Table Games Conference 2015

Quote: Ahigh

Our games are not slot machines.

The END.

Please, for the sake of your shareholders, hire an attorney to help you navigate this. I'd be concerned that you're making public statements about the regulatory categorization of your games despite not having sufficiently researched it.

You know what happens when a pharma company's products hit regulatory setbacks, right? Clovis Oncology stock lost 70% today after the FDA asked for more evidence that its cancer drug is effective.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2015/11/16/clovis-oncology-a-winning-or-losing-lottery-ticket/
That might make Clovis a good buy tomorrow, but that's a different topic. It seems that at least once a week, the biggest daily loser in the stock market is a drug company that failed a clinical trial or hit some other snag.

Quote: MathExtremist

Please, for the sake of your shareholders, hire an attorney to help you navigate this. I'd be concerned that you're making public statements about the regulatory categorization of your games despite not having sufficiently researched it.

You know what happens when a pharma company's products hit regulatory setbacks, right? Clovis Oncology stock lost 70% today after the FDA asked for more evidence that its cancer drug is effective.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/panosmourdoukoutas/2015/11/16/clovis-oncology-a-winning-or-losing-lottery-ticket/
That might make Clovis a good buy tomorrow, but that's a different topic. It seems that at least once a week, the biggest daily loser in the stock market is a drug company that failed a clinical trial or hit some other snag.

It's really unfortunate the whole problem with classification as a table game. I will take this offline and if anyone has any advice I would appreciate them to be sent in PM.

My understanding for the WHY there are table games classified as slots, it's because of markets like Delaware.

http://www.casinogamblingweb.com/main/casinos/delaware/delaware-park-casino.jsp

Not because they HAVE to be considered slot machines just because of computer RNG implementation, but because if they were to be classified as table games, they'd not be legal in states that disallow table gaming.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Turn and Burn craps can operate as a table game without having to use dice or cards to resolve the outcome. Cards may be used in California, and Dice may be used in Nevada, and a computer RNG may be used in another market.

We may likely have to do similar things for various markets if we want to sell the product as a table game.

But the CasinoKat, for example, is more ready to be sold as a slot machine. But many elements are still more similar to tables:

1) resolution time per bet -- 30 seconds average on CasinoKat and 1 minute average on Vegas 2047
2) Minimum bet -- our games require dollars not pennies, and a $3 minimum is about as low as you want to go (like table game)
3) social experience -- our games are designed for one person to be playing, but it's more of a social experience than a slot

My goal in bringing up these topics isn't even about our company. It's about the industry. I really believe that it's important that table game managers realize that skill-based gambling is coming and it's not just a bonus round on a slot machine as it's been presented in the past. It's different this time, guys.

As long as people who claim to be table games managers as Zcore has done on this forum tell me I have a slot machine, that's a symptom of some closed-mindedness that needs some attention, IMO. And it is just an opinion. Our industry needs change, and again, IMO.

Quote: Ahigh

...classification as a table game...Our industry needs change, and again, IMO.

My personal opinion is that there's a nice novel idea of incorporating skill with [random] prizes.

I am not trying to categorise your game as it combines different ideas, so isn't obvious where it falls.

The UK (I accept that this might not be your initial target market) has strict rules and includes categories of machines AWP (Amusement With Prizes) and SWP (Skill With Prizes). There is quite a bit of documentation in the site, but http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/pdf/is%20a%20prize%20machine%20a%20gaming%20machine%20-%20july%202010.pdf seems to be most useful. AWP are in essence Fruit Machines/Slots, but SWPs are typically for lower stakes.

The critical factor seems to be the levels of skill and chance required. As you are offering true skill (i.e. not rigging pressure controls etc. cf 4.2.), it does look hopeful.

I am guessing in different jurisdictions gaming, licensing and tax rules will be different: so it will be an educational and interesting path. As you say, like when hybrid cars came along, the industry needs to change to accommodate these.

links
http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Press/News-archive/2010/warningovermachinespresente.aspx
http://www.gamblingcommission.gov.uk/Gambling-sectors/Gaming-machines/About-gaming-machines/swps.aspx

Quote: charliepatrick

I am guessing in different jurisdictions gaming, licensing and tax rules will be different: so it will be an educational and interesting path. As you say, like when hybrid cars came along, the industry needs to change to accommodate these.

Thank you. One of two international calls to operators today, I don't mind disclosing, is with some folks in Chile. They have laws that are more compatible with our games too. We have spoken with many folks about the UK markets and Fruit Machines and Pinball are much more accepted there. But we are not experts in those local laws either. But we have been made well aware that our techniques are more accepted in these markets.

http://www.scj.gob.cl/en/juegos_autorizados/maquinas_de_azar.html

Frankly, the difficulties in the US come from states where religion gets some influence over gaming laws (like Texas) and their gambling laws that they are using originated for games like SkeeBall. So when you gamble in Texas, I guess using Zcores' logic, those slot machines are more like "skeeball" than gambling in Texas (because of how they are classified -- IE I don't agree with this logic). I grew up in Texas and skeeball and similar ticket dispensing games were about the only form of gambling allowed (IE: only children allowed to gamble interestingly) and it sucked major ass that Texas' gambling laws have been hobbled by people in Texas not intelligent enough to have more of a thought about gambling beyond "what would jesus do?" Now as a result, Texas has the worst illegal gambling problem in the country and is one of the major focuses from the AGEM that tries to handle these sorts of problems where unregulated games are being operated and problems (with denial about interest in gambling in the state of Texas) begin to show their ugly heads as the money gets bigger and those benefitting from the illegal gambling don't want to cooperate with the efforts to fix things.

But suffice it to say, the gambling laws in Texas don't make eight liners a skeeball machine any more than the laws where Zcore lives make our games slot machine. It's just a fallacy of logic to say that what a game *IS* is defined by local laws that classify it as such.

But ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY the industry needs to change. And the analogy about the car industry and the changes that it is going through are appropriate.

We all need to keep our thinking hats on, and just repeating what we have learned or what we have been told or reciting our own local laws as a guide to what is what is something that is less than helpful in my opinion as we are trying to push the industry forwards.

Quote: Ahigh

But ABSOLUTELY POSITIVELY the industry needs to change. And the analogy about the car industry and the changes that it is going through are appropriate.

We all need to keep our thinking hats on, and just repeating what we have learned or what we have been told or reciting our own local laws as a guide to what is what is something that is less than helpful in my opinion as we are trying to push the industry forwards.

Yes, but those changes don't just magically happen without input from industry, and the most impactful input is -- without putting too fine a point on it -- paid for. In other words, you need to hire a lobbyist and/or government affairs person to handle these things for you, someone who can engage on the regulatory changes you need to happen.

Don't just sit back and wait or the laws won't be drafted in the way you need, and then you might end up in the situation in which DraftKings finds themselves.

Quote:

In this kind of machines, skills applied by the player –whether natural or acquired in training– to influence the development of the game do not assure a favorable outcome or the obtaining of a prize

fwiw I think this typifies the challenge that you'll find, as current thinking may concentrate on the random nature of the second part of the game. This is because the first part can't give you an actual prize but is like the compensation that takes place in pub AWPs. Another problem is comparing self-service roulette terminals in casinos (based on a real wheel) which is a table game and similar ones in bookmakers (which are based on RNGs) and treated as Slots.

Quote: MathExtremist

Yes, but those changes don't just magically happen without input from industry, and the most impactful input is -- without putting too fine a point on it -- paid for. In other words, you need to hire a lobbyist and/or government affairs person to handle these things for you, someone who can engage on the regulatory changes you need to happen.

Ahigh, I don't know how well you know MathExtremist, or if you even know who he is, but you could not get better advice from this board in this matter than that given to you here by MathExtremist.

Quote: teliot

Ahigh, I don't know how well you know MathExtremist, or if you even know who he is, but you could not get better advice from this board in this matter than that given to you here by MathExtremist.

Oh, yes, I definitely know him, and he knows me. I trust him and his advice more than pretty much anybody in the business. When he does have a conflict of interest, he discloses that to me. Truly a legend in his industry that anyone would consider to be a valuable connection with loads of great information.

Just to help you out, I believe TITO licensing is about $1,500 per machine per location. Of course you'll have to deal with IGT on that, but just giving you a ballpark. I believe it gets charged again if you pull a machine from one location and put it into another, but I'm not 100% on that.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Just to help you out, I believe TITO licensing is about $1,500 per machine per location. Of course you'll have to deal with IGT on that, but just giving you a ballpark. I believe it gets charged again if you pull a machine from one location and put it into another, but I'm not 100% on that.

Awesome information and I thank you very much sir!

Quote: Zcore13

Just to help you out, I believe TITO licensing is about $1,500 per machine per location. Of course you'll have to deal with IGT on that, but just giving you a ballpark. I believe it gets charged again if you pull a machine from one location and put it into another, but I'm not 100% on that.

I think it varies from license to license, but $1500 is in the ballpark. In 2006, WMS inked a deal with IGT for $1200 domestically, $360 internationally:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-ilnd-1_13-cv-04788/pdf/USCOURTS-ilnd-1_13-cv-04788-0.pdf

Read this:
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=3352.0
and this:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/750004/000110465915030594/a15-10049_18k.htm
I've heard rumors that the terms of the Bally TITO license were $0 due to some cross-licensing, which would explain the current fight with SciGames (who now owns both WMS and Bally), but I don't know that for a fact and likely couldn't discuss it if I did.

IP licensing is a fun part of this business, though. Especially if you have what other people want to use, even more so if they're already using it.

Quote: MathExtremist

I think it varies from license to license, but $1500 is in the ballpark. In 2006, WMS inked a deal with IGT for $1200 domestically, $360 internationally:
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/USCOURTS-ilnd-1_13-cv-04788/pdf/USCOURTS-ilnd-1_13-cv-04788-0.pdf

Read this:
http://newlifegames.net/nlg/index.php?topic=3352.0
and this:
http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/750004/000110465915030594/a15-10049_18k.htm
I've heard rumors that the terms of the Bally TITO license were $0 due to some cross-licensing, which would explain the current fight with SciGames (who now owns both WMS and Bally), but I don't know that for a fact and likely couldn't discuss it if I did.

IP licensing is a fun part of this business, though. Especially if you have what other people want to use, even more so if they're already using it.

Yes, some of the big boys have special deals with each other bease of pa tent deals aND othe high leven agreements.. But those deals don't apply to more than a few select companies.

ZCore13

Anytime I try any of these new games, you immediately start to think what an idiot I am to play that crap. It feels that you never win. If casinos have difficulties making money now, with well proven games, wait till they get the new ones. Nobody will go to these damn casinos. The real chance of winning brings people in. It might be the myth, but players tend to believe in card counting, DI, streaks in baccarat. Without useful tools of how to beat the game nobody will even try to gamble.

Quote: Dicenor33

Without useful tools of how to beat the game nobody will even try to gamble.

Casinos make most of their money, domestically at least, from slot players.

Know any "useful tools of how to beat the game?"

*rhetorical question*

Of course, there are NO such "useful tools" for slots, but this doesn't stop the hordes from putting their heads on the chopping block.

Quote: Ahigh

Awesome information and I thank you very much sir!

Aaron, that was a proper response from a President of a public company. I hope you see many are here to help you, even if you don't always agree with the response.

Many on here want to see you succeed but bashing the industry and those who don't like your comebacks helps no one.

You have a much better chance of making this work with an open mind. I hope you make this work, then you will have proven your critics wrong.

Nano cat might be a good idea, it just requires more thinking to make it work. Player should walk in, make a bet and either stay or leave depending on the outcome. I would probably let RNG do all the work. Let say Pokemon runs by itself as a horse on a race truck and you bet on a possible score, you win three times and your bet pays 30 to 1

I was thinking to go to these conference, but then someone mentioned of a short bold guy charging at people, so I changed my mind.

No, please explain because it seems to clearly be troll speak.

Played the game? I thought it blew away anything else to date and offers folks something much better than vast majority of other table games. I will be investing big in this company!

Well, many of those critics are trolls from other sites who are being paid. It is sad and pathetic the lies they tell day in and out just to try and hurt a company for their own gain

Well now, and just who are you, RockFinley, and what is your connection to NTGL?

Quote: RockFinley

Well, many of those critics are trolls from other sites who are being paid. It is sad and pathetic the lies they tell day in and out just to try and hurt a company for their own gain

Appear suspicious much? Who pays people to not like a stock? CIA? Illuminati?


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

Appear suspicious much? Who pays people to not like a stock? CIA? Illuminati?

The penny stock world is a strange world. My guess is that he is an enthusiastic penny stock investor.



Penny stock investors and gamblers have a lot in common. Penny stocks are NOT for the meek.

I like the innovative concept and admire the passion displayed by those who lead the company. I am an investor as well. That OK with you?

Dude, very clear you are not educated on the OTC game and how manipulative MMs can be to make a buck.

Quote: RockFinley

Dude, very clear you are not educated on the OTC game and how manipulative MMs can be to make a buck.

Someone needs to put a stop to this guy or we are going to have the same mess they have going on over on the investorshub.com boards. He is going to blame all the stock price woes of NTGL and NTEK on crooked market makers and crooked short sellers.
Just watch.

Quote: Hittem

Texas Switch has a 135% Return To Player. Not a surprise it got the most votes knowing that.

That game will need to be altered significantly.

Is this accurate?

I asked the same question several days ago. No signs of Hittem since.

Interesting as I never said anything about NTEK? Agenda? Why fear my input? Seems suspicious

Rock Finley,

A separate thread was established to discuss NTEK/NTGL stock, products, and personnel.

Be sure and provide verifiable facts.

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/24081-ntek-ntgl/

Likewise

Quote: Ahigh

The penny stock world is a strange world. My guess is that he is an enthusiastic penny stock investor.

Penny stock investors and gamblers have a lot in common. Penny stocks are NOT for the meek.

Genius only listens to it's own voice. Sometimes that voice is flat out wrong.

What are you talking about? Your post makes no sense.

Quote: Ahigh

Back to the Zcore response, I didn't come away thinking you were any form of legit because you didn't say a word to me or anyone working for NanoTech but you still feel compelled to comment. Yeah, that was me, and I suspected you would have known that GIVEN THAT MY IMAGE IS ALL OVER THE DAMN INTERNET.

Pretending you don't know me is definitely part of your MO of hiding under that anonymous moniker as you profess that you are a "professional."

But just so that we are ALL clear on what you were stating, it is your claim that WHEN I SNAPPED MY FINGERS IN FRONT OF YOU, you had NO IDEA WHO I WAS at all.

Surely ye jest.

I do at least know what you look like now and who you are. But your suggestion that you didn't know it was me at that moment is EXTREMELY comical.

I -- DO -- NOT -- HIDE

I know it had been awhile, but I want to ask you this: On that day, do you recall seeing Zcore13 in a $6000 on a suit at the Zegna store at Crystals, or $ 19.99 suit typically found Men's Wearhouse four blocks off the Strip, or at any Salvation Army Family Thrift store in Arizona? I remembered donated a suit to a Salvation Army in Arizona, and I wonder if the suit Zcore13 worn that day once belong to me?

https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/24314-local-uth-is-broken-and-i-want-to-know-how-to-exploit/24/#