NGCB and gaming equipment

I posted last week about dominoes and lamented that there are no commercially-successful casino games played with standard double-six dominoes. I came up with a game that uses dominoes as a simpler alternative to Pai Gow (tiles, not poker), but I'd been wary of trying to trial it anywhere because there are no regulated casino dominoes on the market.

I just found out that non-electronic gaming equipment like cards, dice, and tiles don't need to be approved by the NGCB before a casino can offer a game with them. That's not the case in some other states, but in Nevada it's apparently up to the casino where to get their equipment.

What that means is that as long as you can find a source for your non-standard gaming equipment, you can use that equipment in new table games for Nevada. Dominoes, non-six-sided dice, non-standard card decks, Mah Jongg tiles, anything is fair game - no pun intended!

Quote: MathExtremist

....[A]s long as you can find a source for your non-standard gaming equipment, you can use that equipment in new table games for Nevada. Dominoes, non-six-sided dice, non-standard card decks, Mah Jongg tiles, anything is fair game - no pun intended!

This is great to know, because I've been working on an idea for a game involving two twelve-sided dice, but I was sure that such unusual dice could not be approved by a reputable gaming commission for games where serious money might be involved. Now there may just be "Skirmish"!

Quote: MathExtremist

I just found out that non-electronic gaming equipment like cards, dice, and tiles don't need to be approved by the NGCB before a casino can offer a game with them. That's not the case in some other states, but in Nevada it's apparently up to the casino where to get their equipment.

What that means is that as long as you can find a source for your non-standard gaming equipment, you can use that equipment in new table games for Nevada. Dominoes, non-six-sided dice, non-standard card decks, Mah Jongg tiles, anything is fair game - no pun intended!

It is odd, but I can understand that the rules are written in a very general manner to allow for innovation without having to inspect every little thing. New games still have to pass muster to be approved for field trial. I assume this includes inspection of the "equipment" to make sure it conforms with the one overarching NGC regulation, #5:

Quote: NGC Regulation 5.011, pt. 9

9. (a) Possessing or permitting to remain in or upon any licensed premises any cards, dice, mechanical device or any other cheating device whatever, the use of which is prohibited by statute or ordinance, or
(b) Conducting, carrying on, operating or dealing any cheating or thieving game or device on the premises, either knowingly or unknowingly, which may have in any manner been marked, tampered with or otherwise placed in a condition, or operated in a manner, which tends to deceive the public or which might make the game more liable to win or lose, or which tends to alter the normal random selection of criteria which determine the results of the game.

It is in the best interest of all parties (except the criminal element) to use equipment that produces random results. Dominoes, like Pai Gow tiles, or even playing cards would need to be designed and manufactured in such a way to resist marking, chipping, switching, tracking etc. Using a box of tiles from the corner Toys R Us will not suffice. At minimum, something would need to be done differently at the manufacturer to prevent switching of game tiles with others brought from home.

Deal the cards on the floor, in midair, or up the players' noses -- I think I stole that from Buzzpaff -- as long as there isn't any screwy electronic backend, you're good to go. We discussed it a little recently as part of a discussion of a new game built around Pai gow dice. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing other Chinese domino and dice games introduced (both traditional and new).

Quote: heather

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing other Chinese domino and dice games introduced (both traditional and new).

Are there other Chinese (or other Asian) gambling dice games popular in Macau/Singapore, besides Sic Bo? Craps doesn't seem to have a following there. I know that there is an "Odd or Even" dice game (Cho Han Bakuchi) that seems to be featured in alot of old Japanese samurai/yakuza movies, but I've never seen it actually fielded in the U.S. Seems alot like Sic Bo, but I dont' know the actual rules.

Edit: subsituted this image from a modern yakuza movie, as the other didn't show up on the website

Quote: NowTheSerpent

This is great to know, because I've been working on an idea for a game involving two twelve-sided dice, but I was sure that such unusual dice could not be approved by a reputable gaming commission for games where serious money might be involved. Now there may just be "Skirmish"!

Where would you purchase casino quality 12 sided dice?

Quote: Ayecarumba

Are there other Chinese (or other Asian) gambling dice games popular in Macau/Singapore, besides Sic Bo? Craps doesn't seem to have a following there. I know that there is an "Odd or Even" dice game (Cho Han Bakuchi) that seems to be featured in alot of old Japanese samurai/yakuza movies, but I've never seen it actually fielded in the U.S. Seems alot like Sic Bo, but I dont' know the actual rules.

Yee Hah Hi isn't as popular as Sic bo, but some Macau casinos offer it. I bought a commercial Sic bo set (electronic dice dome, dome cover, dice, paper layouts) not too long ago, and it actually included dice and layouts for both Sic bo and Yee Hah Hi. The Wizard has some info about halfway down this page.

As an aside, I'll note that my Chinese Sic bo layout somewhat amusingly offers even worse than normal odds, to the benefit of its owner. Also, Asian Sic bo layouts are reversed as regards low-to-high numbers.

Quote: pacomartin

Where would you purchase casino quality 12 sided dice?

I think the point is that, 'casino quality' is entirely up to the casino, as there is no minimum standard save that they produce fair results. In a pinch, you could throw two different colored pairs of casino dice to give you the 24 different outcomes.

Stacy,
Have you considered using playing card based dominoes?
They are just playing cards with the domino pips instead of stndard deck pips and paint.
They can be shuffled, they provide good game protection, and are probably easier to get approved.

Quote: heather

Quote: Ayecarumba

Are there other Chinese (or other Asian) gambling dice games popular in Macau/Singapore, besides Sic Bo? Craps doesn't seem to have a following there. I know that there is an "Odd or Even" dice game (Cho Han Bakuchi) that seems to be featured in alot of old Japanese samurai/yakuza movies, but I've never seen it actually fielded in the U.S. Seems alot like Sic Bo, but I dont' know the actual rules.

Yee Hah Hi isn't as popular as Sic bo, but some Macau casinos offer it. I bought a commercial Sic bo set (electronic dice dome, dome cover, dice, paper layouts) not too long ago, and it actually included dice and layouts for both Sic bo and Yee Hah Hi. The Wizard has some info about halfway down this page.

As an aside, I'll note that my Chinese Sic bo layout somewhat amusingly offers even worse than normal odds, to the benefit of its owner. Also, Asian Sic bo layouts are reversed as regards low-to-high numbers.

Thanks heather! Very interesting. Dice games with images instead of numbers are a tough sell in the U.S. as we do not have a common heritage of graphic identities like the Chinese zodiac. Maybe images of Presidents could come close, but probably cartoon characters would be more universal. (Snoopy, Woodstock.... Charlie Brown - Loser)

Here is my Yee Hah Hi game. Another name for it is Hoo Hey How, FWIW. Like I said, the dice and layout came with my Sic bo set. No payouts printed on this one, but everything normally pays out like single numbers in Sic bo (1:1, 2:1, 3:1 or 9:1 for one, two, and three dice, respectively), if I recall correctly.

Deal the cards on the floor, in midair, or up the players' noses -- I think I stole that from Buzzpaff -- as long as there isn't any screwy electronic backend, you're good to go. We discussed it a little recently as part of a discussion of a new game built around Pai gow dice. Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing other Chinese domino and dice games introduced (both traditional and new).

Nope not me. But I have been told my nose would hold a DECK OF CARDS. lol

Quote: Paigowdan

Stacy,
Have you considered using playing card based dominoes?
They are just playing cards with the domino pips instead of stndard deck pips and paint.
They can be shuffled, they provide good game protection, and are probably easier to get approved.

But that relegates it to "just another card game". The whole point of Twist'em is to bring the tactile feel of dominoes to the broader gaming market.

" I just found out that non-electronic gaming equipment like cards, dice, and tiles don't need to be approved by the NGCB before a casino can offer a game with them. "

Is there a penalty if I introduce my game with loaded dice ?? Just asking, no offense meant!

Quote: buzzpaff

" I just found out that non-electronic gaming equipment like cards, dice, and tiles don't need to be approved by the NGCB before a casino can offer a game with them. "

Is there a penalty if I introduce my game with loaded dice ?? Just asking, no offense meant!

Seems like a reasonable enough question. I do seem to recall having heard somewhere that it is illegal to possess loaded dice inside a casino, at least in NV. Not sure if that's right or not, or if it would apply to the House as well as patrons.

Assuming that the law exists, does anyone know how it's worded? For instance, if the law forbids surreptitiously introducing loaded dice into the casino, and you openly bill your game as The Loaded Dice Game, that might be okay (again, just guessing). Actually, if that's how it works, I think you might just have something marketable there. Most people assume that loaded dice hit whatever number they're intended to hit every single time, which, of course, they don't.