FIRST of two new dice games for comments

Quote: Buzzard

Anybody think he will not continue to pursue this nightmare ?

Loop to perfect; - keep on trucking. As many times as it takes for anyone to perfect a game.

You're either a Salmon swimming upstream like all holy hell to make it, or a snowball never to make it, somewhere else.

There is absolutely no other scenario.

Pick one - based on how hard - and smart - you work.

Buzzard to Dan : It was a RHETORICAL question. LOL

.....

Quote: Buzzard

Buzzard to Dan : It was a RHETORICAL question. LOL

But it got a rock-hard, concrete answer.

Like I said, pick your scenario. One dark, one black.

That's what i get for using a 9 letter word here. The one with 12 would have got me suspended.

Quote: Buzzard

Anybody think he will not continue to pursue this nightmare ?

A nightmare is just a bad dream ... my dream may look bad at this point ... but, YES I am gonna continue dreaming ...

I can't say any more right now ... I'm LOOPING ...LOL

KEEP on trucking to get there....

Looping, sociology term in in which an individual's protective response to one assault on the self is made the basis of another.

Quote: vegas702

So true, so true.
wish I had an answer.

but I do know that someone gave scossa and 3 dice football a shot, so anything's possible.

The issue is that there has to be an answer or noone will give it a shot...

Indeed those games did get a "shot" but how long did they stick around. The crazy thing to me is that a lot of games get shots, whether it be because they work in a casino or have ties or whatever the reason may be... (not knocking the games, just making a statement) The issue there is that a lot of really good games will never be given a shot due to no money to enter into competitions like raving or just not having any contacts in the industry whatsoever.

I wish anyone luck with no games as i would be a hypocrite not to do so, to a certain extent.

My reason for asking these questions rather harshly after asking him to divulge his ideas is actually, believe it or not, me trying to do him a favor. If he cant answer the aforementioned questions, i am trying to warn him about what he is getting himself into... It is a very expensive, very long and very sole crushing journey. Even at this point with two trials, both domestic and international, a licensing agreement and a vast industry acquaintance list, lets just say i still dont get treated like a human being on a very regular basis.

For example, this is a 100% true story, last week i had been following up with a director at a resort that will remain nameless, I had been referred to said director by his corporate director of table games. He allowed me to introduce Money$uit 31 to him and told me to follow up with him as he will "have his experienced staff, take a look". I attempted to contact him for about a month keeping his corporate director in the loop the whole way. I finally get him on the phone last week to have this wonderful conversation.

Me - Hi XXXX this is Brent Weiss Of money$uit 31, we had spoken a few weeks back when i had informed you that i had been referred by XXX and introduced my game to you.

DTG- Well since you clearly wont take no for an answer WTF do you want (yes he really said this)

Me- Im sorry XXX but you had never said no to me XXX, you had told me to follow up after introducing the game to you after we talked about me being referred to you by XXX (he then cut me off)

DTG- Listen here pal, this is a managed property, there is no such thing in this business as a referral so WTF are you talking about, you are clearly full of sh*t. Honestly, I have not looked at your game and NEVER will.

Me- I just paused and didnt really know what to say.

DTG- enough bullsh*t he says sell me the game, Why the F*** would i want this Shi*y game in my casino? Tell me that and ill pretend your not an a**hole.

Me- I proceeded to pitch him the game (surprisingly one of my best virbally thus far) and he was the one who was speechless, he had nothing bad to say and proceeded to ask me for more information. (truth be told im sure he still wont look but i got some satisfaction of telling him to go *uck off with a spot on pitch even after his douchbag response).

In the end he said he will look at the website, which i dont necessarily believe but it was still a win in my eyes after making him act human again. (at least for a minute)

In this business a thing once called professional courtesy has almost completely disappeared, partially because of people coming up with games having no idea what they are talking about and just putting it on a plate and handing it to executives expecting a great response.

Although this is not a majority of experiences or the norm for directors in the business, nor is it what i am intending to imply. But it truly sucks being treated this way and to be honest if I was not a longtime athlete and current law student im not really sure how i would have handled being treated like the way i had in the above mentioned example.

So again im actually trying to do NTC a favor by asking these questions now as i truly dont really care what his response is, it is just me trying to prepare him with what to expect in real life outside of this forum...

Quote: Paigowdan

No casino house or gambling hall would ever consider doing this.

That's just another way of saying what I said:

Quote: DJTeddyBear

This will never see the light if day.

Quote: mrsuit31

The issue is that there has to be an answer or noone will give it a shot...

Indeed those games did get a "shot" but how long did they stick around. The crazy thing to me is that a lot of games get shots, whether it be because they work in a casino or have ties or whatever the reason may be... (not knocking the games, just making a statement) The issue there is that a lot of really good games will never be given a shot due to no money to enter into competitions like raving or just not having any contacts in the industry whatsoever.

I wish anyone luck with no games as i would be a hypocrite not to do so, to a certain extent.

My reason for asking these questions rather harshly after asking him to divulge his ideas is actually, believe it or not, me trying to do him a favor. If he cant answer the aforementioned questions, i am trying to warn him about what he is getting himself into... It is a very expensive, very long and very sole crushing journey. Even at this point with two trials, both domestic and international, a licensing agreement and a vast industry acquaintance list, lets just say i still dont get treated like a human being on a very regular basis.

For example, this is a 100% true story, last week i had been following up with a director at a resort that will remain nameless, I had been referred to said director by his corporate director of table games. He allowed me to introduce Money$uit 31 to him and told me to follow up with him as he will "have his experienced staff, take a look". I attempted to contact him for about a month keeping his corporate director in the loop the whole way. I finally get him on the phone last week to have this wonderful conversation.

Me - Hi XXXX this is Brent Weiss Of money$uit 31, we had spoken a few weeks back when i had informed you that i had been referred by XXX and introduced my game to you.

DTG- Well since you clearly wont take no for an answer WTF do you want (yes he really said this)

Me- Im sorry XXX but you had never said no to me XXX, you had told me to follow up after introducing the game to you after we talked about me being referred to you by XXX (he then cut me off)

DTG- Listen here pal, this is a managed property, there is no such thing in this business as a referral so WTF are you talking about, you are clearly full of sh*t. Honestly, I have not looked at your game and NEVER will.

Me- I just paused and didnt really know what to say.

DTG- enough bullsh*t he says sell me the game, Why the F*** would i want this Shi*y game in my casino? Tell me that and ill pretend your not an a**hole.

Me- I proceeded to pitch him the game (surprisingly one of my best virbally thus far) and he was the one who was speechless, he had nothing bad to say and proceeded to ask me for more information. (truth be told im sure he still wont look but i got some satisfaction of telling him to go *uck off with a spot on pitch even after his douchbag response).

In the end he said he will look at the website, which i dont necessarily believe but it was still a win in my eyes after making him act human again. (at least for a minute)

In this business a thing once called professional courtesy has almost completely disappeared, partially because of people coming up with games having no idea what they are talking about and just putting it on a plate and handing it to executives expecting a great response.

Although this is not a majority of experiences or the norm for directors in the business, nor is it what i am intending to imply. But it truly sucks being treated this way and to be honest if I was not a longtime athlete and current law student im not really sure how i would have handled being treated like the way i had in the above mentioned example.

So again im actually trying to do NTC a favor by asking these questions now as i truly dont really care what his response is, it is just me trying to prepare him with what to expect in real life outside of this forum...

This is unspeakable, this is simply despicable. A lot of men in this business have no business breathing, except for the grace of G-d. I am aware this this is a rude business.

Brent, Have U ever hanged up any unsolicited calls? Now you're merely on the other side.

Sales is fundamentally the toughest job - not game design. I image your day job is respectful and white color. If this DTG has operated his biz for so many years without your game, why should he be bothered by you? May I suggest you just move on to the next DTG.

That wasn't an unsolicited call. Not by a long stretch.

Brent has been working his ass off, he has table games installed, and has an inked deal with a VERY major casino operator. He's also a 3rd year graduate law student about a year away from being admitted to the Bar.

Brent has also given very fine consideration to all he has dealt with in this industry.

I would take him seriously, - or at least with some great consideration. He's going to be around a while, and as an attorney.

Schmucks abound in this gaming industry, what call I tell you.

May I suggest his opening statements be:

Me - Hi XXXX this is Brent Weiss Of money$uit 31. I have been working my ass off, I have table games installed, and has an inked deal with a VERY major casino operator. I am also a 3rd year graduate law student about a year away from being admitted to the Bar. Dan would take me seriously.

May be the subsequent dialog would be different.

Quote: UCivan

May I suggest his opening statements be:

Me - Hi XXXX this is Brent Weiss Of money$uit 31. I have been working my ass off, I have table games installed, and has an inked deal with a VERY major casino operator. I am also a 3rd year graduate law student about a year away from being admitted to the Bar. Dan would take me seriously.

May be the subsequent dialog would be different.

I was referred to him by his boss at their world corporate headquaters, who i have been dealing with for a while now. What approach would you have taken? This was not our first conversation...

Also, I have had distribution agreements with public international companies, is that to be taken seriously? I deal directly with Shfl who supplies progressives for my games, is this to be taken seriously? You tell me...

But you apparently know the business and my dealing with this person and corporate very well so why dont you take over from here.

As for your nice comments about Dan and myself, you may want to reconsider this the next time you private message someone for help along the way.

First met Brent May 2nd,2012 Focus Group 1.

UCivan May I suggest you go shit in your hat ? ( Moderator : 7 days or 30 Either works for me )

This from May 6 2012

" I first off have to say that it was a pleasure meeting all those who i had met for the first time at the dinner/group. I appreciated all of the kind words from all(especially you buzz, you didnt have to go out of your way to tell me what you did and i wont forget it either...)"

Brent is too much of a gentleman to toot his own horn.

Quote: Buzzard

First met Brent May 2nd,2012 Focus Group 1.

UCivan May I suggest you go shit in your hat ? ( Moderator : 7 days or 30 Either works for me )

This from May 6 2012

" I first off have to say that it was a pleasure meeting all those who i had met for the first time at the dinner/group. I appreciated all of the kind words from all(especially you buzz, you didnt have to go out of your way to tell me what you did and i wont forget it either...)"

Brent is too much of a gentleman to toot his own horn.

Thank you for this buzz

The pleasure was all mine. REALLY

Quote: Buzzard

First met Brent May 2nd,2012 Focus Group 1.

UCivan May I suggest you go shit in your hat ? ( Moderator : 7 days or 30 Either works for me )

This from May 6 2012

" I first off have to say that it was a pleasure meeting all those who i had met for the first time at the dinner/group. I appreciated all of the kind words from all(especially you buzz, you didnt have to go out of your way to tell me what you did and i wont forget it either...)"

Brent is too much of a gentleman to toot his own horn.

Well, nuts, Buzz. Yeah, I have to make it 7. See you then.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Well, nuts, Buzz. Yeah, I have to make it 7. See you then.

I think there should be a 'entertainment clause' to overturn a suspension on here. If enough people vote that the post, for which one was suspended for, was entertaining, that the suspension would be overturned.. Also, Buzz just made a suggestion, he didn't tell him to actually go 'dun' in his hat... He merely made a suggestion...

Quote: allinriverking

I think there should be a 'entertainment clause' to overturn a suspension on here. If enough people vote that the post, for which one was suspended for, was entertaining, that the suspension would be overturned.. Also, Buzz just made a suggestion, he didn't tell him to actually go 'dun' in his hat... He merely made a suggestion...

I still don't see how that's an insult. At worst, it's really bad advice.

Quote: mrsuit31

DTG- Well since you clearly wont take no for an answer WTF do you want (yes he really said this)..

Of course he said it, he's a member of the
DarkSide. You can pretend, because you
have a game, that these people are all
sweetness and light, and be in denial as
to who they really are. They aren't on your
side, they're totally on they're side. Why
do you think AP's love what they do and
have no regrets. Casinos are evil incarnate.

Duh................

When he said it was a managed property, the meaning is?

Quote: onenickelmiracle

When he said it was a managed property, the meaning is?

He was just saying that to make me feel worse for "making up my referral from his boss" it meant nothing. All properties are "managed"...

Hence all properties having an executive staff in place (director of table games, vp of casino opps etc...)

It meant absolutely nothing. He thought I was just making it up. I clearly was not, which he realized after the fact...

Not many people, let alone an independent like myself, ever get face to face with the people who referred me to him...

Quote: UCivan

May I suggest his opening statements be:

Me - Hi XXXX this is Brent Weiss Of money$uit 31. I have been working my ass off, I have table games installed, and has an inked deal with a VERY major casino operator. I am also a 3rd year graduate law student about a year away from being admitted to the Bar. Dan would take me seriously.

May be the subsequent dialog would be different.

I wouldn't say that. Brent is courteous and experienced and he knows what to say; consider here that Tables Games review are a part of the Table Games Director's job description, - along with a professional bearing towards all in the industry. Especially if it's an internal referral.

It's amazing here, that many gamblers here criticize and scrutinize the bearing and attitude of EVERY casino worker - from dealers on up - over the slightest perceived offense or non-offense to an extreme degree. Now, we have an instance of a class-A jerk (and there are a few in the business) with one of our board members, and he gets a pass from you guys. If he were a gambler who walked in off the streets and took a shot at the place, you guys would call the cops in his defense, claiming "dark side/white hat" Bullspit.

As for us, we thank people for considering us when submitting games, and we review them and we consider them seriously and we discuss them honestly. Every time. What's there to get?

Quote: NewToCraps

YES I am gonna continue dreaming ...

have you actually played your SCC game?

I did last night, and other games too, with a few (4) friends and not one liked the game.
I think my friends are likable... yes
They all said "Too confusing. Why the push when the point wins before one 7 out?"
They like to play games too but most do not even understand the concept of a house edge.

I actually liked it just because I do love different dice games.
My first rule change was to only allow one Mulligan 7 out per shooter instead of the possible unlimited number of them.
That almost doubled the average # of rolls per shooter (over regular Craps) and gave others a chance at rolling the dice and winning.

Now to see what can be done, if anything, about increasing the ev per roll for the casino
Sally

this is the bottom line

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: Buzzard

Anybody think he will continue to pusue this nightmare ?

Loop to perfect; - keep on trucking. As many times as it takes for anyone to perfect a game.

You're either a Salmon swimming upstream like all holy hell to make it, or a snowball never to make it, somewhere else.

There is absolutely no other scenario.

Pick one - based on how hard - and smart - you work.

Keep on swimming, keep on swimming ...

To Buzz:
I am continuing my dream.

Based on what I have heard here, "the push during the 2nd Chance Phase is a problem" for most.
IF the following parameters were met, what are the thoughts of my "nightmare" under this conditions ?

1) during phase one, the Come-out Phase, a Pass Bet would payout 1:1 for the typical winning numbers (just like eveyone is used to in the original game).

2) during phase two(a), the 2nd Chance Phase, an Odds Bet cannot be initiated, but a Pass Bet would payout 9:5 (matching the best Place bet opportunity). The humdinger idea of the game still remaining ... in that BIG red is unresolved instead of a loss.

3) during phase two(b), the Point Phase, an Odds Bet can be initiated, a Pass Bet would pay 1:1 and an Odds Bet would pay true odds (again, just like in the original game).

4) here is the tricky part, the HE would be in the neighborhood of 1.5% for Pass bet only and 0.6% for Pass Bet with full Odds taken (close, but slightly higher than Casino Craps).

Back to looping ...

Quote: NewToCraps

Based on what I have heard here, "the push during the 2nd Chance Phase is a problem" for most.

if most is the players playing the game and the casino that offers the game, yes.

Now say you own a Billion$ casino and your players are asking for a Craps game.
do you install regular Craps over SCC or SCC over regular craps and
why choose one over the other?

Sally
I am full of questions today.
Must be the weight I gained on my last vacation.
I really am fat

I know what the CEO of Sally's Casino would do if that helps you

Quote: NewToCraps - from page 2

The idea started when I was one of two players at a table,

I rolled a point then seven-out,
My friend rolled a point then seven-out,
I rolled a point then a seven-out,
he rolled a point, one crap number and a seven-out,
I rolled a point and bet heavy on all place numbers because it couldn't happen again ,
then I rolled a seven-out....

Maybe you overlooked the real problem as you perceive it. You simply don't like short rolls.


I came up with a solution. Believe it or not, it came to me while randomly thinking about baseball old timer's games. The batters must hit the ball. They can't strike out or walk.

Simple solution to your craps issue: If a player rolls a seven out prior to making a pass, they don't lose the dice. Everything else remains the same. That seven causes the dealers to clean the table, including Fire Bets. The only difference is the player gets another chance if they want it.

No new math to learn. No complicated rules to learn.

Yeah, I'm not a fan of your idea. One reason is, it seems too complicated. But the big reason is, there is no additional / increased house edge, so why would a casino want to pay for it? I realize that my simple second chance rule change doesn't provide any additional house edge either. But it's something that you can suggest to a DTG and get a real opinion from the person that would be making a decision to install it or not.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

Simple solution to your craps issue: If a player rolls a seven out prior to making a pass, they don't lose the dice. Everything else remains the same. That seven causes the dealers to clean the table, including Fire Bets. The only difference is the player gets another chance if they want it.

Oh, now you mention it ... you could have save me a ton of hours trying to get the numbers to work, all the formatting of my presentation page, etc.

Actually I have enjoyed all those things ... and we learn from experiences, so I guess it is good that your simple solution didn't get mentioned sooner.

But, even though a simple solution to longer rolls has been thrown out, I'm gonna still keep looping ...

.....

Quote: vegas702

wow. just wow

Thank you for sharing that story though. This is the kind of stuff that guys like me & Newtocraps & other newbie inventors need to be aware of.

Im still blown away that the DTG had the audacity to act like that. Being rude is bad enough but dropping f-bombs too? smh

It's rough out there sometimes... But that's exactly why I told the story.

I still have trouble believing that actually happened... I have a bunch of stories from this journy thus far. Perhaps ill post the whole thing at somepoint, it's almost hard to believe it isn't fiction. Let's just hope it has a happy ending. But truth be told regardless of the outcome, it's a journy I will never forget.

Quote: mrsuit31

It's rough out there sometimes... But that's exactly why I told the story.

I still have trouble believing that actually happened... I have a bunch of stories from this journy thus far. Perhaps ill post the whole thing at somepoint, it's almost hard to believe it isn't fiction. Let's just hope it has a happy ending. But truth be told regardless of the outcome, it's a journy I will never forget.

You should star a blog talking about all your experiences (like you have extra time). I know as someone new to the process those true life stories help shed some light on parts of the whole process.

Quote: NewToCraps

Oh, now you mention it ... you could have save me a ton of hours trying to get the numbers to work, all the formatting of my presentation page, etc.

Actually I have enjoyed all those things ... and we learn from experiences, so I guess it is good that your simple solution didn't get mentioned sooner.

But, even though a simple solution to longer rolls has been thrown out, I'm gonna still keep looping ...

I've come up with another idea that achieves your goal, adds a high edge, is very simple, and CAN be sold.


Add a "Second Chance" bet. Or, "Short Roll Insurance." Unlike BlackJack, I think 'Insurance' is the correct term.

It's a bet only the shooter can make. It's made at the same time as the line bet, and for the same price as the line bet.

It pushes for all come-out rolls.

Once the point is established, if the shooter gets a seven out, the insurance bet loses, but the shooter gets his second turn. If the shooter makes his point, the insurance bet pushes (VERY high edge) or is paid at 1:2 (still a high edge). The bet is returned and no longer offered to that shooter (until the dice go around the table). Any roll other then the point or a seven and the bet remains locked up and in play. A shooter can roll a hundred numbers and then finally seven out or pass, and then the bet is resolved, with the second chance enabled if it was a seven.

I haven't worked the numbers to see just how high of an edge either option is, but certainly high enough that if the shooter wants to pay for a second chance, he can, and the price is right.

This can be implemented without any change to the layout. Simply place the insurance bet next to the line bet. Then the dealer takes it before the first roll (i.e. at the same time as taking FireBets) and locks it up under a flipped over clear dice bowl marked "Second Chance" or "Insurance".

Quote: NewToCraps

You should star a blog talking about all your experiences (like you have extra time). I know as someone new to the process those true life stories help shed some light on parts of the whole process.

We will see how long it takes to get it all down on paper. Is a very VERY long story. But we'll see.

Looped back and played with a possible idea that might help the nightmare get back to a dream ....