Up and running!!

I am proud to announce that Casino Over Under® is up and running at Magnolia Bluffs Casino in Natchez, MS. I need to thank everyone who chipped in with advice on my last thread. Of course, the advice I obtained from that thread was huge to say the least. Here is a little synopsis of the experience coming from my rookie perspective.

I never realized just how critical the dealers are in this process. It's absolutely amazing how different a game can look depending on who is dishing out the cards. Making sure the dealers not only understand the game but also are motivated is essential. I had Wayne Jones come with me to help with the training and that was one of the smartest decisions I made since commencing this journey. I contemplated trying it myself but that would not have been a good thing. Wayne was able to cover such issues as blind spots and chip handling techniques that covered the appropriate angles they should take as well as the proper way to handle misdeals. Some situations I anticipated but not all of them. For those that don't know, Wayne worked for Harrah's as a dealer initially and supervisor later in his 18 year career. After working for Harrah's he ran a few dealer training schools. However, his best attribute can not be taught and that is he has a gift in the way he is able to keep players engaged with just the right type of energy and pace. Lastly, a few of you predicted this and I thought to myself "no way" but I was wrong. It didn't take long to discover that my surrender option that seemed so harmless on the app can cause quite the stir for dealers learning the game for the first time. So, I eliminated the surrender option and ever since I did it was smooth sailing.


In addition to the importance of dealers, winning prospective players over was another interesting challenge. Clearly, there are all kinds of different players out there. However, it definitely appears like every player falls somewhere on the scale of just how reluctant they are to try new games in general. There are some that you can tell that as soon as they hear the word new they shut down. Most, in my opinion, just need a little coaxing to get them over the hump. Getting over that hurdle was definitely more difficult then selling them on the game once they were willing to try and learn. It was a tremendous help that I had nice little cards that condensed the rules down to three simple steps. (That little nugget came from one of you guys.) With that most people caught on fast and the math is undeniably player friendly which was clearly appreciated. That being said, 80% of the prospective players did not understand when I said the house edge for the base is 1.1% but I quickly switched that over to the odds are very friendly for players which worked much better. Surprisingly, I did not come across my biggest concern and that is my game is too simple or not challenging enough. I thought for sure I would hear that but so far I honestly haven't. Overall, the potential players and then players reactions made me very happy but obviously all that matters are the numbers. I will share those when I get them. I know that the 50 to 1 bonus hit twice on the first night which kind of bugged me out for a minute but then I thought the math is the math I suppose.


So there you have it. Glad to get that first one under my belt. I hope it does well. Since I returned I have a number of other casinos I am now talking with and it appears very likely that I will have a few other placements set here real soon. That is good because I would like to test it in as many areas as I can. At any rate, thanks again.

*****This site is a necessity for anyone looking to walk the path of creating a game and getting it in a casino. For me, it as important as having your math right.

Jason Kobal

Mazel Tov!

Best of luck!

Quote: kobalj

... I know that the 50 to 1 bonus hit twice on the first night which kind of bugged me out for a minute but then I thought the math is the math I suppose. ...

How often is that supposed to happen? What is the hands per hour?

Yeah, the math is the math. But Lady Luck can be a b*tch.

That also looked like an ad.
I did not flag.
There appear to be game designers on the forums, designers that wish to talk about game design.
No mention of permission requested or granted, again.
No flag from the feathered one. I remain somewhat bewildered.. Some genetic, some stubbornness.

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

That also looked like an ad.
I did not flag.
There appear to be game designers on the forums, designers that wish to talk about game design.
No mention of permission requested or granted, again.
No flag from the feathered one. I remain somewhat bewildered.. Some genetic, some stubbornness.

Wellllllll it is in the game business forum.

Quote: kobalj

I never realized just how critical the dealers are in this process. It's absolutely amazing how different a game can look depending on who is dishing out the cards. Making sure the dealers not only understand the game but also are motivated is essential.

Very true. When I tried dealer school it was clear that most of them rarely if ever even played the games. Gotta overcome that.

Congratulations, Kobalj! Nice job getting a placement, and great that they're willing to share the numbers. That will really help in several ways; selling it to other casinos, refining it if necessary, and negotiations with a distributor, if you decide to approach one. Keep us posted, please.

I apologize man. I can see why you interpreted that to be an ad. In my defense I made sure it was in the game inventors corner section. I actually very much consider myself smack dab in the thick of journey that I invented the game to go own. I definitely think explaining the details of this particular phase in the process is valuable info for those that are considering to try for themselves. From a selfish standpoint, I wanted to first thank all of the people that helped me prepare for the field trial and I'm always trying to soak up knowledge whenever I log in to this site. There's no other resource like it. It's comprised of actual legends, successful and experienced players in the industry, geniuses that went to Harvard and and even some regular people like myself. Sometimes I just read old posts I had nothing to do with bc there are nuggets everywhere. So I was just trying to do what little I could to contribute and show my respect and appreciation. When it comes to this really cool industry my game is about all I got other than some old gambling stories. Those are the reasons I continued w these threads about my field trial. I don't think many if any of you fall into my target audience either.

All that blabbering being said, the rules are the rules. I will be extra careful not to cross that line. I've never been a fan of getting flagged.

Congratulations, Kobalj.

I don't know why TwoFeathers had a bad reaction to your post. There's nothing in it that even remotely breaks any rules. I think 2F was just having a bad day.


On the plus side,:

Quote: TwoFeathersATL

I did not flag.

Congratulations! I look forward to trying it out one day after it spreads!

To answer your question tedy the probability of 6 or 33 happening is .00081. You asked about the hands per hour and I don't officially know that yet. The game has been running for less than a week so I have not received the numbers yet. Obviously, the number of hands played could greatly impact the significance of the 50 to 1 happening twice. My math guy says if they played 2000 hands over the entire first day there is an 80% it (6 or 33) hits at least once and at least twice around 50%. The trouble is I have no idea how many hands were dealt. I hope to find out soon. I'm just lucky I didn't go w some of my other pay tables. I have one that pays 300 to 1 for 6 or 33 and yet another that pays 500 to 1. Of course when you do that you have to lower the others or even eliminate sone of the winning numbers. However, given the attraction I witnessed to the Top 3 side bet it might have to be done. We shall see.

The stat I am really interested in seeing is the hands per hour after the game has been in there for a month or two. I say that bc even though it's easy I think it will take time for all of the dealers to get totally in their comfort zone but when they do the results will be key. I really tried to walk a fine line w this game. The house edge is low at 1.1% per ante but unlike BJ there are not going to be people straying so far from optimal play where the house experiences a double digit house edge on the base. I saw some pretty terrible BJ play last week to where the house's edge had to be 15% or even more. I literally saw a hard 17 hit against an 8. I saw a lot of staying w 13,14 and 15 against a dealers picture card. So in Casino Over Under that won't happen. Unless they are drunk I think most people will play optimally or very close to it. I wanted it that way bc I wanted players to feel what it is like to win. Winning is addictive in my opinion. Hell, I love winning. Since I'm targeting new players and intended on creating a softer alternative to BJ I thought that was the right play. However, too much winning and it is game over for me. That is why the hands per hour is key. I know it is faster than BJ but I am hoping it is considerably faster.

Thanks again everyone. If I'm ever out of line about anything let me know. I will always explain myself but at the end of the day I need this site more than it needs me so I will follow the rules. I don't take things personally either.

How's it going?

" I saw some pretty terrible BJ play last week to where the house's edge had to be 15% or even more." Not Really.

Imagine a mimic the dealer strategy. Hit till you get 17, no matter what the dealers up card is. Stay on any 17, even a soft 17.
Never double, never split. Thank about that. Hit your 16 against a six. Hit those 2 aces. and the two 8's. Never ever Double Down.

HE 5.48%

What??????? Wrong thread I think

I think not

Quote: ernestmiddle

I think not

You said it. If anyone agrees, would that be considered an insult or a compliment;-)

Quote: shrimpboatcapt

How's it going?

Coming up on a month of live play, there may be an update at that point.

Hello everyone. It has been a while. The game is now in its 11th week of its field trial. The average hold % since it started is now at 22.8%. That is good but the sample size is still too small for it to mean much. The drops have been all over the place but slowly but surely the game is starting to pick up some fans. In fact I just learned of what will be my second placement in Mississippi when a customer who played the game in Natchez asked about it at another location. Luckily, a dealer I had become friends with who used to work at Magnolia Bluffs was now working at this other casino where the customer had asked and it now appears like it will be my second placement. Still not official yet so I will hold off on the details.

Other than that I do my best to try and get the game in other casinos but as has been mentioned many times before this process is tough. It is not easy to even get the right people to listen to you let alone convince them when they do. But I understand why and respect the process for what it is.

I did have one really cool experience since I last chimed in that happened just a few weeks ago. I was invited out to the strip and had the honor of presenting my game to MGM Resorts at their monthly committee meeting. I had less than two weeks advance notice but I was able to go out and pitch the game MGM and a few other big time casinos. It was an unforgettable experience and hopefully the game will get a shot in the near future. However, even if it doesn't that was one hell of a cool life experience. Hope all is well w everyone.

22.8% is a good spot to be in after 11 weeks of the trial and it makes sense based on a 2% HE. Are they getting the table open daily or is COU more of a weekend only type game? Your hold figure will carry increased accuracy in pointing towards the longer term average hold given more in days of play and volume of drop. When you have data representing the same dollar volume of drop that a regular BJ table (@ MG) has over 90 days, that will be a real good indicator of long term hold for COU, even if that occurs in 4-6 months of COU play.

Is Magnolia Bluffs still dealing the game from a 6D Shoe? I recall there was some card counting vulnerability to the game, but that may have been previously addressed.

Have you been able to count actual hands per hour? I still believe that Casino War has to be the HPH King, even when considering an initial tie/War every 13 hands. I am not sure once you get to the speed of BJ or COU that additional HPH is a requirement. If the game moves quickly enough based on player reactions at the table and is holding sufficiently, then the game speed is a non-issue.

Perhaps it is time to bring this game to the Table Games Conference in November? You will have over 6 months of data from Magnolia Bluffs by then and get all kinds of feedback at the Conference from a geographically wide range of Table Games management types. I guess it depends on your best use of marketing dollars to secure future installations.

Good Luck!