me by upsetting the administrators of this site. I will say it is quite common to have to fend off the same negative comments over and over which is why i said “here we go” in response to the first negative response to my post. I’m not complaining. It’s just interesting and can get heated from time to time.

At this point the report has been placed and i will leave you all be for a while. I started my application in Washington and contacted the corresponding Tribal authority in Arizona for trisls in those states w casinos i met at the show. So those of you thinking about entering in the future you can get placements by placing or by impressing casinos w your game in your booth. You will here from me again down the road either about the new trials mentioned above or hopefully about pa. I wish you all the best.

I think what's valuable to note here is that whether you get 10 placements or 0, this is the place for a game inventor to demo.