NTEK / NTGL
Quote: Zcore13I don't understand how NTGL can go up today 41% when they have no Staff. That's in addition to never selling anything and having no cash.
What am I missing?
ZCore13
It sounds like you might need a better general understanding of how markets work. The closing price of the stock is just what the last trade went off at. In the penny stock arena it is not uncommon for us to have an understanding that I will put X shares up for sale right before closing at price Y. You agree to buy them for that price and as long as noone else makes a trade price Y will be what the current stock price is listed at.
Example: Both you and I have many shares of NTGL. I tell you that at 3:58pm I am going to list 5 shares of stock for $1 each. You log on and buy 5 shares of stock at 3:59pmfor $1. If no one else buys stock before closing NTGL is going to show a stock price of $1 until someone buys shares the next day. The perception is now that the stock went way up and the pump and dump firms will be calling everybody that night telling them about this hot stock and they should buy some.
Quote: DRichIt sounds like you might need a better general understanding of how markets work. The closing price of the stock is just what the last trade went off at. In the penny stock arena it is not uncommon for us to have an understanding that I will put X shares up for sale right before closing at price Y. You agree to buy them for that price and as long as noone else makes a trade price Y will be what the current stock price is listed at.
Example: Both you and I have many shares of NTGL. I tell you that at 3:58pm I am going to list 5 shares of stock for $1 each. You log on and buy 5 shares of stock at 3:59pmfor $1. If no one else buys stock before closing NTGL is going to show a stock price of $1 until someone buys shares the next day. The perception is now that the stock went way up and the pump and dump firms will be calling everybody that night telling them about this hot stock and they should buy some.
Yeah, I have no clue about this stuff. For everything I've seen and learned recently, it seems like a good majority of penny stocks are "shaky" in terms of legitimacy, to say the least. I guess when you can pick up 50,000 shares for $500 there's always someone with more money then they know what to do with willing to take a chance as well.
ZCore13
Quote: DRichIt sounds like you might need a better general understanding of how markets work....
I could use a better understanding too. Let's say the fair price of a share is $1. Suppose two people who want to drive up the price agree to this scheme to sell one share for $1.40 a minute before closing. However, wouldn't there be a bunch of people with "sell at" orders for a little over $1, which would take priority? I think a fair way to set a "fair price" as the average of the highest "buy at" and lowest "sell at" orders if there isn't a lot of volume.
For example, at Betfair, you can buy Hilary to be president at 1.58 and sell it at 1.59. So, I'd call the fair price 1.585.
Quote: WizardI could use a better understanding too. Let's say the fair price of a share is $1. Suppose two people who want to drive up the price agree to this scheme to sell one share for $1.40 a minute before closing. However, wouldn't there be a bunch of people with "sell at" orders for a little over $1, which would take priority? I think a fair way to set a "fair price" as the average of the highest "buy at" and lowest "sell at" orders if there isn't a lot of volume.
For example, at Betfair, you can buy Hilary to be president at 1.58 and sell it at 1.59. So, I'd call the fair price 1.585.
You are correct in your thinking but the number of owners of these stocks is very low, I wouldn't be surprsied if a lot of these stocks are owned by less than 100 people. With so few owners there is not much liquidity and the market makers can manipulate the prices.
Other than company insiders most of the stock is owned by the market makers and they are not not really investors. Their goal is to constantly buy and sell shares because they charge either a commission or they set the spread between they buy and the sell price such that they make the difference between the two. An example would be setting the ask price at $1.65 and the bid price at $1.55. They would expect to make 10 cents for every share they buy and sell.
I believe something is worth what you can get somebody else to pay for it. That said, if somebody wanted to sell 1,000,000 shares of NTEK, how would he do it and what would he get?
Quote: WizardThank you.
That said, if somebody wanted to sell 1,000,000 shares of NTEK, how would he do it and what would he get?
A 3 day visit to the psych ward for the buyer.
ZCore13
Quote: WizardThank you.
I believe something is worth what you can get somebody else to pay for it. That said, if somebody wanted to sell 1,000,000 shares of NTEK, how would he do it and what would he get?
sigh.. I still have 5k shares @.10/share :(
I guess sell now and take the easy tax loss vs ntek going bankrupt and complicated tax filings?
Quote: Zcore13I don't understand how NTGL can go up today 41% when they have no Staff. That's in addition to never selling anything and having no cash.
What am I missing?
There were only about $5k in total trades for the entire day. Illiquid stocks are very easy to manipulate if one holds a ton of shares. Insiders hold the vast majority of free-trading stock in NTGL.
I expect an announcement of a totally new company moving into the NTGL shell any day now.
Imagine a live Hold'em table at a Casino. If you control 9 of the 10 seats it wouldn't be very hard to wipe out that 10th person at the table - especially if they weren't aware that the same person was playing the other 9 hands and coordinating the betting against them. They might even let that 10th man win a few hands to keep him putting more money in.
That's the OTC (aka Penny Stocks).
Quote: 100xOddsI guess sell now and take the easy tax loss vs ntek going bankrupt and complicated tax filings?
I once had a lot of stock in this PoS company: XPDR. It just faded away. I still don't understand what happened but it was like everybody who worked there was either fired or just walked away.
Anyway, for my taxes I put down an arbitrary "sell" date, roughly around when the stock quit trading, and a sell price of zero. The IRS never questioned it.
Quote: WizardI once had a lot of stock in this PoS company: XPDR. It just faded away. I still don't understand what happened but it was like everybody who worked there was either fired or just walked away.
I just briefly glanced at it but it appears they went dark in 2001 (meaning they stopped reporting to the SEC). Those end up being called zombie tickers that still trade although no information is available - generally the people behind them close up shop without filing bankruptcy (just walk away).
For years there was a huge problem with unscrupulous people hijacking such dormant shells and then issuing themselves tons of fresh stock to dump on the market off of false new made-up hype they spew on the internet. It still happens today.
I don't know if XPDR was one of those (didn't look that close) but they were suspended by the SEC in one of the few mass-crackdowns they had on such dormant shells. XPDR was suspended in May 2012 in a single action targeting 379 such companies:
www.sec.gov/litigation/suspensions/2012/34-66980.pdf
"The Commission temporarily suspended trading in these securities because of questions that have been raised about the accuracy and adequacy of publicly disseminated information concerning the companies’ operating status, if any."
NOTE: don't be confused by "temporary". A 'temporary" suspension by the SEC of an OTC issuer is the end, as no Market Maker can publish quotes on it.
Quote: SkepticI just briefly glanced at it ...
Thanks for looking into it. A lot of that I didn't know. In the case of XPDR, I don't think anybody hijacked the company but they probably quit filing reports to the SEC because everybody jumped the ship and there was nobody to do it.
no inventory, no staff, why does the
stock keep going up? Every time you
call, no matter the time of day, it goes
straight to a private voice mail account.
Are they even at the building on Dean
Martin, or have they been evicted.
Current price is $1
I have 1 million shares
A friend of mine has 1 million shares
I buy 10000 of his for $5 each right before the final bell. Are my shares now worth $5. I then sell them and make profit, or I guess there has to be someone to buy them or is that what the wolf on Wallstreet stuff is about?
Sigh, I should just go back to not trying to figure it out.
Quote: GWAESo damn confusing. Could thr following happen?
Current price is $1
I have 1 million shares
A friend of mine has 1 million shares
I buy 10000 of his for $5 each right before the final bell. Are my shares now worth $5. I then sell them and make profit, or I guess there has to be someone to buy them or is that what the wolf on Wallstreet stuff is about?
Sigh, I should just go back to not trying to figure it out.
I think you just figured it out. It is only worth what someone is will to pay you when you sell. BTW, your buddy just made $40,000 off of you.
Quote: AxelWolfAhigh Is currently helping the homeless. I think he is just fine. I think he will be just fine.
He was also proving dice control and changing the casino world. Any chance you want to buy some of my land in Florida? It comes with water features and outdoor pets free.
ZCore13
Quote: MrVNow that he's out of NTGL, he would have no perceived conflict of interest which would prevent him from freely posting here.
He is three months into a one-year self suspension. So, no, he can't return until he does his time.
Well then, would he be welcome at WoVCon?
He's attended before.
For that matter, is there a policy as to whether banned or suspended members would be welcome to attend?
Sort of a "Walking Dead" thing.
And what if a banned member did show up? Do they get double nuked? Or do you all attack them with calculators and pocket protectors?Quote: MrVOh.
Well then, would he be welcome at WoVCon?
He's attended before.
For that matter, is there a policy as to whether banned or suspended members would be welcome to attend?
Sort of a "Walking Dead" thing.
ZCore13
Wouldn't that be a hoot.Quote: Mission146I'm curious as to how a WoV ban could ever possibly extend to prohibiting someone from being at a public place. That being said, individual Members would certainly have the right to decide whether or not they actually want to speak to the person. I'm actually looking forward to hanging out with AHigh one of these years, we were supposed to on my last Vegas trip, but plans fell through on my end the first day and on his end the day we'd rescheduled for, as I recall. That might not be right, though.
Quote: MrVOh.
Well then, would he be welcome at WoVCon?
He's attended before.
Sure. I'd be happy to have him.
Quote:For that matter, is there a policy as to whether banned or suspended members would be welcome to attend?
Sort of a "Walking Dead" thing.
It would depend on the particular person. Ultimately, I can't say somebody can't show up to a public place, but some banned members I'd be happy to see but most I wouldn't.
Quote: WizardSure. I'd be happy to have him.
It would depend on the particular person. Ultimately, I can't say somebody can't show up to a public place, but some banned members I'd be happy to see but most I wouldn't.
The guys you wouldn't want to see are probably basement dwellers who never actually go anywhere in the first place.
Quote: WizardIt would depend on the particular person. Ultimately, I can't say somebody can't show up to a public place, but some banned members I'd be happy to see but most I wouldn't.
I'll let Mickey know when/where your next WoVcon is :)
Quote: AxelWolfThe guys you wouldn't want to see are probably basement dwellers who never actually go anywhere in the first place.
hey, I'm frequently in a poker room or in front of a video poker machine trying to make the next level of Diamond.
oh.. same thing
Quote: MrVWell then, would he be welcome at WoVCon?
He's attended before.
Yes, Ahigh has joined us for several past gatherings and has been a welcome addition to the group. At that time, he was having some on-forum conflicts with some members, but I don't recall it having to do with his employment/position. In-person, there was no conflict at all -- he even brought his son along to a couple of meals. I hope he does join us again this year.
At the craps table, he really seems to enjoy agitating the dealers, putting them through their paces, but he is just fine with the other players.
NTGL has a market cap of about 5.45 million dollars. GLXZ (Galaxy Gaming) has a market cap of 9.07 million.
NTGL has never sold a product to a casino and is not licensed to distribute their product in any State (as far as I know). GLXZ is the 2nd largest table games distributor in the world and has shown increasing profits every year (and just about every quarter) for multiple years in a row.
But somehow NTGL total stock is worth over 55% of what GLXZ is. How is that possible? Is NTGL all just hype from word of mouth from their employees and crooked stock brokers?
ZCore13
Quote: Zcore13I just noticed something that made me laugh, but maybe I don't understand "Market Cap" completely...
NTGL has a market cap of about 5.45 million dollars. GLXZ (Galaxy Gaming) has a market cap of 9.07 million.
I've commented on this before, but when the market cap was about 9 million. It makes me wonder if the current stock price is an accurate indicator of is value. If one thinks it is overvalued, is it possible to short it?
About shorting this: probably very hard to do (usually not possible) with something this thinly traded. I see today the total value of all activity was less than $1,300. If it was possible, something so illiquid as this would also be an extraordinarily high-risk short sale, even assuming perfect knowledge of company internals and absolute prescience on the correct long term value, because it would be so easy to get caught in a "short squeeze" from a meaningless temporary blip that wipes you out (or for someone who hates you to create one overnight without breaking a sweat or a piggy bank). "A market can be irrational longer than you can remain solvent."
Are you sure about a prior market cap of 9b for this? I didn't spend much time looking very hard at all, but in the historical (split adjusted) price history I looked at I didn't find anything that would get it anywhere near there, or even within shouting distance of a hundredth of that. But I have never followed this closely or spent any meaningful time looking into it, so I could easily be missing something. Right now 9b would be more than a fifth as much as the market valuation of LVS, the biggest casino company on the planet, and I agree that would have to be ludicrously overvalued regardless of how enthusiastic someone ever was about this and their potential. If insiders controlled most of the shares at that valuation they could've used them to swallow up effective control of Sands or Wynn or MGM in a hostile takeover. Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with that. A furry kitty-cat suit like something I think I saw earlier in this thread a while back might not be such a bad idea for dressing up the naked exterior of a place that always looked to me like a giant UPS mother ship that's expecting to have lotsa little brown airborne vans buzzing around it. And conversion to a giant pinball machine could be a fine ending for the mess that was supposed to become The Harmon at City Center.
Quote: DrawingDeadI don't know much at all about the market for proprietary table games (pretty much nada) but if Galaxy is the 2nd largest such enterprise then that business must not amount to much of anything. Glancing at their most recent income statement, I see their total revenue (gross receipts) for 2014 was less than ten million. There are neighborhood convenience stores grossing more than 10m. And at 22k their "net income from continuing operations" for that year was down to less than what a member of this forum just spent on a used car.
Galaxy generated $2.3M of cash from operations for the 9 months ended 9/30/15...the neighborhood convenience store comes no where near that level of cash flow. Unfortunately the vast majority of that cash flow has gone to service debt since the Prime Table Games acquisition. The question is will the cash flow generated by Galaxy be sufficient to make the required Prime Table Games debt payments over the next three years and/or can they refinance said debt under more favorable cash flow terms. I believe they will accomplish one or both of those between now and the end of 2018.
Quote: ParadigmGalaxy generated $2.3M of cash from operations for the 9 months ended 9/30/15...the neighborhood convenience store comes no where near that level of cash flow. Unfortunately the vast majority of that cash flow has gone to service debt since the Prime Table Games acquisition. The question is will the cash flow generated by Galaxy be sufficient to make the required Prime Table Games debt payments over the next three years and/or can they refinance said debt under more favorable cash flow terms. I believe they will accomplish one or both of those between now and the end of 2018.
Actually assuming the "neighborhood C-Store" sells gas, they blow this number away. You are only looking at 55K a week in inside sales and most chain store do this in business without fuel sales. Cigarettes alone make up a majority of this number.
As for the Galaxy cash flow numbers, I have no clue, but you would be shocked at how much cash comes into your local C-Store.
Quote: Boz
As for the Galaxy cash flow numbers, I have no clue, but you would be shocked at how much cash comes into your local C-Store.
There's a C store near me that has 10 pumps, 3
cashiers there 12 hours, 2 cashiers the other 12.
Walk in beer cooler, hard liquor sales, huge
snack aisle that is constantly restocked, couple
of grocery aisles. Busy every time I go there,
even at night. If they aren't doing north of
40K-50K a day, something is wrong. People
laugh at the Quickie Mart guy on the Simpsons,
but those guys buy a new Mercedes every
two years.
Quote: ParadigmGalaxy generated $2.3M of cash from operations for the 9 months ended 9/30/15...the neighborhood convenience store comes no where near that level of cash flow. Unfortunately the vast majority of that cash flow has gone to service debt since the Prime Table Games acquisition. The question is will the cash flow generated by Galaxy be sufficient to make the required Prime Table Games debt payments over the next three years and/or can they refinance said debt under more favorable cash flow terms. I believe they will accomplish one or both of those between now and the end of 2018.
Quote: DrawingDeadAre you sure about a prior market cap of 9b for this?
Sorry, I meant 9m.
They're making some headway on getting the debt ratio down, but >80% is still pretty high. Even before the PTG buyout they were high:Quote: ParadigmGalaxy generated $2.3M of cash from operations for the 9 months ended 9/30/15...the neighborhood convenience store comes no where near that level of cash flow. Unfortunately the vast majority of that cash flow has gone to service debt since the Prime Table Games acquisition. The question is will the cash flow generated by Galaxy be sufficient to make the required Prime Table Games debt payments over the next three years and/or can they refinance said debt under more favorable cash flow terms. I believe they will accomplish one or both of those between now and the end of 2018.
GLXZ balance sheet chart
And then there's DEQ. They have no debt but over $20M in accumulated deficit...
DEQ balance sheet chart
Either way, total assets are going down for both firms.
Has nothing to do with cash in hand or profits other then to the extent at which it is already reflected in the price of stock
Quote: MathExtremistThey're making some headway on getting the debt ratio down, but >80% is still pretty high. Even before the PTG buyout they were high:
GLXZ balance sheet chart
And then there's DEQ. They have no debt but over $20M in accumulated deficit...
DEQ balance sheet chart
Either way, total assets are going down for both firms.
Galaxy needs to do something about that debt. It's the number one killer of businesses.
DEQ is on the path to being bought out. Assets reduced by over 50% in a 4 year period. I haven't seen much over the last year + to think anything has changed for them. Their library of offerings is weak at best, with EZ Bacc probably keeping them afloat. They had a chance a few years ago with their progressive system, but it died a quick death at most places that tried it.
Talk at another board is that NTGL has to be cleared out of their office by 03/31/16. Don't know how accurate that is, but it seems feasible since they have no employees and no income.
ZCore13
That wasn't you that short sold NTGL big today, was it ;-)Quote: Zcore13Quote: MathExtremistThey're making some headway on getting the debt ratio down, but >80% is still pretty high. Even before the PTG buyout they were high:
GLXZ balance sheet chart
And then there's DEQ. They have no debt but over $20M in accumulated deficit...
DEQ balance sheet chart
Either way, total assets are going down for both firms.
Talk at another board is that NTGL has to be cleared out of their office by 03/31/16. Don't know how accurate that is, but it seems feasible since they have no employees and no income.
ZCore13
Quote: TwoFeathersATLThat wasn't you that short sold NTGL big today, was it ;-)Quote: Zcore13Quote: MathExtremistThey're making some headway on getting the debt ratio down, but >80% is still pretty high. Even before the PTG buyout they were high:
GLXZ balance sheet chart
And then there's DEQ. They have no debt but over $20M in accumulated deficit...
DEQ balance sheet chart
Either way, total assets are going down for both firms.
Talk at another board is that NTGL has to be cleared out of their office by 03/31/16. Don't know how accurate that is, but it seems feasible since they have no employees and no income.
ZCore13
No. I would have sold everything I had long ago. Probably within a minute or two of being drunk enough to buy.
ZCore13
