New Poker Variant - how should we market?

Hi Everyone,

This forum has been of great help to us in developing our game which is a poker variant called Third Eye Holdem. It is currently in the midst of the international patent process and we would like to get it out there on the market.

In the meantime, we were wondering if we should pursue the development of a mobile or web app. The final vision for us being that it would be a live table game to be played on casino floors.

I'd like to invite you to take a look at our websiteand familiarize yourself with Third Eye Hold'em. Sorry for the quick slide movement, our host has a 10sec interval limitation.

Any feedback that you may have will be greatly appreciated as it will help us refine our concept.

sorry forgot to include the paytable:

Ante Bet
If the player(s) selected the winning Hand Bet, First Hand, Second Hand, and Third Hand payout is 2:1. Winning by selecting the Blind Eye Hand payout is 4:1.

Hand Bet
If the player(s) selected the winning Hand Bet, the payout is 1:1.

Play Bet
If the player(s) select the winning Hand Bet, the Play Bet payout is according to the pay table.

Blind Eye Bonus Bet
The player(s) bet on the Blind Eye Bonus Bet win if their selected Hand Bet with a Three of a Kind or higher. The payout is according to the pay table. Blind Eye Bonus Bets pay out regardless if the hand wins, loses or uses the board.

Board Play
If the player(s) achieves a winning hand by using solely the five community cards on board, Ante Bet, Hand Bet and Play Bet are pushed back. The Blind Eye Bonus Bet is paid according to the pay table.

PAYTABLE
Blind Eye Bonus Paytable
Winning Hand Payout
Royal Flush 40 to 1
Straight Flush 30 to 1
Four of a Kind 25 to 1
Full House 11 to 1
Flush 6 to 1
Straight 4 to 1
Three of a Kind 3 to 1
Other Loss


Play Bet Paytable
Winning Hand Payout
Royal Flush 500 to 1
Straight Flush 35 to 1
Four-of-a-Kind 25 to 1
Full House 7 to 1
Flush 5 to 1
Straight 4 to 1
Other Push

I think having a game demo a good marketing tool, assuming you're properly financed to market a table game. Our own JB does outstanding work. He did demos for a couple forum members that I'm aware of any maybe more.

Thanks Wizard, we have been bootstrapping this idea therefore the marketing avenues are currently limited for us. I will certainly reach out to JB for advice. Which method do you think would be better for demo, mobile or web based app?

Quote: Techneek

Thanks Wizard, we have been bootstapping this idea therefore the marketing avenues are currently limited for us. I will certainly reach out to JB for advice. Which method do you think would be better for demo, mobile or web based app?

I'd go with web based. It should work on a mobile phone too within a browser, but confer with JB on that.

I didn't see any of the pay tables on the website.........did I miss them? Without the pay tables, you can't understand how the game works that well so I would add at least one example of an available pay table to the website if it isn't already on there.

Hi Paradigm, the following is one of the paytables available for Third Eye Holdem:

Ante Bet
If the player(s) selected the winning Hand Bet, First Hand, Second Hand, and Third Hand payout is 2:1. Winning by selecting the Blind Eye Hand payout is 4:1.

Hand Bet
If the player(s) selected the winning Hand Bet, the payout is 1:1.

Play Bet
If the player(s) select the winning Hand Bet, the Play Bet payout is according to the pay table.

Blind Eye Bonus Bet
The player(s) bet on the Blind Eye Bonus Bet win if their selected Hand Bet with a Three of a Kind or higher. The payout is according to the pay table. Blind Eye Bonus Bets pay out regardless if the hand wins, loses or uses the board.

Board Play
If the player(s) achieves a winning hand by using solely the five community cards on board, Ante Bet, Hand Bet and Play Bet are pushed back. The Blind Eye Bonus Bet is paid according to the pay table.

PAYTABLE
Blind Eye Bonus Paytable
Winning Hand Payout
Royal Flush 40 to 1
Straight Flush 30 to 1
Four of a Kind 25 to 1
Full House 11 to 1
Flush 6 to 1
Straight 4 to 1
Three of a Kind 3 to 1
Other Loss


Play Bet Paytable
Winning Hand Payout
Royal Flush 500 to 1
Straight Flush 35 to 1
Four-of-a-Kind 25 to 1
Full House 7 to 1
Flush 5 to 1
Straight 4 to 1
Other Push

Did you get an *exact* house edge, or did you just simulate a certain number of starting configurations? My guess is the latter, unless you rented a lot of cloud computing time.

The main problem is that in general the players at the table will all play the same way. This will generate substantial variance from the casino side. Players are not each dealt a unique hand to play - they are all playing the same hand.

Quote: Techneek

Hi Paradigm, the following is one of the paytables available for Third Eye Holdem

I am not sure I communicated effectively.......I saw the pay table you posted above my post. The question I have is whether this or any pay table is posted on the website? If not, you should put it there so the website can be used as an effective marketing tool.

Without the pay table prominently displayed, no one that goes to the website knows winning hands are paid in the game........that is pretty critical in evaluating the game and should be on the website.......I didn't see it when I visited.

Quote: Wizard

I'd go with web based. It should work on a mobile phone too within a browser, but confer with JB on that.

Thanks again wizard, is JB the handle I would contact?

Quote: teliot

Did you get an *exact* house edge, or did you just simulate a certain number of starting configurations? My guess is the latter, unless you rented a lot of cloud computing time.

The main problem is that in general the players at the table will all play the same way. This will generate substantial variance from the casino side. Players are not each dealt a unique hand to play - they are all playing the same hand.

Hi Teliot, we read many posts of yours that have helped us immensely. Thank you for that. We are still familiarizing ourself with the industry jargon therefore I do apologize if I answer your question wrong. The developer we outsourced used to be in the gaming industry. He extracted the numbers after running 100,000,000 hand simulations. Both randomly and better hand rankings. Better hand rankings such as pairs, suited, and connectors.

Quote: Paradigm

I am not sure I communicated effectively.......I saw the pay table you posted above my post. The question I have is whether this or any pay table is posted on the website? If not, you should put it there so the website can be used as an effective marketing tool.

Without the pay table prominently displayed, no one that goes to the website knows winning hands are paid in the game........that is pretty critical in evaluating the game and should be on the website.......I didn't see it when I visited.

sorry for that, yes you are very right. I will edit the page to include a sample of our payout.

Quote: Techneek

Hi Teliot, we read many posts of yours that have helped us immensely. Thank you for that. We are still familiarizing yourself with the industry jargon therefore I do apologize if I answer your question wrong. The developer we outsourced used to be in the gaming industry. He extracted the numbers after running 100,000,000 hand simulations. Both randomly and better hand rankings. Better hand rankings such as pairs, suited, and connectors.

Hi, okay it's a simulation. Let me say a few things.

For any starting configuration, there is an exact strategy. Each starting situation requires 488,703,600 steps to fully analyze to get the right strategy (and EV), so I doubt he did 100M of these. (Note. combin(45,3)*combin(42,2)*40 = 488,703,600).

I believe that what your mathematician means by "better hand rankings" is that he may have approximated a strategy, so I'd be careful with his results. Flush and straight outs will impact a lot of hand decisions. If your mathematician just played a "best hand" strategy using his hunches, you might find your game busted at the table.

Here is an example:

Hand 1: 9D, 8D
Hand 2: 5D, 3D,
Hand 3: 4C, 4D
Blind: JD

I'm guessing you play Hand 3.

Now compare that to:

Hand 1: 9D, 8D
Hand 2: 5C, 3C
Hand 3, 4C, 4H
Blind: JS

Now, 9D, 8D might be right.

These must be figured out exactly, including the precise amount to raise. To do any one of these would take my computer about 15 seconds. I really doubt your guy did 100M of these. I think he did 100M hands with *his* strategy, which is fully possible, but highly suspect. When I've done programs like this, I may run 100K hands if I have not much else to do with my computer for a week.

Quote: teliot

Hi, okay it's a simulation. Let me say a few things.

For any starting configuration, there is an exact strategy. Each starting situation requires 488,703,600 steps to fully analyze to get the right strategy (and EV), so I doubt he did 100M of these. (Note. combin(45,3)*combin(42,2)*40 = 488,703,600).

I believe that what your mathematician means by "better hand rankings" is that he may have approximated a strategy, so I'd be careful with his results. Flush and straight outs will impact a lot of hand decisions. If your mathematician just played a "best hand" strategy using his hunches, you migiht find your game busted at the table.

Here is an example:

Hand 1: 9D, 8D
Hand 2: 5D, 3D,
Hand 3: 4C, 4D
Blind: JD

I'm guessing you play Hand 3.

Now compare that to:

Hand 1: 9D, 8D
Hand 2: 5C, 3C
Hand 3, 4C, 4H
Blind: JS

Now, 9D, 8D might be right.

These must be figured out exactly, including the precise amount to raise. To do any one of these would take my computer about 15 seconds. I really doubt your guy did 100M of these. I think he did 100M hands with *his* strategy, which is fully possible, but highly suspect. When I've done programs like this, I may run 100K hands if I have not much else to do with my computer for a week.

Thank you for info noted above Teliot. I understand what you are trying to say. The math can get quite complex. Its one thing to devise a paytable that's fitting, its also another to calculate it. But there is a fun part tho, and the creativity that's comes along with it. In this case, the randomness of the outcome is really engaging when we tested it out with a group of friends. I will forward the notes to our developers and see what they say.