Getting a game or side bet into Macau
New to the table game invention business, and we're looking to introduce a baccarat side bet. Obviously a great place to start with this would be Macau.
However, after some research, it seems that it's not possible to charge any royalties for games in Macau.
Anyone know anything about this?
Thanks in advance for any information regarding this.
In Macau they have a cap on how many table games per year may be placed inside a casino. This cap is already eaten up, that is why your minimum bets in Macau is so high.....
Find another jurisdiction is my suggestion.
Macau is a no fly zone for new games
You will not get a game or side bet into Macau. Try Singapore.Quote: ShineyShineNew to the table game invention business, and we're looking to introduce a baccarat side bet. Obviously a great place to start with this would be Macau.
It's a baccarat side bet though, not a new game.
Quote: teliotYou will not get a game or side bet into Macau. Try Singapore.
Ok thanks for the heads up. Could you add any any specifics for why not Macau?
The big casinos aren't interested, the little casinos don't offer side bets and the government doesn't want any new games. I suggest you take a trip there and look around.Quote: ShineyShineOk thanks for the heads up. Could you add any any specifics for why not Macau?
Quote: teliotThe big casinos aren't interested, the little casinos don't offer side bets and the government doesn't want any new games. I suggest you take a trip there and look around.
Wish that was in the budget!
Seems strange that the big casinos aren't interested in side bets. Wonder why that is? They're happy with what they have? Player's not interested in them?
Quote: ShineyShineWish that was in the budget!
Seems strange that the big casinos aren't interested in side bets. Wonder why that is? They're happy with what they have? Player's not interested in them?
Asian gamblers don't care for side bets apart from tie and pairs on baccarat. That is because it is something they insticntively know.
We have tried side bets on our blackjack games (Kkorea) and they have tanked. We are only now trying pairs wagering on our mass market segment. I have no idea how that will go.
As teliot suggests, rather look further afield such as Singapore, Philippines or what about Europe?
The *minimum* bets on most tables are well over $100. Most players are wagering over $1000 -- many over $10000. Anything that slows down the game loses money. Not to mention the game protection fiasco that accompanies most of these bets.Quote: ShineyShineWish that was in the budget!
Seems strange that the big casinos aren't interested in side bets. Wonder why that is? They're happy with what they have? Player's not interested in them?
Quote: TomspurAsian gamblers don't care for side bets apart from tie and pairs on baccarat. That is because it is something they insticntively know.
We have tried side bets on our blackjack games (Kkorea) and they have tanked. We are only now trying pairs wagering on our mass market segment. I have no idea how that will go.
As teliot suggests, rather look further afield such as Singapore, Philippines or what about Europe?
Yeah will defintely look at Singapore... Was intending the U.K anyway, just thought Macau would give us real good impetus if it caught on there.
Thanks for the advice.
Quote: teliotThe *minimum* bets on most tables are well over $100. Most players are wagering over $1000 -- many over $10000. Anything that slows down the game loses money. Not to mention the game protection fiasco that accompanies most of these bets.
So if they don't slow the game down too much, and have no game protection issues, could there be a chance? Or am i clutching at straws here lol?
Thanks for the advice anyway.
Your game has game protection issues. Every game has issues. If a player makes a $100 wager on your side bet at a table with a guy who is wagering $100,000, then it is slowing down the game too much. I think your metaphor is optimistic.Quote: ShineyShineSo if they don't slow the game down too much, and have no game protection issues, could there be a chance? Or am i clutching at straws here lol?
Thanks for the advice anyway.
Quote: teliotYour game has game protection issues. Every game has issues. If a player makes a $100 wager on your side bet at a table with a guy who is wagering $100,000, then it is slowing down the game too much. I think your metaphor is optimistic.
Ok fair enough. So they've been tried and failed then?
The "Pairs" bet is the only side bet most of the big casinos offer. That one is pretty much the only game in town. On EZ Bac, they have the Dragon 7. But they cut off 2 decks because of the countability of the Dragon. The game does not get big action and there are just a few tables here and there. I think you may find some casinos have SHFL's Dragon Bonus bet (but I don't quite recall), but it's certainly not on many tables.Quote: ShineyShineOk fair enough. So they've been tried and failed then?
If you don't have the money to travel, you're in the wrong business.
Quote: teliotThe "Pairs" bet is the only side bet most of the big casinos offer. That one is pretty much the only game in town. On EZ Bac, they have the Dragon 7. But they cut off 2 decks because of the countability of the Dragon. The game does not get big action and there are just a few tables here and there. I think you may find some casinos have SHFL's Dragon Bonus bet (but I don't quite recall), but it's certainly not on many tables.
If you don't have the money to travel, you're in the wrong business.
Do you know if the owners of the pairs bet and the Dragon 7 receive any royalties for these then?
Thanks
Quote: ShineyShineDo you know if the owners of the pairs bet and the Dragon 7 receive any royalties for these then?
Thanks
Apologies if that seems like a silly question, just trying to tie it in with the info we've found in our research i.e Royalties can't be charged on a game or side bet in Macau once the government have approved it.
Pairs is public domain. Dragon 7 / EZ Bac is now public domain as well, not sure what the arrangements are with DEQ.Quote: ShineyShineDo you know if the owners of the pairs bet and the Dragon 7 receive any royalties for these then?
Thanks
Quote: teliotPairs is public domain. Dragon 7 / EZ Bac is now public domain as well, not sure what the arrangements are with DEQ.
Ok that makes sense.
Quote: beachbumbabsPretty interesting info to me as well, guys, especially Eliot. Thanks!
Intersting, and also strange that one of the biggest gaming markets in the world is a no go... Oh well, you guys did warn it wouldn't be easy...
Quote: ShineyShineIntersting, and also strange that one of the biggest gaming markets in the world is a no go... Oh well, you guys did warn it wouldn't be easy...
There is another thing to remember. There is no need for new games or new side bets in Macau. They are making more money than any other gaming jurisdiction despite only (comparatively speaking) a small game selection.
Asian people have a yearning to gamble and for the most part they stick to a select few games. They like Baccarat, Blackjack, Sic Bo and Roulette, probably in that order. Some like CSP and some like 3CP but they don't deviate from what they know.
As long as they can have a bet, they don't care about side bets or unique games like we do in the US.
Quote: beachbumbabsPretty interesting info to me as well, guys, especially Eliot. Thanks!
Yes. I was thinking of looking at it from the Oriental perspective of simplicity and perfection.
They have a game approved.... and its "zap" don't fiddle with it or levy royalties on it.
They have an existing high speed, high level market... and its 'zap" don't slow things down or provide any opportunities for mistakes.
I think you would need a declining market or a market wherein there were several slightly moribund new casinos with lots of players in a mix who have woefully different preferences.
This is where "bells and whistles" might stand out. A side bet that might be worth the time and trouble to learn it and teach it.
I noted that a casino just opened in St. Louis, MO which had both a Casino Host Team and an Asian Casino Host Team. This might be a market to crack. Or perhaps more realistically you would want a Central American market where there are several smaller casinos and some of them might be interested in differentiating their baccarat game in order to draw in more players. I think that is what you would be looking at... a slower, more-fragmented market of the curious, but not compulsive gamblers.
Quote: teliotIf you don't have the money to travel, you're in the wrong business.
I would add that if you don't have money to travel to & get licensed in a jurisdiction, you looking at the wrong jurisdiction.
I don;t think it's not easy. It's impossible. Here are other factors: (1) there is a totally different culture towards gaming and gambling, Asian players do not trust "new" games. Why? Baccarat, Pai Gow, Sic Bo are products of thousands of years of culture, not individuals. Any new games have hidden house advantages. (2) Players are in casinos to gamble, not to play games. (3) if the market is so good, why change it? And there are more reasons. The conclusion is the same: IMPOSSIBLE. If you're not convinced, please proceed and give us a report later. Thanks.Quote: ShineyShineIntersting, and also strange that one of the biggest gaming markets in the world is a no go... Oh well, you guys did warn it wouldn't be easy...
You may want to check your history on baccarat.Quote: UCivanI don;t think it's not easy. It's impossible. Here are other factors: (1) there is a totally different culture towards gaming and gambling, Asian players do not trust "new" games. Why? Baccarat, Pai Gow, Sic Bo are products of thousands of years of culture, not individuals. Any new games have hidden house advantages. (2) Players are in casinos to gamble, not to play games. (3) if the market is so good, why change it? And there are more reasons. The conclusion is the same: IMPOSSIBLE. If you're not convinced, please proceed and give us a report later. Thanks.
I'm not sure i accept the view that asian gamblers are never going to try any new games or side bets, but thats just my opinion. In my experience, asian gamblers are willing to try new games or variants, but maybe thats not the case in Macau. Tomspur, you seem to have some knowledge and experience of the region. If it's the case that asian gamblers are generally unwilling to try new games or side bets, would that be true of Singapore also, or is the gambling culture there different?
I think teliot's point about it slowing the game down is the biggest reason as to why the casino operators wouldn't take it, and the biggest hurdle to overcome. Especially with such high action.
And whilst it's an interesting discussion, a lot of it is down to opinion. And don't get me wrong, i appreciate all the opinions and information offered, but i was originally looking for specific facts regarding Macau gaming regulations for new games. The information we have is that royalties can't be charged, and were looking to verify that from other sources. Unfortunately, the Macau Gaming Board website is mostly in Chinese or Portugeuse.
Without a distribution deal, you aren't going to sell a game into Macau without being present. What exactly is your Macau marketing game plan if you don't have a distribution deal and aren't going to travel there yourself? The royalty question is a "who cares" item if you aren't traveling there.
Galaxy Gaming on its last earnings conference call said "they weren't ready to enter the Macau market at this time".....they are #2 in the industry!
If the #2 player in the industry with a full time sales team isn't going there presently......what does that tell you as an independent developer?
Even with a travel budget you'll be there part time. And you don't speak the language. Game Over.....you are wasting time thinking about this as an option for your game or posting further questions about the market.
Rather, look around at the jurisdictions closest to you that offer baccarat. That is where you should be focused. Trust me, you will have a hard enough time trying to enter that market and get your game on a floor there to keep you busy for a long time.
Quote: ParadigmSS, if it isn't in the budget to travel to Macau multiple times in order to market the side bet, I am confused as to why it matters whether you can collect royalties in Macau?
Without a distribution deal, you aren't going to sell a game into Macau without being present. What exactly is your Macau marketing game plan if you don't have a distribution deal and aren't going to travel there yourself? The royalty question is a "who cares" item if you aren't traveling there.
Galaxy Gaming on its last earnings conference call said "they weren't ready to enter the Macau market at this time".....they are #2 in the industry!
If the #2 player in the industry with a full time sales team isn't going there presently......what does that tell you as an independent developer?
Even with a travel budget you'll be there part time. And you don't speak the language. Game Over.....you are wasting time thinking about this as an option for your game or posting further questions about the market.
Rather, look around at the jurisdictions closest to you that offer baccarat. That is where you should be focused. Trust me, you will have a hard enough time trying to enter that market and get your game on a floor there to keep you busy for a long time.
Hi Paradigm
Ok, first of all, i think it's more pertinent to find out if it's possible to introduce a game or side bet to Macau. If it's 100% not possible, then the funds for travel question becomes moot, and we move on. If it is possible, then there may be funds in place in the future for this. I'm fairly new here, so i wouldn't expect anyone to be interested in my marketing strategy or financial budget, or to believe them, so i wouldn't bore everyone by posting them.
Information like that regarding Galaxy, and their reluctance to enter the Macau market, is very helpful, so thanks for that. I agree, if they're not going there, then it's probably not an avenue worth pursuing.
We are looking at other jurisdictions and markets, but were also considering Macau, hence this thread.
Thanks for the advice.
My advice is to come up with a cure for cancer, it will be much easier.Quote: ShineyShineThanks for the advice.
Quote: teliotMy advice is to come up with a cure for cancer, it will be much easier.
I appreciate the fact that you are trying to drive home the point of how tough this business is. But with all due respect, and at the risk of alienating an excellent potential source of advice and information, i'd suggest using a less flippant sounding analogy in future.
It's really quite quite thrilling in those casinos...
To SS, It might or might not be impossible but it just doesn't seem like its the right time for it. But then again you could be an early pioneer in Macau...
Let me put it another way then. You happen to have a few guys here who have had various degrees of success. You can't imagine the energy and money they have spent getting there, far beyond anything you could imagine. But what you don't hear much about here are the stories of the hundreds who have wasted years and small fortunes with no compensation whatsoever for their efforts. If you are as creative and smart as you appear, you can find an easier and more profitable way to innovate.Quote: ShineyShineI appreciate the fact that you are trying to drive home the point of how tough this business is. But with all due respect, and at the risk of alienating an excellent potential source of advice and information, i'd suggest using a less flippant sounding analogy in future.
Quote: teliotLet me put it another way then. You happen to have a few guys here who have had various degrees of success. You can't imagine the energy and money they have spent getting there, far beyond anything you could imagine. But what you don't hear much about here are the stories of the hundreds who have wasted years and small fortunes with no compensation whatsoever for their efforts. If you are as creative and smart as you appear, you can find an easier and more profitable way to innovate.
And i appreciate the advice, i really do. I think you, and the other posters that have expressed similar thoughts, are genuinely trying to dissuade me from wasting my time and money on such a difficult enterprise. I hesitated before posting my last comment, as the last thing i want to do is alienate anyone on here, least of all you. Having an (almost) direct line of communication with the guy who has written the definitive book on the subject is an unbelievable resource... and here i am having a war of words with him! D'oh!
I also appreciate the fact that probably many 'would be' inventors such as myself have appeared on here, and then disappeared just as fast. So i understand peolple are going to be skeptical until i've either proved some creds, or have disappeared. That's fair enough. That's why i didn't bother posting any guff about "Yeah ive loads of contacts in Macau, and loads of potential investors etc etc.", as no one would take it seriously. And that's fine, why would they?
But there also comes a point when the warnings have been taken on board, and if i choose to continue, foolish as that may be, then that's my choice.
Thanks
"Baccarat, Pai Gow, Sic Bo are products of thousands of years of culture, not individuals." does not say or imply Baccarat is Asian. Everyone knows it's by GEICO.Quote: teliotYou may want to check your history on baccarat.
Quote: nickolay411And that's how hardcore Macau really is. Just people who come to gamble. Gambling in its purest form without all those hoo-ha carnvial side bets and games.
It's really quite quite thrilling in those casinos...
To SS, It might or might not be impossible but it just doesn't seem like its the right time for it. But then again you could be an early pioneer in Macau...
Thanks nickolay. Maybe not the right time, but impossible is a bit extreme i think.
Quote: ShineyShineBut there also comes a point when the warnings have been taken on board, and if i choose to continue, foolish as that may be, then that's my choice.
Agreed. Soldier on......it appears that you know what you are doing.
Quote: ParadigmAgreed. Soldier on......it appears that you know what you are doing.
Thanks.
Quote: ShineyShineThanks nickolay. Maybe not the right time, but impossible is a bit extreme i think.
Its not impossible, prove everyone on here wrong....then buy us all a round top shelf drinks!
I say open up "the book", and read, comprehend, and understand pages 81-83, then once you've done that --- repeat! Elliot is absolutely right! However, if you already know all this information and are still fine with risking that amount of money - go for it. Also know that China isn't particularly tops in honoring intellectual property rights. However, I agree with your point regarding why any of us should be concerned with what you do with your own money. I know I could care less how anyone in here spends their own money. In closing, just know this, when it comes to this business, it will always take you longer to achieve your goal that you originally expected and it will always cost you more money than your originally budgeted.Quote: ShineyShineAnd i appreciate the advice, i really do. I think you, and the other posters that have expressed similar thoughts, are genuinely trying to dissuade me from wasting my time and money on such a difficult enterprise. I hesitated before posting my last comment, as the last thing i want to do is alienate anyone on here, least of all you. Having an (almost) direct line of communication with the guy who has written the definitive book on the subject is an unbelievable resource... and here i am having a war of words with him! D'oh!
I also appreciate the fact that probably many 'would be' inventors such as myself have appeared on here, and then disappeared just as fast. So i understand peolple are going to be skeptical until i've either proved some creds, or have disappeared. That's fair enough. That's why i didn't bother posting any guff about "Yeah ive loads of contacts in Macau, and loads of potential investors etc etc.", as no one would take it seriously. And that's fine, why would they?
But there also comes a point when the warnings have been taken on board, and if i choose to continue, foolish as that may be, then that's my choice.
Thanks
Read the Game Inventor's Coroner Corner section here cover-to-cover. It'll answer all questions.
also...PM Switch and MathExtremist here, they have games out.
However I repeat " There are no stat's on this, but my guess is of every hundred games that make it onto the casino floor each year,
ONE SURVIVES !
Quote: BuzzardMy ignorance in this field is legendary.
However I repeat " There are no stat's on this, but my guess is of every hundred games that make it onto the casino floor each year,
ONE SURVIVES !
And yet, there are people here who have multiple games out there!
...Incidentally, Switch, I hate you. Freebet and Switch took me for 1500 yesterday that I had to get back at regular double deck. =D (No, I'm not serious about the hate!)
Quote: doubleluckI say open up "the book", and read, comprehend, and understand pages 81-83, then once you've done that --- repeat! Elliot is absolutely right! However, if you already know all this information and are still fine with risking that amount of money - go for it. Also know that China isn't particularly tops in honoring intellectual property rights. However, I agree with your point regarding why any of us should be concerned with what you do with your own money. I know I could care less how anyone in here spends their own money. In closing, just know this, when it comes to this business, it will always take you longer to achieve your goal that you originally expected and it will always cost you more money than your originally budgeted.
Hi doubleluck
Thanks for the advice. I assume you're speaking from experience when you say that Eliot is absolutely right regarding the 'Be rich' section. Do you mind me asking how much you spent on Riverboat Roulette? I understand if you don't wish to disclose that information.
Reading back on this thread, i realise that the words of warning were all well intentioned, and i have taken them on board. I'm not expecting it to succeed, if miraculously it does it will be a bonus. I wont be quitting my job, or putting myself into debt trying it. However, i'm enjoying working on it, and wouldnt see it as time or effort wasted if, as seems highly likely, nothing comes of it.
Quote: PaigowdanIt's a hundred times hard than getting a screenplay ("script") to go production with an Indy film company.
Read the Game Inventor's Coroner Corner section here cover-to-cover. It'll answer all questions.
also...PM Switch and MathExtremist here, they have games out.
Hi Paigowdan
I've been going through the archives here on the Game Inventors Corner, and yes most questions have been answered. It's an absolute goldmine of information.
You were actually one of the member's i was thinking about PM'ing for advice, if that's ok with you?
Quote: BuzzardMy ignorance in this field is legendary.
However I repeat " There are no stat's on this, but my guess is of every hundred games that make it onto the casino floor each year,
ONE SURVIVES 
