Seeking advice for trial run

Hello everyone. To update you since my last post a few months ago my game Casino Over Under is now GLI approved. Also, I filed my first application in Mississippi. I have a trial run that I am just setting up the details for now and I have another trial run set up for a cruise line for this summer. The members of this site have given me valuable information throughout the entire process so I figure I'd go to the well once again.

What advice or tips can you give so I can get the most out of my upcoming trial runs? What should I do now in the time leading up to it, during and how do I utilize it afterwards assuming it goes well.

Quote: kobalj

Hello everyone. To update you since my last post a few months ago my game Casino Over Under is now GLI approved. Also, I filed my first application in Mississippi. I have a trial run that I am just setting up the details for now and I have another trial run set up for a cruise line for this summer. The members of this site have given me valuable information throughout the entire process so I figure I'd go to the well once again.

What advice or tips can you give so I can get the most out of my upcoming trial runs? What should I do now in the time leading up to it, during and how do I utilize it afterwards assuming it goes well.

Sounds countable.

You will get feedback from the places of the game's introductions.
1. Do not baby sit or sweat the game; it must do well of its own accord.
2. Be ready to train the game, and answer any questions of it.
3. Consider game comments from customers appropriately. There might be good ideas or fixes supplied to you if something comes up. Ignore all patronizing comments as well as put-downs as useless "two-cents" comments, there'll be a lot of those. You're looking for game issues and improvements. The table's action (drop/hold) will tell you how it is performing.

PM Paradigm at this forum, he earlier released a game called Easy Over Under. Be aware that there are several dozen Over Under type games developed and released that didn't catch on. Be pragmatic.
Best of luck.

Have a friendly friend play and talk to the other players and dealers about the game and what they think. That's a good way to find out some truth.

Just have Axel play the game for 10 minutes and you'll get a bunch of good suggestions.

Thanks everyone. Good stuff like always.

I am aware of Easy Over Under and I am aware of the side bet. What other over/under games were there? I would love to see what they were like.

Quote: kobalj

What advice or tips can you give so I can get the most out of my upcoming trial runs? What should I do now in the time leading up to it, during and how do I utilize it afterwards assuming it goes well.

Support the game as well as you possibly can. Here are some specific pointers.

1. Provide the training yourself.
2. Make sure the casino is stocked with plenty of rule cards. I'd suggest starting with a shoe box full of them.
3. Visit the game frequently. Show that you care how it is doing.
4. Try to discretely get player feedback. Keep in mind players will probably bend their opinion to tell you what you want to hear.

Finally, this opinion may be controversial, but I'd at least consider hiring shills to play it. Preferably female. Most players hate to be the guinea pig on a new game so it is very helpful to see other players on the game already.

Quote: Wizard

...This opinion may be controversial, but I'd at least consider hiring shills to play it. Preferably female. Most players hate to be the guinea pig on a new game so it is very helpful to see other players on the game already.

While I understand the desired effect of chumming the waters, is hiring props or shills allowed by the law in all jurisdictions?

Stop calling it a "trial run." The correct term is "field trial."

It may seem minor, but use the incorrect terminology, and you, and your game, will lose credibility.

I will. Thank you everyone. I feel much better about how I can contribute to my upcoming field trials.

Oh - very important: add a quick basic strategy for the game on the rack card. The better the players play your game, the better it they like it and praise it.

Quote: Wizard

Finally, this opinion may be controversial, but I'd at least consider hiring shills to play it. Preferably female. Most players hate to be the guinea pig on a new game so it is very helpful to see other players on the game already.

What works best here in my opinion, is someone at the table with chips that is able to play a few hands and explain the strategy decisions they are making while playing their hand.

What this overcomes is a player walking up to an empty table asking about the game and then not totally getting the game concept from the dealer's explanation alone. That is when the "I don't want to be a guinea pig with my own money at risk" syndrome is most present. There is nothing like being able to see a few hands played after the dealer explanation to "get" the game concept and then make a decision that you are willing to risk your own money on the shiny new game (then just pray that those next three hands go well for the player, cause it is the only shot you have!).

The problem is that rarely will a property allow you to play your own game, so hence the need for an additional body to be that player. They don't need to be constantly playing the game...that will cost you a lot of money. They just need to be present, ready to play and willing to say "Watch me play a few hands and I'll show you how to play the game correctly" when you get an inquisitive player that walks up to the table and says "How do you play this game?"

While I agree with PGD on not "babysitting" your game and that a game does have to stand on its own, there is nothing wrong with priming the pump here as the deal staff are just starting the field trial. The deal staff and the game will need to stand on their own and within 30 days, all the deal staff should have the dealing procedures down (because there will be errors in the first 30 days and you want those corrected) and have a script down on how to the best explain the game to new players. Between Day 1 and Day 30 during peak business hours for the property, you watch for dealing procedural errors, tweak that script as you learn what does and doesn't work when explaining the game and address every other hiccup that is encountered.

Keep in mind that an Over Under bet is a foreign concept to many table game players (not everyone is a knowledgeable sports bettor) and as I recall, your game has a "dead range" where both the over and under bets will lose...that is a foreign concept to even sports bettors (there is no bet that is Patriots over 45/Patriots under 38...the known bet is Patriots over/under 42). If your game does indeed have the "dead range" that is going to be foreign (or "alien" as PGD likes to say) and will also be a objection to the game play so you will need to have an answer to that query ("you mean I couldn't have won either way if the card total is in this range?")

With the deal staff up to date and in full comprehension of the game specifics by day 30, that is when you need to let the "little birdie fly on its own". Unfortunately 99 out of 100 birdies are going to flap their wings twice and crash down 60' from the nest to their death...but you already know that :-)!

Quote: Ayecarumba

While I understand the desired effect of chumming the waters, is hiring props or shills allowed by the law in all jurisdictions?

I can't speak for every jurisdiction, but in Nevada you're not supposed to manipulate the outcome of a field trial.

FWIW, I was not allowed to sit at the table, let alone bet or play, when my game was on trial in Nev, or when it was in play in Iowa or Delaware. Not sure if I could have played in WA state, but don't think I could (Paradigm would know that particular state better than me). I could be nearby in those places.

WA rules vary from casino to casino on whether a vendor can play at their table or any table. I don't know of any WSGC rule forbidding vendors playing at casinos in which they have product. Tribal casinos look to their Tribal Gaming Commissions. Card rooms are private owned businesses and it depends on managements position on this issue.

I know a game inventor who did shill his field trial game in Washington. Not saying it was allowed but I got the impression, perhaps incorrectly, that the state never said "yes" or "no" on the question of shills.

Wow forgot about that - what was the name of that game again bbb

Thanks again. This site is such an incredible asset for someone crazy enough to try to pull off the miracle of getting a new game into casinos. What's really cool is that most of the crazies that ever pulled it off are members here which I suppose makes them competitors yet there's no place better than this site for someone to find advice on the subject. You don't see that every day. At least not in my field. I may not post a whole lot but I'm always reading and the information is priceless.

As far as the chances go, yes, I am aware that 99 out of 100 fail. But you can't hit a home run without an at bat and at least I appeared to have achieved that. It's been a long time coming too. I kept the idea as just a thought in my mind for 20 years. In 1996 while attending Penn State my roommate and I determined that we figured out how to beat BJ. Looking back it's utterly embarrassing but I think all of us did stupid things at the age of 19. At any rate, we devised a system that I don't entirely remember but I recall it being one of those systems where you increase your wager as you lose and the only way for it to fail is if you lost 8 hands in a row. I suppose I hadn't learned the meaning of mutual exclusivity yet. Rightfully so, the gambling gods ensured we lost 8 in a row within the first 20 minutes of our trip. Since it was a bus trip that left 7.5 hours of not being able to gamble or even buy a soda. We lost it all. So as we sat there in utter disgust I just watched people play BJ for the entire time. I watched new players make mistakes and pay for it dearly. I'm not talking about the money they lost either. The stares and comments from the other players that felt robbed from the poor decisions the new blood made were off the chain mean. I'd watch what you could tell were new players buy chips, get embarrassed, and lose miserably. I wondered how many of them never played a table game again after such an experience. That's when I came up with Casino Over Under. I felt that new players should have an easy game they can actually win a good bit by playing optimally w/o a cheat sheet. There is a dead zone and I agree it doesn't exist in sports gambling but it did in the pools conducted by the RIverside High School boosters club in Taylor, PA back in 1982. My grandfather had me playing pick'em at the age of 6. I remember if the total on the game was 45 the o/u would be under 44 and over 46. I had no idea that was terribly unfair nor did I realize that I would never see it on football cards for the rest of my life.

So there's the story no one asked for but I told anyway. I kept the idea quiet b/c I never had the means to actually try and pull it off. Now that I have and I made it this far it's all gravy from here. I can't wait to see my game in a real casino. It's going to be one heck of cool experience I am sure. (Then that feeling will dissolve like everything else and I will be freaking out trying to do everything in my power to help the game and if the bird doesn't fly I will be flipping crushed. lol)

Quote: kobalj

I felt that new players should have an easy game they can actually win a good bit by playing optimally w/o a cheat sheet.

Casino War fairly EZ

Quote: kobalj

...
What advice or tips can you give so I can get the most out of my upcoming trial runs? What should I do now in the time leading up to it, during and how do I utilize it afterwards assuming it goes well.

My two cents worth ...

BEFORE THE TRIAL

1) Make sure you have no lingering doubts about your game; if you do, players will too. So even though you have math and jurisdictional approvals done, remove the doubts by fixing your game before the trial begins - even if that may entail only what may seem like a minor issue such as wording on the layout or rack card. Every detail is important.

2) If possible, get a commitment from the sponsoring casino to provide performance data for a specified length of time.

3) By all means, follow PGD's recommendation to provide a simple basic strategy for your game on the rack card. Also make sure that the entirety of this very important promotional piece, as well as the layout, is as clear and concise as possible.

DURING THE TRIAL

1) Dealer training is usually conducted during the last few days leading up to the trial. Make sure you are involved in the training and are able to repetitively express a 15-second (or less) opening script for dealers to use for introducing the game's main feature to the new players - and a short follow-up script to describe any procedures and secondary features. Do your very best to detect any common, or even isolated, initial misunderstandings about the rules or dealing procedures. I can almost promise that you will encounter one or more surprise(s). DO NOT ignore or dismiss any dealer misunderstandings or misconceptions; clear them up.

2) While I agree with PGD's advice not to 'baby-sit' or 'sweat' your game, you should stick around for the start-up of the trial to observe and/or play the game. The primary value of this activity is not so much to 'shill' the game but rather to listen to the comments of (a) players participating at the table, (b) players who approach the table and leave, and (c) dealers who explain the game and field questions from players. You will gain invaluable first-hand information by simply listening and observing. The 'script(s)' may need tweaking, dealer errors can be observed and subsequently corrected, or the game itself may need 'tweaking.' Better to have this knowledge sooner than later when it's too late to take any remedial action.

NOTE: You can easily find out whether or not you are allowed to play your game by simply asking - first your primary contact at the property. I'm sure the rule on this varies from gaming authority to gaming authority and even property to property within a gaming jurisdiction. As an example, I have been told 'no,' 'I don't know,' and 'yes' in the same jurisdiction (Mississippi). The 'I don't know' answer was given with the permission to play if there was no gaming commission prohibition against it. I asked the Mississippi Gaming Commission and was told there was no rule that an inventor couldn't play his Commission-approved game. So I'm allowed to play in that property.

AFTER THE TRIAL

This will be easy if the the trial goes well, especially if you are armed with good performance data that you can use to promote your game to other properties or distributors. But check back in if you need any help or advice at that point, or at least to let us congratulate you. GOOD LUCK!

Yes, Casino War is easy but is it too simple? I think there is a HUGE void between Casino War and BJ and that is what I intended on my game filling. Another way to look at it is Casino War is my target game. I am hoping most new players will opt to play my game as opposed to Casino War. Me personally, I have spent quite a bit of time in casinos primarily playing BJ and occasionally dabbling with the others but I have never played war. I just can't do it. I'm hoping Casino Over Under is on the other side of that fine line I feel Casino War crossed in being too simple.

Not to mention Casino War has a HE 2.5 times higher than Casino Over Under. I'm hoping players will prefer mine b/c they are more likely to win. From the casinos perspective the hands per hour in Casino Over Under is considerably higher than war or anything for that matter. At least that I am aware of.

Wow! Lucky your two cents are worth much more than two cents. Thanks for the great advice.

Quote: kobalj

....From the casinos perspective the hands per hour in Casino Over Under is considerably higher than war or anything for that matter....

Not sure that can be an accurate statement. Casino War is make a bet, deal a player card and dealer card, resolve wagers...I don't know of any live table game that has a higher hands per hour than Casino War.

Here is a write up on BBB's Ultimate Casino War that was in play at Barona (not sure of current status) Ultimate Casino War. I believe it was offered as "One for the Money" in at least one card room in WA. BBB's game added a couple of basic strategy decisions to standard Casino War.

Simple and engaging for repetitive play by the same players is a very tough recipe...in fact you could say it is worth millions due to scarcity!!

Ok. This is dangerous territory for me as I am not a math expert like so many of you guys. However, I never like people thinking I make inaccurate statements. If I have I want to understand the error and never do it again. Also, as I have indicated I don't play war so maybe this is wrong but are the rules really as simple as "Casino War is make a bet, deal a player card and dealer card, resolve wagers"? I thought if a player at the table and the dealer have the same valued card then they wage war or something and cards are burned and there's a few more steps for wagering. (I believe the player places a wager and the dealer a pretend one or something like that?) At any rate, my dealer help Wayne Jones told me that is what slows Casino War down to be about the same pace as BJ.

Does that sound right?

https://wizardofodds.com/gambling/house-edge/

Wizard has BJ faster than Casino War. That's what Wayne says as well.

Some of the hands per hour figures don't seem right. Let it ride 52 hands per hour and war only 65 . I would be surprised if let it ride is more than 40 and I think war could be 100.

I would think that is a tough stat to analyze b/c there are so many moving parts. The speed of the dealer, the type of players, number of decks and the players coming and going are some off the top of my head. Until I have hard evidence from a real live casino that element has limited value. However, my expectations are that the live play will show that the hands per hour stat to be very high.

BJ is the game I know best so comparing it to that I think it's clear which game has a faster pace and BJ is pretty fast. I would love to hear feedback from you guys on this subject. Here's what I think.

- If the avg number of cards dealt per player including the dealer in BJ on a 7 player table is around 2.9/hand then that is an average of 23 cards dealt per round.
- Casino Over Under has 21 to be dealt as the player will always get 3 cards and there is no dealer. SLight difference but I then look at how the cards are dealt.

-In BJ the first 16 cards of a round are dealt fairly quickly prior to the first decision then the last 7 per round are dealt less efficiently due to the decisions. Some are very tough for newer players that must take a second or two or three.
- Casino Over Under there are always only 7 decisions and they are almost always easy decisions. There aren't many tough decisions at all (Maybe if your delt the 6?) and the 2nd and 3rd cards are dealt together one right after the other. The pace is almost like playing with two cards per hand as opposed to three.

According to Wayne Jones who has dealt the game the most, he says the pace is pretty consistent and efficient. He said most players have their mind made up before he asks them to declare so when he gets to them they have the answer ready.

Does that seem correct or am I missing something? If so please explain.

Although it seems like a good idea to take a placement at any casino just to get your game off the ground, having this game at Palace Station seems like a death bed if you're planning to charge them after the field trial.

Palace Station doesn't seem to be the proper market for this type of game. If they're getting it free after the field trial, and it stays in while you try to sell it elsewhere, then you'll have a good selling point. If not, this game seems doomed at there.

Is this filed trial at Palace Station?

I thought most, if not all, field trial tables are free for life.

Quote: Wizard

Finally, this opinion may be controversial, but I'd at least consider hiring shills to play it. Preferably female. Most players hate to be the guinea pig on a new game so it is very helpful to see other players on the game already.

How do you compensate the shills? What is the fair hourly rate?
I am sure the shills are playing with your money. Who pockets the winning if there is any?

I don't know anything about Palace Station nor have I had any contact with them whatsoever. However, it is now official as of yesterday, the field trial is at the Magnolia Bluffs Casino in Natchez, Ms. I am beyond stoked!! I appreciate all of the help from so many of you guys. For those who think it won't work the odds are on your side. But opinion time is just about over. The results will speak for themselves.

Congrats!!! First game and a great accomplishment. Any field trial is hard to get.

Quote: kobalj

Does that seem correct or am I missing something? If so please explain.

I have no inside knowledge of the industry, but from personal experience, resolving side bets always seems to be a big factor in hands per hour. Most BJ games I see either have no side bets or if they do, rarely have many people playing them.

Carnival games, on the other hand, usually seem to have them, and just about everybody plays them. In fact, I sometimes get berated if I don't play the side bet!

Have you factored resolving the side bet into your hph analysis?

Edit: Forgot to say 'congrats' on the field trial! Best of luck with your game going forward!

Quote: kobalj

... it is now official as of yesterday, the field trial is at the Magnolia Bluffs Casino in Natchez, Ms. I am beyond stoked!! I appreciate all of the help from so many of you guys. For those who think it won't work the odds are on your side. But opinion time is just about over. The results will speak for themselves.

Congratulations on getting the field trial!

This is a rare accomplishment for a new game inventor, and you've taken an important step in testing the real world viability of your game.

Please post the start date when you know it.

Great point Joeman. The bonus feature in my game would affect the HPH but not very much. It will have zero affect on decisions as the bonus is either place at the same time as the ante or not at all. If it is place with the ante there are no decisions like there are with the over/under base game. If the bonus is placed it will pay out if the three card total end up on one of the extremes of being a really high over or really low under. So the only difference to the HPH would be for people that played both the base and the bonus those players wagers will be resolved by two actions by the dealer as opposed to just one. So I think it matters but not enough to account for the disparity that cames from the extra decisions in BJ. Also, like I said , not only are there more decisions in BJ there are a lot more tough decisions which may require some thought by some players. The fact my game has a limited number of challenges is what it is and maybe it will be its downfall. However, the fact there are so few is why the game motors the way it does. I'm sure there will be some actions junkies that appreciate that pace or at least I hope so.

Quote: Paradigm

Not sure that can be an accurate statement. Casino War is make a bet, deal a player card and dealer card, resolve wagers...I don't know of any live table game that has a higher hands per hour than Casino War.

Here is a write up on BBB's Ultimate Casino War that was in play at Barona (not sure of current status) Ultimate Casino War. I believe it was offered as "One for the Money" in at least one card room in WA. BBB's game added a couple of basic strategy decisions to standard Casino War.

Simple and engaging for repetitive play by the same players is a very tough recipe...in fact you could say it is worth millions due to scarcity!!

Thanks, Paradigm! Last I heard (January) it's being played at Crowne Melbourne (Australia) as Poker War, may still be at Barona as Ultimate Casino War, and is in Birmingham, England at Genting's as One for the Money. Might be at one other British casino.

Kobalj; congrats on the field trial! I wish you much success and many placements.

I see you mentioned Crowne Melbourne. I only discovered that casino a few months ago but Oh my word...... That casino is amazing!! I have never been there but I put it on my bucket list b/c it looks incredible. Has anyone in here been there? I have been downright harassing Brad Waldron to give my game a shot. Obviously to no avail or you would have heard me blabbing about it.

Thanks for the compliments. I have enjoyed this process. It's by no means an easy one. It definitely takes thick skin to handle all of the rejection and perseverance. For me personally, I feel like I learn something every single day yet still feel I've only scratched the surface on understanding what's what. However, I know it's right up my alley b/c it has my passion meter on a level it hasn't been at in a long, long, time.