New Game Field Trials in Nevada

In Nevada, the recent new games on field trial have been almost exclusively by one of the 3 distributors: Galaxy, AGS of Bally (Scientific Gaming). There is no room for small or independent game developers. It's time for all number 4's to find a different career.

Current New Games:
start end
07-14-16 Chase the Flush 8-22-16
06-22-16 Two for the Show 08-06-16
06-08-16 River Hold'em 07-23-16

As an independent game developer, what I'm experiencing is, Nevada Casinos are not as flexible as California Indian Casinos when it comes to trying new games. The three large companies you mention, will take a look at your "new" game only after it's been installed successfully. Are you offering a game at this time? If so, what is it?

I have developer friends; I am just making a statement. I am sure some members like yourself have something to say about my observation.

Quote: RoyalBJ

start end
07-14-16 Chase the Flush 8-22-16
06-22-16 Two for the Show 08-06-16
06-08-16 River Hold'em 07-23-16

Where did you get that information? I'd be interested to know where to find these games.

Also, when is Three to Get Ready going to come out?

I think it's a very accurate observation. The 1st install no matter where, can be the only placement made or the beginning of the first one hundred. Finding flexible table managers is one thing. Convincing them to give you 5 or 10 minutes to demo is another issue. Cracking these two barriers will give you a 50/50 shot at Yes or No. Extracted one can estimate there will be 95 No answers and 5 maybes. Maybes include, maybe down the road, maybe after you get established, or maybe never. That's where I continue to move forward.

Quote: Wizard

...Also, when is Three to Get Ready going to come out?

Just before "Four to go." :-)

don't step on my blue suede felt....

Quote: Wizard

Where did you get that information? I'd be interested to know where to find these games.

Also, when is Three to Get Ready going to come out?

On the gaming web site. I always search for "new game field trials"

http://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=84

Quote: mikeabiomed

I think it's a very accurate observation. The 1st install no matter where, can be the only placement made or the beginning of the first one hundred. Finding flexible table managers is one thing. Convincing them to give you 5 or 10 minutes to demo is another issue. Cracking these two barriers will give you a 50/50 shot at Yes or No. Extracted one can estimate there will be 95 No answers and 5 maybes. Maybes include, maybe down the road, maybe after you get established, or maybe never. That's where I continue to move forward.

Do you have a game in CA? I am in CA and would like to play your game.

No, it's in the "maybe" stage. Where in CA are you located?

Quote: RoyalBJ

.....It's time for all number 4's to find a different career.

As they say "Keep you day job". In this case, while you pursue initial trials and, equally as difficult, critical mass of installations with your new game concept or do a deal with one of Sci Games/Galaxy/AGS/DEQ.

I can't imagine any independent table game developer quitting their current employment or honestly believing the independent table game business (starting with zero installations) is a way to make a living in short order....it is a long road with very little chance of ultimate financial success.

Quote: Wizard

Where did you get that information? I'd be interested to know where to find these games.

Also, when is Three to Get Ready going to come out?

It'll be out before "Four to Go."

Northern CA

Quote: mikeabiomed

Cracking these two barriers will give you a 50/50 shot at Yes or No. Extracted one can estimate there will be 95 No answers and 5 maybes..

Lol. No wonder there is a demand for gaming math boys.

Yes indeed! A very challenging business to start from scratch and "expect" anything in return$. Fortunately, I no longer rely on a day job. Been there, done that for 45 years. Now, it's a determination thing, a goal, a dream to someday say there was placement from a mere thought taken from a few drinks and thin air, shaken lightly and poured into a glass of reality one drop at a time.

Quote: RoyalBJ

In Nevada, the recent new games on field trial have been almost exclusively by one of the 3 distributors: Galaxy, AGS of Bally (Scientific Gaming). There is no room for small or independent game developers.

Unfortunately I feel the root of this issue originates in "our own hands" as independents... And no I don't mean us literally, but us as a group. Whether we like it or not, we as independents, IMO, are psychologically grouped together in the minds of an operator. At least in the minds of those who we do not have a preexisting relationship with.

After the Raving show two or three years ago I began getting very upset about something that many (basically all) of my acquaintances thought I was grossly blowing out of proportion. Some of these acquaintances are involved with the big three companies you had mentioned, while several other are indies like us. However, I unfortunately believe that my fears are becoming a reality in some respects, not necessarily because "there is no room for small or independent developers", but because, IMO, as a group our credibility has been harmed by some serious issues that have surfaced with new games brought to market in the recent past.

In the last few years alone, we have seen a number of games introduced by indies that have very serious vulnerabilities, whether it be counting issues, collusion issues or the like. Additionally, without circling back to the specifics, you may recall that we had seen a very serious issue (which I hope it was a mistake) involving a certain game's math at last year's show. Some believe that this issue/mistake is what lead this game to succeed at the show, I unfortunately also believe it was a significant factor. Also, we have even been seeing games with very significant KNOWN issues being marketed (sometimes disclosed and sometimes not). I think you may see where I am going with this... It's these issues that I feel is severely damaging the credibility of all indies, regardless of the presence, or lack there of, of such an issue present in the indie's game/s.

Look at it from an operator's perspective... Your job is dependent upon your decision making. Lets say you bring in a game with an undiscovered major issue (or even a known issue that was withheld) which causes harm to the facility (e.g. is exploited by AP's, colluders or others), what is going to be the end result? I feel that the recent increase in the presence of such issues is making the decision to deal with an independent a risky decision for an operator. It's a much safer decision in their eyes to deal with the big boys, as they have teams of people who are in place to find these issues before commercializing their products and bringing them to market. Of course, even those big boys make mistakes and may even have one or two games with these type of vulnerabilities. However, it is a much less likely to have one of these issues when dealing with them vs an indie. Also, not that it has anything to do with the purpose/point of this post, but some games simply don't belong on the floor and are simply no bueno, but that's another issue all together.

All of that said, plenty of indies do get trials around the country and will certainly continue to do so. However, the bigger "brand name" markets seem to be more partial to the established folks in the industry, IMO, for some of the reasons I have stated above. But then again this is simply my opinion and may not be the case whatsoever.

Quote: RoyalBJ

http://gaming.nv.gov/index.aspx?page=84

Thanks!

Quote: mrsuit31

Unfortunately I feel the root of this issue originates in "our own hands" as independents... And no I don't mean us literally, but us as a group. Whether we like it or not, we as independents, IMO, are psychologically grouped together in the minds of an operator. At least in the minds of those who we do not have a preexisting relationship with....

Yes: after coming up with a good game idea, few indies thoroughly cover such things as supplying a proper range of house edges, game protection in game design, thorough patent searches, dealing procedures, overblown artwork, etc. This stuff requires experience to "checklist off" very well to produce a complete and clean game kit. A bit of a reputation or assumptions about indies are par for the course.

Quote: mrsuit31

After the Raving show two or three years ago I began getting very upset about something that many (basically all) of my acquaintances thought I was grossly blowing out of proportion. Some of these acquaintances are involved with the big three companies you had mentioned, while several other are indies like us. However, I unfortunately believe that my fears are becoming a reality in some respects, not necessarily because "there is no room for small or independent developers", but because, IMO, as a group our credibility has been harmed by some serious issues that have surfaced with new games brought to market in the recent past.

More so now, but not completely the case: a lot of minor things can be fixed once in with a major distributor with production experience. They want good games based on great game ideas, and can fix up/clean up some minor errors and oversights expected in a newbie game designer's product. With major game issues the game isn't picked up, or will die or fade of its own accord if installed.

Quote: mrsuit31

All of that said, plenty of indies do get trials around the country and will certainly continue to do so. However, the bigger "brand name" markets seem to be more partial to the established folks in the industry, IMO, for some of the reasons I have stated above. But then again this is simply my opinion and may not be the case whatsoever.

There is something to this: there was a time when companies always bought IBM mainframes, saying "you can never get fired for buying from this big boy." Up until Apple came along that is (- and because they did it right). It is a political, sometimes seemingly treacherous industry, and the indy has to be a near Olympian on the details to pitch, sell, and install a game that will operate trouble-free for eons in a casino, on everything from dealing procedures and training, game protection, and the like.(Edit: Olympian Gaming, as an indy outfit, has an apt name because of their attention to all these details. Something to think about.)

Quote: RoyalBJ

Current New Games:
start end
07-14-16 Chase the Flush 8-22-16
06-22-16 Two for the Show 08-06-16

Saw both these games today. Will write up the details soon.

Two new games just posted today...both appear not to be from big distributors.

Color War at Palace Station developed by Young Gi Lee and 9 Card Fortune Flush at Bally's Las Vegas developed by Turbo Gaming LLC.

Independents do appear to get shots in Vegas afterall....now get out there an sell!!

You got more work on you plate Wiz....both went live today according to NGCB.

Quote: Paradigm

You got more work on you plate Wiz....

Indeed. Four field trial games at once. Five if we count Reno.

Hopefully any game called Color War can't be too complicated.

Quote: Paradigm

Independents do appear to get shots in Vegas afterall.

Just for the spirit of the argument. One of the two mentioned had the aid of a consultant who was previously a high level executive at one of the larger distributors not yet named in this thread. :-p

He posted on linkedin a few times about helping them get it placed... He has done so with several games/wagers in Nevada and around the country over the last few years.

Quote: Paradigm

You got more work on you plate Wiz....both went live today according to NGCB.

Are they live placements, or field trials?

I was under the impression that Mike doesn't evaluate games on field trial, unless they really look interesting.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Are they live placements, or field trials?

I am not sure I understand the question...a field trial is a live installation of the game with players betting real $$.

Quote: mrsuit31

Just for the spirit of the argument. One of the two mentioned had the aid of a consultant who was previously a high level executive at one of the larger distributors not yet named in this thread. :-p

He posted on linkedin a few times about helping them get it placed... He has done so with several games/wagers in Nevada and around the country over the last few years.

Certainly finding & making connections that can help you get a game placed is a nice thing to put in the mix.

I would add that eTable Games placed two different games in Las Vegas this year (Four Card Split & Tie Max for Baccarat). I attribute his success as a result of persistence effort over many trips to Vegas.

Quote: Paradigm

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Are they live placements, or field trials?

I am not sure I understand the question...a field trial is a live installation of the game with players betting real $$.

Oh. Maybe NJ & CT are different. There, I've seen signs explaining that a specific game is a field trial.

As such, the game rules and/or payouts could change, or the game outright fail, making Mike's efforts of questionable value.

And maybe I should have said 'permanent placement'. While I know no installation is permanent, they are more permanent than a field trial.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Are they live placements, or field trials?

I was under the impression that Mike doesn't evaluate games on field trial, unless they really look interesting.

Field trials. Yes, that is my general policy. However, when I see a game with my own eyes it always perks my interest. Plus one usually has to have good connections to get a game into Vegas, which means the same game is probably found at other casinos too.

Quote: Paradigm

I am not sure I understand the question...a field trial is a live installation of the game with players betting real $$.

I think he meant fully-approved rather than provisionally. That said, how many new games that get to field trial don't actually get approved? Is there an easy way to find that out via state records?

Quote: MathExtremist

I think he meant fully-approved rather than provisionally. That said, how many new games that get to field trial don't actually get approved? Is there an easy way to find that out via state records?

Failures are handled discreetly, like discussing abortions, which is generally not discussed (pardon the cold analogy).
Basically it's a Mulligan; I fine game I know from a field trial was grossly mishandled by the small casino running (it literally bordered sabotage), and will be allowed to be re-field trailed without any sort of penalty or mark. Extenuating circumstances are graciously considered.

Many fail due to math or lack of action; if a game gets some decent action and performs "acceptably" within a wide range, it is normally approved, with an assumption it has a chance; the market ultimately decides.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

As such, the game rules and/or payouts could change, or the game outright fail, making Mike's efforts of questionable value.

And maybe I should have said 'permanent placement'. While I know no installation is permanent, they are more permanent than a field trial.

Ok, I get it what you meant.

Part of the benefit to WoO is when you come across a game that is new in a casino (& likely on trial), you can go to WoO and Mike will have some insight for you on how to play, HE, etc. Sort of the pioneer on figuring out new games when they become available, even if that is only in one casino.

After all, weren't we just lamenting farther up the thread how hard it is to get a field trial in Vegas?

Don't get me wrong. I LOVE all the work Mike does, and would never suggest that he's doing too much. I was merely voicing a belief I had about what games he does and doesn't evaluate.

For the record, I recently looked at all of his evaluations in an effort to see if a new game I have in the back of my head might have already been tried. I also looked at the games on Nevada's approved list.

Sure, I know I gotta look at patents, but my new idea is so basic, it is best described with very generic terms, making it impossible for me to come up with good search terms. Makes me wonder how patent lawyers do it...

Quote: Paradigm

Certainly finding & making connections that can help you get a game placed is a nice thing to put in the mix.

I would add that eTable Games placed two different games in Las Vegas this year (Four Card Split & Tie Max for Baccarat). I attribute his success as a result of persistence effort over many trips to Vegas.

Congratulations to eTable Games (Wayne). Vegas trips pay off. I think Tie Max Baccarat is an approved side bet, not a main game, which has been getting tremendous plays at both Gold Coast and The Orleans every day.

Don't know what the status of 4 Card Split at Suncoast is now..

Congrat Wayne.

There is a field trial game at the Monte Carlo called Mega Win. Has anyone seen it?

Gaming field trial approval letter.

It's an AGS distributed product, where Blackjacks pay 3:1; the rack card on this:

All winning player 21s are paid 3 to 2, even after splits or doubles*
Player Blackjacks are paid 3 to 1 instantly, unless the dealer also has a blackjack, in which case the hand pushes.
If the dealer has an Ace as an up card and a player has a Blackjack they may take even money
When the dealer busts with 4 cards or more, all remaining hands push
All normal splits allowed
*When dealer has 21 or busts with four or more cards, players push on 21.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's an AGS distributed product, where Blackjacks pay 3:1; the rack card on this:

All winning player 21s are paid 3 to 2, even after splits or doubles*
Player Blackjacks are paid 3 to 1 instantly, unless the dealer also has a blackjack, in which case the hand pushes.
If the dealer has an Ace as an up card and a player has a Blackjack they may take even money
When the dealer busts with 4 cards or more, all remaining hands push
All normal splits allowed
*When dealer has 21 or busts with four or more cards, players push on 21.

With any due respect, are all these games designed to find new ways to f a few tourists for a small portion of a dwindling pool. Seems like all these game designers are throwing shit against the wall with hopes of getting 1/10 of 1% of the market for a few weeks before the game goes to the pile of good intentions.

Trust me I understand the deal. Everyone does it from Oreos with 32 new flavors a year to Pepsi with 12 Mt Dew variants. Beer companies do it as well. But is there an opportunity for someone with new and creative thinking to create a new game that has long term viability or is that a pipe dream?

And no I don't have the answer.

Quote: Paigowdan

It's an AGS distributed product, where Blackjacks pay 3:1; the rack card on this:

All winning player 21s are paid 3 to 2, even after splits or doubles*
Player Blackjacks are paid 3 to 1 instantly, unless the dealer also has a blackjack, in which case the hand pushes.
If the dealer has an Ace as an up card and a player has a Blackjack they may take even money
When the dealer busts with 4 cards or more, all remaining hands push
All normal splits allowed
*When dealer has 21 or busts with four or more cards, players push on 21.

Hmmm. I'm not sure this is a significant enough move away from conventional blackjack to make it stand out in the competitive world of blackjack derivatives. Then again, I might have said that about Super Fun 21 when it came out and that game has had hundreds of placements.

I may check it out on Wednesday. Anyone want to join me?

Sure, will do.
Some questions and aspects of Mega to look at.

Quote: Boz

With any due respect, are all these games designed to find new ways to f a few tourists for a small portion of a dwindling pool. Seems like all these game designers are throwing shit against the wall with hopes of getting 1/10 of 1% of the market for a few weeks before the game goes to the pile of good intentions.

Trust me I understand the deal. Everyone does it from Oreos with 32 new flavors a year to Pepsi with 12 Mt Dew variants. Beer companies do it as well. But is there an opportunity for someone with new and creative thinking to create a new game that has long term viability or is that a pipe dream?

And no I don't have the answer.

Generally agree: a lot of designers add a minor or trivial twist and feel that the new variation is revolutionary when barely evolutionary if not unnecessary. Sometimes the smallest change yields a great improvement, but more typically it adds a little, with the game designer himself often being the poorest judge of his own daughter's beauty. Not every new gimmick is a bona fide Humdinger; that's different.

The market tells us the score. Wait and see.

It seems like AGS has been the dominant ones in regard to number of Nevada trials lately. They seem to be on the list a majority of the time...

This is good to see. May AGS have success in getting stuff out.

Got to run things up the flagpole.

Quote: Boz

With any due respect, are all these games designed to find new ways to f a few tourists for a small portion of a dwindling pool. Seems like all these game designers are throwing shit against the wall with hopes of getting 1/10 of 1% of the market for a few weeks before the game goes to the pile of good intentions.

Trust me I understand the deal. Everyone does it from Oreos with 32 new flavors a year to Pepsi with 12 Mt Dew variants. Beer companies do it as well. But is there an opportunity for someone with new and creative thinking to create a new game that has long term viability or is that a pipe dream?

And no I don't have the answer.

What are your thoughts on my games?

Quote: Paigowdan

It's an AGS distributed product, where Blackjacks pay 3:1; the rack card on this:

All winning player 21s are paid 3 to 2, even after splits or doubles*
Player Blackjacks are paid 3 to 1 instantly, unless the dealer also has a blackjack, in which case the hand pushes.
If the dealer has an Ace as an up card and a player has a Blackjack they may take even money
When the dealer busts with 4 cards or more, all remaining hands push
All normal splits allowed
*When dealer has 21 or busts with four or more cards, players push on 21.

Edit: Never mind I read it wrong.