Criticism of new dice games
On the flip side, a new dice game that is more complicated than craps, probably will appeal to nobody.
I have also seen one-roll Craps in the Netherlands, the "shooter" kept the dice until a 7 but bets were only on the next roll - it has the ease of being understood.
A complex game might work provided the basics can be explained in a short sentence and quirks in under 30 seconds. One of the problems I've seen with new games is there's no accompanying leaflet so the responsibility lies with the dealer to give a quick overview, and they have little time to do this. Also to catch the walk-by player, the aim has to become apparent from watching a few hands/games.
Quote: vegas702I agree that a "simple" dice game would appeal to people who don't normally play dice. however, as far as it being successful in a casino, a 3-month or even a 6-month field trial isn't nearly enough time for a simple, new dice game to build a following from scratch, so it would still be dead in the water, in my opinion.
Building a following/player base in 3-6 mos is the challenge for every new game on the floor. That's the nature of the business......it's hard to design a great game concept.
The problem with dice vs cards is that there is only one known successful game on the floor (craps) & many would agree if that game was introduced today, it would fail. Most successful new casino games are based on variants of known games. When the only known game in the space would fail today as a new game, you are stuck trying to introduce a foreign new game concept when basing it on dice.
Introducing a foreign game concept whether it is based on cards or dice is very difficult, but in both cases, it better be simple to understand and fun to play. And if it is a dice game, it has to appeal to non-craps players, cause the current craps players aren't going to be the ones to play the new dice game.....it will be card based carnival game players that are too intimidated to play craps but want to play something else besides a new poker or BJ variant.
Sic Bo is huge throughout Asia. It has to be the 2nd dumbest game next to roulette.Quote: ParadigmThe problem with dice vs cards is that there is only one known successful game on the floor (craps) & many would agree if that game was introduced today, it would fail. Most successful new casino games are based on variants of known games. When the only known game in the space would fail today as a new game, you are stuck trying to introduce a foreign new game concept when basing it on dice.
Where does Bacarrat fall? I think this game is the simplest of all since there are so few bets, and no hit/stand player decisions. By virtue of the number of bets, it is even easier than the Big 6 wheel. Yet, it is easily the biggest table game in terms of world wide revenue.Quote: teliotSic Bo is huge throughout Asia. It has to be the 2nd dumbest game next to roulette.Quote: ParadigmThe problem with dice vs cards is that there is only one known successful game on the floor (craps) & many would agree if that game was introduced today, it would fail. Most successful new casino games are based on variants of known games. When the only known game in the space would fail today as a new game, you are stuck trying to introduce a foreign new game concept when basing it on dice.
Where new games fail is stacking the odds in favor of the house so much so that players don't "feel" like they have a chance. Why switch to a game that offers less of a chance to win, and less entertainment value? Unfotunately, the floor management side of running a casino works the opposite way. Why spend the money to try out a game that brings in the same or less money than what we already have, in hopes of building a following that will bring in the volume to turn a bigger profit?
I think new games that have been successfully introduced may cost more initially to play (3x$5 bets to "ante" and "play" the game, rather than 1x$5 line bet), but offer push opportunities and relatively huge progressive jackpots, so players "feel" like it was worth taking a longer shot. Craps has such a thin edge for the house in the base game, that it will not be beat by a new dice game. However, the real money generators for the house have been the sucker bets in the center (and now the "Fire" and "All, Tall, Small"). What makes it work is that these longshots are optional. You are not forced to pay for them by taking longer odds on the base game, but can enjoy the excitement of a chance at a big payout if you want to.
I liked "Three Dice Football". I am ahead lifetime on that game thanks to a lucky hit on a "turnover" bet. Whatever happened to "Scossa"?
Roulette has a sample space of size 37 or 38. Sic Bo has a sample space of size 216. Baccarat has a sample space of size 4998398275503360 (and it's not a dice game). Players are not just interested in the binary result of the hand, they are also entertained by the journey to get to the outcome. That said, baccarat is a brain-dead game: basic strategy is to play only Banker bets.Quote: AyecarumbaWhere does Baccarat fall?
Quote: teliot... Players are not just interested in the binary result of the hand, they are also entertained by the journey to get to the outcome.
Well said. Players are willing to pay for this trip, as long as they are entertained along the way. I think this is why "Penny" slot players are willing to put in $2 or $3 a pull. Nostalgic video, exciting music, chairs that move... It's like buying a ticket for an amusement park ride.
While Baccarat is not a dice game, neither is Roulette. Perhaps a better definition would be "non-card based table games". Being able to touch (and some believe, influence) the decision making implements is a powerful draw. It is one of the things that makes Craps special.
Thanks for the thought as I'd never thought of games that way, although as you say it's amazing how many brain-dead games such as Casino War and Baccarat do survive.Quote: teliot...Players are not just interested in the binary result of the hand, they are also entertained by the journey to get to the outcome...
In photography (I recently joined a club) it seems the winning pictures usually have a story to tell as well as being picture-perfect, and usually keep them simple rather than full of distracting details.
I guess the same recommendation applies when designing new games, making them interesting and giving the player something to do or think about, without making it so complicated few people understand.
Quote: 3DiceI'll tell you what the biggest problem is for new dice games........The problem is the labor cost associated with a dice table
This is just one of the reasons craps would not work if introduced today as a new game. I agree that future designs should not require a craps sized table and 4-5 dealer's to run. Roulette would have a tough time today based on the same parameters......lots of space required, expensive table and when it is busy, two dealers working the game.
Quote: 3DiceI created 3 Dice Football...it had plenty of action and win
I would guess this wasn't the case as casinos rarely remove games with "plenty of action and win", if the new game is winning more than the old game it replaced it will stay on the floor.
Quote: 3DiceCasinos claim they want innovation but it's a bunch of BS...they only care about maximizing profit
I have never heard a DTG say they are looking for innovation.......you are correct, all they care about is keeping their players entertained while the HE grinds away on the player's bankroll. That is the business.......there is no altruistic force in the marketplace that says "bring me something new & innovative"
Rather, the marketplace of DTG's is better summarized as "I need something new only when the stuff I already have isn't working anymore. Bring me a solution to a problem that I currently have". The solution may or may not be a new game". 6/5 Blackjack is a solution to the problem of a low win on blackjack, it isn't a new game, just a rule change that allows management to solve a problem.
If you solve a problem for a DTG and their player's accept the solution as a fun game to play.......that is the recipe for a great new table game.
Quote: teliotSic Bo is huge throughout Asia. It has to be the 2nd dumbest game next to roulette.
You are correct, I should have said domestically craps is the only successful dice game on the floor.
Quote: AyecarumbaWhere does Bacarrat fall?
Baccarat also has a journey and suspense to each hand.......first you see the player's initial hand, then the Banker's initial hand is revealed. In most hands a third card is drawn for at least one hand......and if circumstances warrant, including what the value of the Player's draw card that was just revealed, a third banker card is drawn.
Despite the fact that the game is "decision-less"......the game has suspense and a journey to the win or the loss. Mental Note: Design games with a journey from the start to the finish each hand and better yet, have the potential for big comebacks on a hand that looked initially like a loser, but can become a winner with the last action in the hand!
Quote: vegas702Consider: the people most likely to play a new dice game are existing dice players, NOT people who don't play dice at all. And because dice is synonymous with craps, that means craps players. the gambling gurus should ask themselves, is a craps player more likely to play a game that's at the same level as craps OR a game much simpler than craps? the answer's obvious to me.
Designing a game that only attempts to attract craps players is destined to fail. The younger generation of gamblers play craps at a lower percentage than their parents and that trend will continue. Designing a game that appeals to a smaller and smaller percentage of the table game players, is a recipe for failure.
Can you simplify the game betting options, put the three dice in a pai gow cup and play it on a BJ sized table? I don't recall all the specifics of the game, but that would solve your space and labor problem.....sit with that "simplify & smaller" concept for a while and see what can be kept from the "big" version of the game. Would it be enough to be fun for the players that enjoyed the craps table version?
Quote: 3DicePerhaps.....but it is hard to replicate the thrill people have in throwing those bones.
+1 The game capitalized on the "Us vs. Them" aspect of Pass vs. Don't Pass betting on a traditional Craps table. It was great fun with groups familiar with American Football scoring and terminology. I liked the concept, and wish you well in re-design 3Dice.
Quote: 3DicePerhaps.....but it is hard to replicate the thrill people have in throwing those bones.
Agreed.......even if you figured out a way to have enough security to let players shake the Pai Gow Cup and slide it back to the dealer for lid removal, it doesn't replace the mystique of aligning the dice and thinking you can influence the outcome by height, distance and force of throwing them down the table :-).
Quote: vegas702there's a happy medium that needs to be found somewhere along the line.
This is the place where our thinking diverges........I don't think a new dice game will ever attract craps players and to try is banging your head against a wall.
A new dice game concept that may work is a game that breaks down the intimidation that is the craps experience to a new player. It has to be simple to learn, it has to be played at a BJ sized table, two dice only give you a pool of 30 possible unique results & only 11 unique numeric value results so maybe it needs 3 Dice or multi-rolls or something (I tried a game combining two dice and a single card to increase the pool of potential outcomes), the game needs to have a journey to each hand/suspense to the outcome (at least in the US this is the case). There are a lot of bases to cover.
As a culture, the US doesn't play with dice other than to generate a number between 2 & 12 in a board game. Cards are used in all kinds of strategic & entertaining games (think poker, bridge, Gin Rummy, pinochle, etc.). With two dice, we generate an outcome, from a small pool of 30 or sometimes just 11 possible results (and within the pool of 11, seven of the outcomes are rolled 83% of the time), then we strategically try to use that generated number in game being played (think Sorry, Parcheesi, Backgammon, etc).
Now take away the base game of Sorry, Parcheesi or Backgammon and just create a game with the dice outcome, where the journey to the outcome takes less than 45 seconds......its very hard to create something that checks all those boxes and will still get players to come back again and again.
Quote: vegas702... there hasn't been a true craps variation (to my knowledge at least) that's been tried.
Die Rich
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLdtuSBYsA4
Rock N Roll Dice
Quote: 3DicePerhaps.....but it is hard to replicate the thrill people have in throwing those bones.
Is there any way that players would be able to throw the dice themselves, as in Craps, on a BJ size table that is secure from a game protection point of view? I reckon this would give any new dice game, simple or complicated, a better chance.
They determined that other uses of the physical space occupied by the game were more profitable. Popularity is not the bottom line for a game.Quote: vegas702Why people choose to ignore the popularity of a moderately complex football-themed game, I will never know
Quote: FroggerI think the best chance for a new dice game to succeed is in an electronic format. Labor cost is low. Instructions can be easily accessible on the touch screen. And companies that produce the machines are willing to lend them out for basically nothing on a 3 month or 6 month trial basis
The problem is that it is very expensive to try a new concept in electronic format. You are dealing with software, hardware, programming, compliance approvals. So very expensive proposition to a manufacturer on an unproven concept. As opposed to a table game where you just print a felt for $100 and see what happens.
Quote: vegas702Been thinking about this quote for a while. definitely can't argue with it cuz it makes total sense. What I don't understand is this.
Oh & before I continue I'm just thinking aloud. This isn't directed toward teliot or anyone else here. He just provided the food for thought. I'm just musing about games & the gaming community in general
What I don't understand is why the general consensus is that developing a dice game is an exercise in futility. Take Three Dice Football for example. That game was ever so close to making it. It was right on the threshold and just needed that nudge to push it over. But instead of the gambling gurus asking "What can be done to give 3 Dice that extra nudge?" OR "Is there any other dice game we can develop that has that little extra something to maybe push it over the edge?" instead they say:
"Fugetaboutit! Don't bother with any more dice games! The casino space is better off being used for something other than dice! Who cares if people showed interested in a dice game that was moderately complex and NOT simple? Who cares if people signaled that they wanted to play a football-themed dice game? Who cares if such a dice game was popular and had good action and was ever so close to succeeding? Don't waste your time!"
Imagine replacing "dice" with "card" after a failed card game: "Fugetaboutit! Don't bother with any more CARD games! The casino space is better off being used for something other than CARDS! Who cares if people showed interested in a CARD game that was moderately complex and NOT simple? Who cares if such a CARD game was popular and had good action and was ever so close to succeeding? Don't waste your time!"
Sounds ridiculous huh? it does to me anyway but what do I know
Three Dice has some great attributes. I don't know why the gaming community mocks attempts to extract all of the things that it did right & use it as a roadmap to try to get to the promised land
Re: replacing dice with card. This happens ALL the time. Your game (cards/dice/other), to stay on the floor, must do better than the least-performing game they had. Your game gets 3 months to gain a following if you're lucky - 6 weeks seems like it's the least amount of time, more than 3 months seems rare. From what I've seen, there is little marketing done by the casino; players have to notice and try a game pretty much by themselves.
And by "do better", it has to attract players, be easy to deal without a lot of dealer mistakes, retain players (attract them enough to come back and play again and again - some addictive quality), consistently make money for the House (but not too fast or hold too much), not be vulnerable to AP either individual or team collusion, and not have big jackpot pays that come too closely together no matter how rare they're supposed to be. Luck is definitely involved.
One example I saw; at Harrah's KC about 12-13 years ago, they brought in a game called PaiGowMania. The top hand was 5 Aces (Partially wild joker is the 5th Ace). They had to pay that hand twice in 12 days, and they pulled the game because of it. According to the Wizard, the probability of getting that hand is 0.00000732, or 1 in 136,612 hands, so JUUUUSt a little outside, as Bob Uecker used to say. Variance is a bitch.
People were standing behind the table, waiting to play the game, every time I saw it. Everyone was playing both sidebets. The HE (again according to the Wiz) of the base game was 4.475%, higher than most table games. None of that mattered; the game was 86'd. (It's still at The D in downtown Vegas; don't know of any other placements now.)
You sound angry.Quote: vegas702Three Dice has some great attributes. I don't know why the gaming community mocks attempts to extract all of the things that it did right & use it as a roadmap to try to get to the promised land
My advice, if you are a game inventor, is for you to invent 10 more games.
Quote: teliotMy advice, if you are a game inventor, is for you to invent 10 more games.
This is good advice......I hated hearing it back in 2011 and told Teliot I didn't have ten other ideas besides my original card/dice combination game.
But after my first game failed and was pulled on day 55 of the field trial, working on the revisions/next game was my only path if I wanted to stay in the business.
Remember this is a one in a thousand type of business......most games are going to fail. Your options after failure are:
1) Quit
2) Figure out why the game failed, if the game can be fixed do so & get a field trial for the new version (Go get'em Money$uit31)
3) Move on and develop another game
My business partner, Lucky, and I are currently working on the 6th game with which I have been involved......it is normally a long road to financial success in this business and for most game developers, it will never be realized.
Games does not mean "dice games." As far as the term "gurus," it is clear you don't mean this in its literal sense, which is at best a disrespectful overture. As I said above, your general tenor is one of anger. I suggest you keep calm and carry on.Quote: vegas702More frustrated than anything else for the various reasons I've explained throughout the thread. unfortunately 10 more dice games would probably get the same response from the gurus
