New game 3 CARD LOW BALL at Railroad Pass
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| | 6 votes (33.33%) | ||
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18 members have voted
May 2nd, 2016 at 9:40:46 AM
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Saw a brand new game 3 Card Low Ball with a seldom-seen concept in play, the low ball hand.
I didn’t know how much fun it would be until I played it, and it is a fun game.
Player makes an Ante and a Bonus bet, player and dealer get three cards. Player may discard zero to two cards and re-draw as many cards, in an effort to get the best low ball hand, that being A-2-4 offsuit.
Strategy is to basically break up pairs, flushes, and straights, and ditch 9’s or higher, to get the lowest possible low hand.
Dealer plays by a house way, which is also to break up pairs, flushes, straights, etc., and to discard 10’s.
Dealer always qualifies, and player wins even money on the Ante, and wins the Bonus on a pay table with an 11-point hand or less of high cards only. Occasionally the dealer will draw and pair up or get a flush to pay the table.
I will admit the Railroad Pass is an out of the way place near I-95 just south of Wagonwheel, but it’s a nice joint: a standard mix of slots and tables (BJ, Roulette, craps and the occasional new comer) with $2 minimum limits, with a good steak house, buffet, and a real coffee shop.
I’m sure Mike is just itchin’ to review this game (“Oh, look….a new game….will such delights never cease...”) – but seriously, it IS a nice concept that plays really well. A sweet game.
I didn’t know how much fun it would be until I played it, and it is a fun game.
Player makes an Ante and a Bonus bet, player and dealer get three cards. Player may discard zero to two cards and re-draw as many cards, in an effort to get the best low ball hand, that being A-2-4 offsuit.
Strategy is to basically break up pairs, flushes, and straights, and ditch 9’s or higher, to get the lowest possible low hand.
Dealer plays by a house way, which is also to break up pairs, flushes, straights, etc., and to discard 10’s.
Dealer always qualifies, and player wins even money on the Ante, and wins the Bonus on a pay table with an 11-point hand or less of high cards only. Occasionally the dealer will draw and pair up or get a flush to pay the table.
I will admit the Railroad Pass is an out of the way place near I-95 just south of Wagonwheel, but it’s a nice joint: a standard mix of slots and tables (BJ, Roulette, craps and the occasional new comer) with $2 minimum limits, with a good steak house, buffet, and a real coffee shop.
I’m sure Mike is just itchin’ to review this game (“Oh, look….a new game….will such delights never cease...”) – but seriously, it IS a nice concept that plays really well. A sweet game.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 10:08:48 AM
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I only read the first couple lines, just 2F.
Hopefully many others are looking for new games, inventing new games, trying new games.
You and me, we live here, we think different, I still like you. "how does it smoke"?
DWW
Hopefully many others are looking for new games, inventing new games, trying new games.
You and me, we live here, we think different, I still like you. "how does it smoke"?
DWW
Youuuuuu MIGHT be a 'rascal' if.......(nevermind ;-)...2F
May 2nd, 2016 at 10:56:30 AM
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That seems really fun. How did other players seem to enjoy it? Anything surprising?
Am I correct that the Ante bet player-versus-dealer comparison is based on poker hand logic, even though the Bonus is based on total points? In other words, if the player has 864 and the dealer has 932, does the player still win the Ante?
I hope I get the chance to play it someday.
Am I correct that the Ante bet player-versus-dealer comparison is based on poker hand logic, even though the Bonus is based on total points? In other words, if the player has 864 and the dealer has 932, does the player still win the Ante?
I hope I get the chance to play it someday.
May 2nd, 2016 at 11:52:49 AM
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The Railroad Pass is a strange casino to do a field trial. Then again, it was either them or the Hacienda that had Double Exposure for years. I think the Hacienda.
I'll try to make it out there to check it out. The analysis would consist of analyzing 76,277,828,779,152,000 combinations, which is prohibitive in terms of reasonable calculation time. If anybody knows the owners, please tell them that I would sure appreciate the math report.
I'll try to make it out there to check it out. The analysis would consist of analyzing 76,277,828,779,152,000 combinations, which is prohibitive in terms of reasonable calculation time. If anybody knows the owners, please tell them that I would sure appreciate the math report.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
May 2nd, 2016 at 12:09:20 PM
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Quote: MrGoldenSunThat seems really fun. How did other players seem to enjoy it? Anything surprising?
A couple of surprising things:
1. A floorman mentioned that the Table hold because the table was hot, in spite of correct House edges (it had a GLI/BMM report done), all a common fluke occurrence of field trails for some metaphysical reason. It seems when a new game is introduced, the Gods of gambling activate mischief to play around with it; this is only normal variance, but it seems uncanny that new games either dump or over-hold at first, then settle down - with the same math parameters. It's like one of the unexplainable mysteries of the Catholic Church or something, we all notice this and pray that our new baby will do well.
2. Players do enjoy it, particularly when it's acting loose.
3. But it gets little action, only because it is at a far away casino in the middle of nowhere, as far as Las Vegas life is concerned. It's a bit like living in New York City, and instead of seeing a hit Broadway show or going to the Met museum, you instead decide to travel to see the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens, also a worthwhile trip but done less often. Don't get me wrong, it's a nice place, but you cannot get any further away from 5th Avenue (or in this case the Las Vegas Strip) than this. I honestly think if the game were field trialed at Green Valley Ranch or at the Monte Carlo, it would do gangbusters.
The Railroad Pass casino is on the way to Laughlin, and to the Hoover Dam. If you're making a day trip there, check it out on the way!
4. Game inventors are thankful for any field trial where the casino supports the new game in good faith, and Gaming knows the score on this. Once the game is approved in Nevada, it can be distributed anywhere in this great state.
Quote: MrGoldenSunAm I correct that the Ante bet player-versus-dealer comparison is based on poker hand logic, even though the Bonus is based on total points? In other words, if the player has 864 and the dealer has 932, does the player still win the Ante?
correct. Hands are considered 9-high, Jack-high, a pair, etc., by normal poker rules in main game play, but the bonus payouts are broken out by points in hand, which is still easy. Alternatively, 4-high (4-2-Ace), 5-high (5-3-2 or 5-4-2), 6-high, etc. could have been used also. Either way, the game plays nicely.
Quote: MrGoldenSunI hope I get the chance to play it someday.
Me, too. I hope it gets traction.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on May 2, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 12:10:09 PM
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Quote: WizardThe Railroad Pass is a strange casino to do a field trial. Then again, it was either them or the Hacienda that had Double Exposure for years. I think the Hacienda.
I'll try to make it out there to check it out. The analysis would consist of analyzing 76,277,828,779,152,000 combinations, which is prohibitive in terms of reasonable calculation time. If anybody knows the owners, please tell them that I would sure appreciate the math report.
Roger wilco. It's a lady named Sandy in Texas, she had Charlie Ray (CRM) do the math.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 12:30:56 PM
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As far as low hold for a new game, I would think that is to be expected. I mean, if a player buys in for $100 at Bj or any game familiar to him, he bought in to play. With a new game he might buy in to try it. And after a few hands, decide it's not that much fun.
May 2nd, 2016 at 12:34:49 PM
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True, a player may "small sample" a new game more so than his main staple game .
I also think that hot or cold streak occurrences are also highly noted during field trials also, as they are under the microscope.
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I also think that hot or cold streak occurrences are also highly noted during field trials also, as they are under the microscope.
.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 12:38:23 PM
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The HE of 3.36% seems to be in the ballpark for carnival games.
May 2nd, 2016 at 1:42:28 PM
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So you have to have 11 point hand or less for the bonus, and other than that it's just your total vs dealer total? Do you "have" to play the bonus? If the average card in a deck is 8, the average point total should be 24... to have less than 11 seems fairly rare. Yeah, that bonus pay table looks not very player friendly.
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
May 2nd, 2016 at 1:54:36 PM
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Quote: RomesSo you have to have 11 point hand or less for the bonus, and other than that it's just your total vs dealer total? Do you "have" to play the bonus? If the average card in a deck is 8, the average point total should be 24... to have less than 11 seems fairly rare. Yeah, that bonus pay table looks not very player friendly.
Average points are less than 24, more like 20 in three cards as you can ditch and re-draw for low cards. However, you're looking for the lowest poker hand to win on the Ante.
1. Player makes an Ante and Bonus bet, where Ante=Bonus. It's like a blind bet.
2. Player and dealer can discard 0 to 2 cards to replace. Dealer must play by a house way, breaking up poker elements and discarding 10's.
3. Player and dealer face off to win with the lowest poker-ranked hand: Jack-high, 9-high, etc. ANTE gets paid even money on a player win.
4. Bonus bet wins when the player wins with a total point count of 11 or less. It is fairly rare, it's hands like 5-3-2, 6-4-A, 5-4-A, (offsuit, no pairs) etc. You can have a 8-high of 11 points (8-2-A) and win on the bonus, and a 7-high of 17 points (7-6-4) and not win on the bonus. The hand behaves like a blackjack point hand for the bonus win where an ace is a 1.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 2:27:21 PM
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Ah.. okay. So it's like the Blind bet in UTH... forced, but doesn't always pay and where the HE is at =P.
I might still try this game, because in any carny games I always get the worst hands. I LOVE EZ Pai Gow Poker where they let you bet on the Pai Gow. I've won money literally every time I've played that game betting that I'll Pai Gow. lol
I might still try this game, because in any carny games I always get the worst hands. I LOVE EZ Pai Gow Poker where they let you bet on the Pai Gow. I've won money literally every time I've played that game betting that I'll Pai Gow. lol
Playing it correctly means you've already won.
May 2nd, 2016 at 2:28:37 PM
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PGD, any idea of the hit rate on Bonus Bet broken down between pushes and wins? For example, Player may win 49% of hands, but only have 11 or less points on 10% of hands. Under that set of facts you would have a 10% win hit rate & a 39% push "hit" rate on Bonus Bet. Any idea what are the actual numbers are?
May 2nd, 2016 at 2:52:39 PM
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Quote: ParadigmPGD, any idea of the hit rate on Bonus Bet broken down between pushes and wins? For example, Player may win 49% of hands, but only have 11 or less points on 10% of hands. Under that set of facts you would have a 10% win hit rate & a 39% push "hit" rate on Bonus Bet. Any idea what are the actual numbers are?
I don't have the math report, but just asked Sandy for it. I know the HE on the Ante + Bonus (two bets as EoR) is 1.9%, pretty low for a carnival game.
The player will win more than 50% of the hands not restricted by a house way. I assume the Bonus bet is a typical 10% hit frequency as a Blind-type bet with an accelerated pay table. the dealer is limited by a house way, ditching all 10's, J's, Q's and K's and pairs+ blindly. Mike will review the math and post it.
A strong but simple strategy would be interesting; I assume the player would strive for an 8-high hand, and ditch 9's+, (or a 9-high and ditch all 10's+), in addition to breaking up all poker elements.. If you had J-10-9, you'd ditch the j and 10; if you had 5-4-3, you might ditch the 5 or even the 4, as ditching the five would still give you a losing straight if you got a 2 or a 5 (7 outs) versus three 4's remaining.
Collusion: I wonder if signaling face cards busy among the players would greatly affect draws; keep a 10-high hand if no K's, Q's or J's busy, but ditch if many paint cards busy.
Last edited by: Paigowdan on May 2, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 3:09:14 PM
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3.36% HE is what the website says ? ?
May 2nd, 2016 at 3:12:55 PM
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No, I spoke with the developers who had a BMM math report done, indicating a 1.9% EoR HE. Where did you get that figure?
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 3:20:51 PM
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There isn't a raise or fold feature to the game, so I wonder why there is a difference in HE vs. EoR...you always have only the two bets in play (Ante & Bonus), right?
May 2nd, 2016 at 3:23:48 PM
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Quote: RomesI might still try this game, because in any carny games I always get the worst hands. I LOVE EZ Pai Gow Poker where they let you bet on the Pai Gow. I've won money literally every time I've played that game betting that I'll Pai Gow. lol
I get ya here. Pai Gow Protection/Insurance is a must for PGP. This is why EZ Pai Gow is the very best game in the whole wide world! ;)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 3:26:16 PM
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Quote: ParadigmThere isn't a raise or fold feature to the game, so I wonder why there is a difference in HE vs. EoR...you always have only the two bets in play (Ante & Bonus), right?
EoR is based on units in play and at risk (two here), and pure house edge is based on one unit. Even Blackjack - considered a one-unit game - has a different EoR as you can split and double down, making the actual units in action more like 1.1 units.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 3:52:54 PM
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I agree PGD, but this truly is a one unit game...there is no adding wagers to split, double, play or raise. Rather you always have only the original two mandatory bets in play.
I would expect that even if you considered Three Card Low Ball to be a "two unit" game (e.g. the Ante & Bonus being the "two" units always in play), the EoR would be 1/2 the stated HE or 1.68% (e.g. 3.68% HE/2.0 Units = 1.68% EoR). But you mentioned 1.9% EoR, so I am not sure what to make of that.
I would expect that even if you considered Three Card Low Ball to be a "two unit" game (e.g. the Ante & Bonus being the "two" units always in play), the EoR would be 1/2 the stated HE or 1.68% (e.g. 3.68% HE/2.0 Units = 1.68% EoR). But you mentioned 1.9% EoR, so I am not sure what to make of that.
May 2nd, 2016 at 4:05:06 PM
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Quote: ParadigmI agree PGD, but this truly is a one unit game...there is no adding wagers to split, double, play or raise. Rather you always have only the original two mandatory bets in play.
I would expect that even if you considered Three Card Low Ball to be a "two unit" game (e.g. the Ante & Bonus being the "two" units always in play), the EoR would be 1/2 the stated HE or 1.68% (e.g. 3.68% HE/2.0 Units = 1.68% EoR). But you mentioned 1.9% EoR, so I am not sure what to make of that.
MT, it's easy: the house advantage on the two bets is 1.9%. So, on $10 action ($5 on Ante and $5 on Bonus), the house will make 19 cents per $10 player, per round of play, etc....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 4:28:46 PM
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Quote: ernestmiddle3.36% HE is what the website says ? ?
Well, Ernie!.....
It seems you have read the lab report. It is 1.68% EoR, or 3.36% per Ante unit bet as per BMM. "Charlie Ray" was a tad higher. WTH.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 6:04:59 PM
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I don't like that you can't make a raise bet.You put up your two bets then your done except for switching cards.I think it would have been interesting if they let you bet an extra unit or two before exchanging your cards.
Happy days are here again
May 2nd, 2016 at 6:21:09 PM
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The catch of this game is that you can discard and then draw to get a better hand as you see fit., A raise bet would have too much of a house edge, and would require herculean house edge mechanisms [cough! - herculean?].
The proof is in how the game plays for the player. Some like it, some prefer other games.
Also, a correction after receiving the BMM report:
Update/Correction:
In Sandy’s 3CLB site, the game is described in terms of the lowest poker ranked hand:
“The dealer then compares his hand with each player’s hand, and resolves the two (2) wagers as follows:
* If the dealer’s hand is lower ranking than the player’s, the dealer wins, and the player’s Ante and Bonus wagers are collected.”
But the BMM report states that, for the main game:
”* All Aces are counted as one (1) point, the lowest card
* All cards 2 – 9 are counted as their pip value, (face value)
* All 10 – King cards (face cards) are counted as 10 points.”
And then process the game as point based when high cards are considered, below a pair. A 17 point high card hand beats an 18 point high card hand in blackjack-style points, not poker rank. But a pair of 7's in a hand beats a flush hand when facing off.
It appears, in its implementation, that for all high-card hands points are used, and for all hands with a pair or better, it’s then the lower poker rank that wins.
So, Sandy can update her website to say at that link:
* If the dealer’s hand is lower ranking than the player’s, (which are in hand Points when below a pair), the dealer wins, and the player’s Ante and Bonus wagers are collected.”
The proof is in how the game plays for the player. Some like it, some prefer other games.
Also, a correction after receiving the BMM report:
Update/Correction:
In Sandy’s 3CLB site, the game is described in terms of the lowest poker ranked hand:
“The dealer then compares his hand with each player’s hand, and resolves the two (2) wagers as follows:
* If the dealer’s hand is lower ranking than the player’s, the dealer wins, and the player’s Ante and Bonus wagers are collected.”
But the BMM report states that, for the main game:
”* All Aces are counted as one (1) point, the lowest card
* All cards 2 – 9 are counted as their pip value, (face value)
* All 10 – King cards (face cards) are counted as 10 points.”
And then process the game as point based when high cards are considered, below a pair. A 17 point high card hand beats an 18 point high card hand in blackjack-style points, not poker rank. But a pair of 7's in a hand beats a flush hand when facing off.
It appears, in its implementation, that for all high-card hands points are used, and for all hands with a pair or better, it’s then the lower poker rank that wins.
So, Sandy can update her website to say at that link:
* If the dealer’s hand is lower ranking than the player’s, (which are in hand Points when below a pair), the dealer wins, and the player’s Ante and Bonus wagers are collected.”
Last edited by: Paigowdan on May 2, 2016
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 6:46:14 PM
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Quote: ernestmiddleAs far as low hold for a new game, I would think that is to be expected. I mean, if a player buys in for $100 at Bj or any game familiar to him, he bought in to play. With a new game he might buy in to try it. And after a few hands, decide it's not that much fun.
On the flip side of this... A decent number of players come over with some chips from another table just to give it a shot.
.
May 2nd, 2016 at 7:19:05 PM
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Interesting game, I'd try it. I think they should have done true poker ranks instead of the point system though. :(
People aren't going to be thrilled when the dealer's K2A beats a player's 743.
And if a player ends with a pair or higher, they automatically lose? The webpage is unclear to me.
People aren't going to be thrilled when the dealer's K2A beats a player's 743.
And if a player ends with a pair or higher, they automatically lose? The webpage is unclear to me.
May 2nd, 2016 at 7:25:48 PM
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Quote: tringlomaneInteresting game, I'd try it. I think they should have done true poker ranks instead of the point system though. :(
People aren't going to be thrilled when the dealer's K2A beats a player's 743.
And if a player ends with a pair or higher, they automatically lose? The webpage is unclear to me.
Would there be a player edge if the dealer were treating its as poker ranking instead of point ranking
At my age, a "Life In Prison" sentence is not much of a deterrent.
May 2nd, 2016 at 7:39:13 PM
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Quote: tringlomaneInteresting game, I'd try it. I think they should have done true poker ranks instead of the point system though. :(
People aren't going to be thrilled when the dealer's K2A beats a player's 743.
And if a player ends with a pair or higher, they automatically lose?
No, just the higher hand loses. I've discarded and drawn to a pair thinking I'd lose, but the dealer with K87 dumps the King and draws a 9 - for the straight. I low balled him with a pair!
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 2nd, 2016 at 7:42:41 PM
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Quote: DRichWould there be a player edge if the dealer were treating its as poker ranking instead of point ranking
I don't think so; the dealer and player face-off using the same ranking method either way. It might, though, if it required the house to distinguish face cards..
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 3rd, 2016 at 6:27:52 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanIt's a bit like living in New York City, and instead of seeing a hit Broadway show or going to the Met museum, you instead decide to travel to see the Brooklyn Botanical Gardens
I get your point, but the analogy is really funny to me specifically, because I used to live in New York and I have better memories of my trips to the BBG than I do of my trips to the Met. So maybe I should go to somewhere like Reno instead of Las Vegas! :)
Sounds like if anyone plays this game, you should check whether the metric is "total points" or "poker hand ranking" to avoid unpleasant surprises.
May 3rd, 2016 at 7:35:29 AM
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At first, it was a bit confusing since it appeared to be a cross between KC (2-7) lowball where pat hands counted and A is high and CA (A-5) lowball where A is low and pat hands don't hurt you. Now it appears to have a gin rummy type of points scoring? I agree that this will frustrate anyone who has played lowball or hi-lo poker.Quote: tringlomaneInteresting game, I'd try it. I think they should have done true poker ranks instead of the point system though. :(
People aren't going to be thrilled when the dealer's K2A beats a player's 743.
However, I do like the game concept, and I would give it a try if I had the chance.
PGD, is there a place online where one could play a demo of the game? I didn't see it on the website linked in the OP.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
May 3rd, 2016 at 8:10:33 AM
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1. Not online, just in the casino. Sandy said that an app would have to be made.
2. In designing a game, there's always going to be alternate ways and trade-offs when implementing a particular game mechanism. In this case: is it Ace-low versus Ace-high? Here, Ace is low because you'd want the Ace to be a positive card for the player, so A-2-4 is the lowest hand, not 5-3-2. For high card face-offs, is it lower hand points or lower top card? Here, a high-card hand versus a high card hand face-off wins with lower pip points. Sandy envisioned her game where a certain way is best, or best compromise, as all game designers do. As a result, there's always going to be some players who are put off, and others who are turned on, by the way some game mechanism is implemented until the players settle into a game. It's unavoidable, as you cannot please all of the people all of the time.
2. In designing a game, there's always going to be alternate ways and trade-offs when implementing a particular game mechanism. In this case: is it Ace-low versus Ace-high? Here, Ace is low because you'd want the Ace to be a positive card for the player, so A-2-4 is the lowest hand, not 5-3-2. For high card face-offs, is it lower hand points or lower top card? Here, a high-card hand versus a high card hand face-off wins with lower pip points. Sandy envisioned her game where a certain way is best, or best compromise, as all game designers do. As a result, there's always going to be some players who are put off, and others who are turned on, by the way some game mechanism is implemented until the players settle into a game. It's unavoidable, as you cannot please all of the people all of the time.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 3rd, 2016 at 8:24:59 AM
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I agree the mix is kind of confusing, but I would expect strategy to be relatively simple. There's no betting and it's a three-card hand rather than five. I do think it needs to be clarified for players. Paigowdan said it was poker-based but the literature suggests otherwise.
Personally, I'm not sure what it "should" be. Poker hand ranking makes sense to me, but I agree it's an odd mix of KC and California, and lowball hand ranking can be a bit tricky to explain to non-poker players. I think points for both ranking and bonus would actually be the easiest to describe, and it would make the player's goal more consistent.
Personally, I'm not sure what it "should" be. Poker hand ranking makes sense to me, but I agree it's an odd mix of KC and California, and lowball hand ranking can be a bit tricky to explain to non-poker players. I think points for both ranking and bonus would actually be the easiest to describe, and it would make the player's goal more consistent.
May 3rd, 2016 at 8:28:45 AM
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This game was shown at 2015, table game conference, right?? I thought so. In the show, a patent attorney told there was a patent on the idea already. Not sure if he was right.
May 3rd, 2016 at 8:36:59 AM
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too high for field trial..should go low first then go up.Quote: ernestmiddle3.36% HE is what the website says ? ?
May 3rd, 2016 at 8:53:19 AM
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Quote: RoyalBJThis game was shown at 2015, table game conference, right?? I thought so. In the show, a patent attorney told there was a patent on the idea already. Not sure if he was right.
I don't know any information on the game and I'm not commenting on the existence of any infringement, but it is my understanding that a very similar game called "Dookie" (yes funny name) used to be played in a few casinos. Specifically, they used to have it in the same casino I had been involved with in northern Michigan.
I'm not sure this is the game the atty had been referring to, but the minimal amount of information that I do know about the game does sound strikingly similar to the the game in the OP. The object was to get a hand as bad as possible.... Perhaps that is why they moved to point values in place of a poker hand.
Again I do not know much.....
.
May 3rd, 2016 at 9:03:43 AM
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Quote: RoyalBJtoo high for field trial..should go low first then go up.
Incorrect:
1. The 3.36% indicates HE per Ante unit bet, not EoR. The effective EoR house edge on action is one-half that, or 1.68%, as it is a two-bet game.
2. Three Card Poker's per unit house edge is 3.37%, or one one-hundredths of a percentage point higher, with 1,500 world-wide installs at that house edge.
3. In field trial practice, the game if anything is too loose.
4. I generally agree to start loose then tighten up, but this was Sandy's game, not mine, and it plays really well at the tables as is. I think she called it right.
As for lawyers and issues of infringement, anyone can walk around a convention in a suit making legal claims, and it's all 100% B.S. and "windage" if a valid opinion is not written and a complaint is not filed. Trust me: 1) Talk is cheap, and 2) Sandy knows what she's doing, and had fine attorneys vet the IP. For all we know there may be an issue, but there are a million examples where "x looks like y" but is not. There are a lot of earlier "similar" games of all types that have either no valid patent backing them up, questionable IP backing them up, or expired IP. If she did her due diligence well, she's done more than a lot of designers had done.
Maybe this is why she selected certain mechanisms.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 3rd, 2016 at 9:40:24 AM
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Fair enough. I would imagine folks who haven't played any lowball poker games before won't care about rank vs. total pips scoring. Having played lowball poker before, I'm probably in the minority of carnival game players.Quote: PaigowdanIn designing a game, there's always going to be alternate ways and trade-offs when implementing a particular game mechanism. In this case: is it Ace-low versus Ace-high? Here, Ace is low because you'd want the Ace to be a positive card for the player, so A-2-4 is the lowest hand, not 5-3-2. For high card face-offs, is it lower hand points or lower top card? Here, a high-card hand versus a high card hand face-off wins with lower pip points. Sandy envisioned her game where a certain way is best, or best compromise, as all game designers do. As a result, there's always going to be some players who are put off, and others who are turned on, by the way some game mechanism is implemented until the players settle into a game.
Ain't that the truth!Quote:you cannot please all of the people all of the time.
"Dealer has 'rock'... Pay 'paper!'"
May 3rd, 2016 at 10:37:14 AM
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Duki 4 poker was a Joe Awada game.You tried to get one card of each suit. The games aren't really similar.Quote: mrsuit31I don't know any information on the game and I'm not commenting on the existence of any infringement, but it is my understanding that a very similar game called "Dookie" (yes funny name) used to be played in a few casinos. Specifically, they used to have it in the same casino I had been involved with in northern Michigan.
I'm not sure this is the game the atty had been referring to, but the minimal amount of information that I do know about the game does sound strikingly similar to the the game in the OP. The object was to get a hand as bad as possible.... Perhaps that is why they moved to point values in place of a poker hand.
Again I do not know much.....
Happy days are here again
May 3rd, 2016 at 10:42:55 AM
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Quote: HunterhillDuki 4 poker was a Joe Awada game.You tried to get one card of each suit. The games aren't really similar.
Appreciate the clarification. As you describe it, there is no similarity there to be worried about...
.
May 3rd, 2016 at 10:45:32 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanIncorrect:
1. The 3.36% indicates HE per Ante unit bet, not EoR. The effective EoR house edge on action is one-half that, or 1.68%, as it is a two-bet game.
2. Three Card Poker's per unit house edge is 3.37%, or one one-hundredths of a percentage point higher, with 1,500 world-wide installs at that ho...
Only time will tell if its correct or not. Don't be so sure.
3,card poker has been around for over 18 years, when a player loses a lot, he blames on his luck / skills / dealer / cards, not the rules. When losing a lot playing a new game, players blame on the game rules, and casino operator would just remove the game.
There is no break to game developers, in almost all cases. Don't u know that life is unfair? One challenge facing a new game is that you get compared to some old benchmarks.
High or low on HE depends on how intuitive the optimall strategy is. If no living humans could play optimally, the computer genersted HE should be set low.
May 3rd, 2016 at 11:05:45 AM
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True, but 3.36% of ante or 1.68% EoR is right in the wheelhouse, and as such is a fine assumption for the starting point HE.
However, I always apply a selectable range of house edge to any game that I design, to have an array of HE offerings in the 0.5% to 3.0% range (Sandy designed this game), and while selecting a looser initial HE. The "vanguard" first players won't get the strategy perfectly, and a loose game generates more buzz and player patronage; with selectable house edges, you can adjust and tighten up later, as the casino won't pull a table that has filled seats, unless it is always dumping.
And yes, strategy should be easy and sensible; this is called the "Poker Eye" effect of a new game: if the most likely eye-ball poker strategy gets the player fairly close to good optimal play, the game plays well and feels good and fair, a huge positive. That's a plus on 3 Card low ball - strategy is obvious, to break up poker elements such as a flush or a pair, and to ditch the high cards.
However, I always apply a selectable range of house edge to any game that I design, to have an array of HE offerings in the 0.5% to 3.0% range (Sandy designed this game), and while selecting a looser initial HE. The "vanguard" first players won't get the strategy perfectly, and a loose game generates more buzz and player patronage; with selectable house edges, you can adjust and tighten up later, as the casino won't pull a table that has filled seats, unless it is always dumping.
And yes, strategy should be easy and sensible; this is called the "Poker Eye" effect of a new game: if the most likely eye-ball poker strategy gets the player fairly close to good optimal play, the game plays well and feels good and fair, a huge positive. That's a plus on 3 Card low ball - strategy is obvious, to break up poker elements such as a flush or a pair, and to ditch the high cards.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 3rd, 2016 at 8:07:00 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanWell, Ernie!.....
It seems you have read the lab report. It is 1.68% EoR, or 3.36% per Ante unit bet as per BMM. "Charlie Ray" was a tad higher. WTH.
WTH Indeed My other post: " The HE of 3.36% seems to be in the ballpark for carnival games. " I got that figure on the website link on your original post !
May 3rd, 2016 at 9:11:03 PM
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Quote: ernestmiddleQuote: PaigowdanWell, Ernie!.....
It seems you have read the lab report. It is 1.68% EoR, or 3.36% per Ante unit bet as per BMM. "Charlie Ray" was a tad higher. WTH.
WTH Indeed My other post: " The HE of 3.36% seems to be in the ballpark for carnival games. " I got that figure on the website link on your original post !
Ahh, I did not see it there under games, but it was under "about us [at Roll-on Gaming LLC]" okay.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
May 16th, 2018 at 9:20:50 AM
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For those in town for the 2018 WoV Spring Fling, Three Card Loball Poker is having a second field trial, this time at Bally's. It previously had a field trial at the Railroad Pass, as reported in the thread NEW GAME 3 CARD LOW BALL AT RAILROAD PASS. The original post was one of the last by the late great Paigowdan.
I suspect they changed the rules in some significant want to need a new field trial or maybe the Railroad Pass yanked it before it completed the field trial. Here is a video about the Railroad Pass version.
Direct: https://wizardofodds.com/video/3-card-lowball-poker/
I suspect they changed the rules in some significant want to need a new field trial or maybe the Railroad Pass yanked it before it completed the field trial. Here is a video about the Railroad Pass version.
Direct: https://wizardofodds.com/video/3-card-lowball-poker/
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
