I've created a new Game, but now have no idea what to do.
I've just signed up to this forum, and I think my thread title explains where I'm at.
I work as a dealer in a casino, and I've made a game which plays and deals really well and the maths works. I've been doing a lot of reading about how to get a new game onto the gaming floor and it seems that the route of patent attorney, mathematical analysis, then marketing seems almost unanimous. I don't know if I'm prepared to spend a huge amount of time and money following this path, even though I know my game is good, so I was wondering if there are any suggestions to other possible ways that I can make some cash out of my game idea.
Cheers
The thing I'm really struggling with is the patent process.
Is the patent process a two tier process: 1st determining whether an existing patent or game exists, and secondly drawing up a patent for one's game?
I've been on the patent webpage in the hope of searching for existing games but I felt like I had just entered the bar from star wars.
Also my understanding is a patent can only be issued for a non existing game, so I was interested in reading a post where it was asked whether first making the game into an app could be a way of by passing the normal patent attorney/mathematical analysis route. I was surprised that not many people where positive about this suggestion.
As mentioned, with my experience in the gaming industry, I'm certain my game is a good one. However, I'm not sure whether I've got the drive or cash to try and get it on the floor.
Anyway I'll take your advice and continue reading the recommended links.
Cheers
Quote: kingcreightsThanks.
The thing I'm really struggling with is the patent process.
Is the patent process a two tier process: 1st determining whether an existing patent or game exists, and secondly drawing up a patent for one's game?
I've been on the patent webpage in the hope of searching for existing games but I felt like I had just entered the bar from star wars.
Also my understanding is a patent can only be issued for a non existing game, so I was interested in reading a post where it was asked whether first making the game into an app could be a way of by passing the normal patent attorney/mathematical analysis route. I was surprised that not many people where positive about this suggestion.
As mentioned, with my experience in the gaming industry, I'm certain my game is a good one. However, I'm not sure whether I've got the drive or cash to try and get it on the floor.
Anyway I'll take your advice and continue reading the recommended links.
Cheers
If you are close on the math and the actual game concept, you should explore the provisional patent route. It will cost around $200 and it will provide you with a year to see if the interest is there and buy you some time without spending several thousand dollars.
The patent search can be very intimidating at first. I actually like google patents for searching the database of existing patents. It just seems to be easier to navigate. I usually start by searching for "video poker" and all the patents that are returned from that search I read the abstract and look at the drawings to see if it is remotely similar...if it is I write the patent number down to use as prior art. I then go back to the search and narrow it down to something like "bonus hands" and search from there. Rinse and repeat several times and you will get a good feel for what is out there. As long as there is nothing very similar to your idea, you should be okay. BTW, love the Star Wars reference!
I would avoid the app thing especially if you don't have a patent. I think the app thing is another way to get your game out there, like a working demo, but if it does well someone may actually file for a patent and technically steal your idea. Just my thoughts.
Absolutely avoid the app until you have a patent or provisional patent.
In fact, if published before applying for the patent, it can invalidate any protection you may be looking for in a patent.
I'm in Australia, and was concerned that my head was about to catch on fire trying to search the patents website, so I gave them a call, and they actually offered the same google suggestion which you just did.
If I were to go the provisional patent route, do you think I would need an attorney to draft the patent, or is it something which could be done by myself? My game isn't complicated, and there is minimal decision making. I suppose if i had to describe it's complexity by using a rating system where casino war is a 1 and blackjack a 10, my game would come in around a 3 or 4.
I'm nearly certain the games design is complete. I'm going to deal it to some friends tonight to get some feedback. Many of them aren't gamblers so I'm going to deal blackjack, casino war, three card poker, and my game. I'm then going to get them to rate the games.
The math is quite simple so I'm certain the house edge lies between 3-4. The beauty of my game is it incorporates a 10:1 and a 20:1 payout (in its current form) so it is quite easy for the house edge to be adjusted by changing one or two of these odds.
I don't need to incorporate the house edge in a patent application do I? As I said I'm certain that in it present form it lies between 3 and 4, and can be easily adjusted. So I suppose what I'm asking is can I patent it without being 100 precise of the house edge.
It's amazing that star wars bar scene. As a young adult I saw the "squeal like a pig scene" in deliverence, Linda Blair's head turning around in the exorcist, and people shooting themselves in the head in the Deer Hunter, but nothing has affected me more profoundly than imagining having a drink in that bar.
Anyway, thanks for the suggestions
Quote: kingcreightsWouldn't I then be covered under copyright law?
Copyrighting and patents are not the same thing, not even close. A patent gives you a full range of protection of your game for 20 years. Copyrighting only keeps your written intellectual property safe, which is not strong enough to protect the actual game. Trademarking will help with your logos and your layouts but again it doesn't offer the protection that a patent does.
In the US it is now much harder to patent a game so I would definitely suggest a lawyer. In Europe games without a mechanical component are no longer patentable. I don't know what the laws are in Aus/NZ but you should probably try and find out from a local lawyer.
After your game is done, try and get a mathematical analysis done of your game. It will depend on the complexity of the analysis as to how much you will need to pay. There are some very good guys on here that you can reseaarch and use. After that you will have to come up with a game plan. Where will you attempt to market your game? If you want to go the US route, you will have to apply for a patent in the USA, you being in Aus makes no difference but remember that patent will only protect your game in the US. Next find out more details about the process in Aus and perhaps start talking to local casinos.
It is a laborsome process, one which we are slap bang in the middle of.
Wish you all the best bud!
I'm currently in the process of looking into the process of patenting here in Australia. Seems that there is a Patent Co-operation Treaty(PCT) which allows for a game to be covered both in Aus and various other countries.
Whats your opinion on a provisional patent which RealizeGaming suggested? Also if i do go the provisional route would you still suggest a lawyer?
Many thanks
Quote: kingcreightsCheers,
I'm currently in the process of looking into the process of patenting here in Australia. Seems that there is a Patent Co-operation Treaty(PCT) which allows for a game to be covered both in Aus and various other countries.
Whats your opinion on a provisional patent which RealizeGaming suggested? Also if i do go the provisional route would you still suggest a lawyer?
Many thanks
A provisional patent is no less important than a full patent. The problem is that you would require certain language to be able to explain your game in a clear and proficient manner. This, in my opinion would either require a lawyer or the advice of a lawyer. Either way, it probably won't be for free unless you have an uncle in the business. :)
Also I would be careful about the PCT as it in itself is not a patent but rather a unified procedure for patent applications. Filing for a PCT in your own country does not automatically mean that you have a patent in the USA. You still will have to apply for a patent in the USA using the PCT guidelines (or something to that effect, a lawyer will be able to tell you more). I would just be careful of thinking that because you have filed through a PCT, you are now covered in 148 countries.....I don't believe that is so.
Read, read and read some more, there really is some great info out here!
Quote: kingcreightsWhats your opinion on a provisional patent which RealizeGaming suggested? Also if i do go the provisional route would you still suggest a lawyer?
I recently went the provisional route, with a lawyer, and was very satisfied. My idea was a little more off the beaten path, and I feel I wouldn't have done a very good job if I'd tried to do it myself. I could also be somewhat more confident that the idea wasn't already covered in another patent, since afaik a patent search wasn't included in the provisional patent. Given the cost difference compared to a utility patent, and the low success rate of casino games, I think it's a winner, though there are developers on both sides who are more experienced than I.
I'd also suggest not overlooking the significance of expo/trade show attendance to attract attention to your game. I thought I was going to simply be able to submit my game via various internet submissions and get a thumbs up or thumbs down, but I can't seem to get a reply from any of the three companies I've approached this way.
Quote: socksI recently went the provisional route, with a lawyer, and was very satisfied. My idea was a little more off the beaten path, and I feel I wouldn't have done a very good job if I'd tried to do it myself. I could also be somewhat more confident that the idea wasn't already covered in another patent, since afaik a patent search wasn't included in the provisional patent. Given the cost difference compared to a utility patent, and the low success rate of casino games, I think it's a winner, though there are developers on both sides who are more experienced than I.
I'd also suggest not overlooking the significance of expo/trade show attendance to attract attention to your game. I thought I was going to simply be able to submit my game via various internet submissions and get a thumbs up or thumbs down, but I can't seem to get a reply from any of the three companies I've approached this way.
I found the doors were more than open when it was time to demo our game. I don't have a lot of experience doing this, but my strong impression was that nothing beats showing them the game in person, if you're talking about a table game. It was worth the expense of flying to Vegas, having made appointments ahead of time, and seeing distributors and casinos, being able to deal to them and answer their quesitons on the spot, because that's how they sell the games themselves; in person. They want an idea of how it presents that really can't be conveyed any other way.
Why didn't you go the non-provisional path, especially considering you were already paying a lawyer. Was it simply that the provisional was cheaper?
The fact that I live in Aus means I definitely will do the expo/trade shows, as it would also make it a bit like a holiday.
I really appreciate all the advice guys.
Cheers
How much did you end up paying for the provisional patent including lawyer fees?
Thanks again
Quote: kingcreightsI had a look at the shufflemaster website, regarding new game submissions, and I was interested to see that in order to submit a game to them, ones game has to have 1 been submitted for a non-provisional patent, 2 Patent approved, or 3 currently in a casino. There was no option for a provisional submission. I was wondering whether this was the norm?
Why didn't you go the non-provisional path, especially considering you were already paying a lawyer. Was it simply that the provisional was cheaper?
I tried to submit at IGT, Williams, and Aristocrat. My game was a video game and SHFL/Bally's appeared to only be taking table game submissions, so I didn't attempt to submit there. I believe IGT and Williams said that a provisional was ok and the Aristocrat submission was just "give us a brief description and we'll email you if we're interested.", so I don't really know there... and their submission policy link seems to be broke, at least on MacOS/Chrome.
That said, I did eventually get IGT to respond after I got an internal email contact, and they said their submission page is officially down, but they'd let me know when it was back up. I know they did accept submission's not that long ago, but for the time being, they don't. The other two simply didn't respond.
And yes, I went the provisional path due to the cost. I felt like the numbers sort of add up in my head that way, but it's hard to imagine the expected return being large enough to go straight for the utility patent (non-provisional) from the start. Things happen, and sinking that money in early, if you can do otherwise, seems bad to me. But for all I know, SHFL/Bally's may make the table game side an entire different ballgame. Good luck.
Quote: beachbumbabsI don't have a lot of experience doing this, but my strong impression was that nothing beats showing them the game in person, if you're talking about a table game.
In my case, it wasn't a table game. And I did try calling IGT to ask questions or get an appointment and I got a long list of automated phone options, none of which sounded promising. I decided not to leave a message in their general purpose voice mailbox. Maybe having a table game and calling SHFL for an appointment is simple a different experience.
Quote: kingcreightsYou've also got me thinking that maybe the provisional is the way to go if I intend to look for backers. If I can't fund the whole process myself then with a provisional I can demonstrate my idea to potential backers and have an element of protection from them taking my game.
How much did you end up paying for the provisional patent including lawyer fees?
Some people go with an NDA to approach backers. Personally, I like the idea of filing a provisional patent instead, since I'm not particularly eager to sign an NDA on the other side. I'd rather work with people who have a provisional filed. I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot with the cost/ lawyer bit, but I went with Rich Newman and it cost $1439. Hopefully no one minds a little repetition since everyone who's worked with Rich seems to like him, though I'm sure there are other good choices too. Someone recently suggested Jon Muskin, for instance.
Quote: socksSome people go with an NDA to approach backers. Personally, I like the idea of filing a provisional patent instead, since I'm not particularly eager to sign an NDA on the other side. I'd rather work with people who have a provisional filed. I feel like I'm repeating myself a lot with the cost/ lawyer bit, but I went with Rich Newman and it cost $1439. Hopefully no one minds a little repetition since everyone who's worked with Rich seems to like him, though I'm sure there are other good choices too. Someone recently suggested Jon Muskin, for instance.
That's not repetition for me: it's information I love hearing.
Just to be 100% certain, that's Richard Newman who is an attorney at Howard & Howard in Las Vegas (just did a quick search)?
Thanks for that.
Quote: kingcreightsThat's not repetition for me: it's information I love hearing.
Just to be 100% certain, that's Richard Newman who is an attorney at Howard & Howard in Las Vegas (just did a quick search)?
Thanks for that.
Yeah, that's him and he posts here as RichN
Quote: TomspurYeah, that's him and he posts here as RichN
I just sent him an email that very minute.
If my game gets up and running I'm tempted to give everyone in this forum a percentage.
Quote: kingcreightsI currently work at a casino in Australia as a dealer. If I do develop my game, is there any way that the casino may claim that my game is their property as I am their employee.
It shouldn't be a problem as long as you didn't work on the idea at work.
Quote: kingcreightsI currently work at a casino in Australia as a dealer. If I do develop my game, is there any way that the casino may claim that my game is their property as I am their employee.
I certainly hope not! ... I'm in a very similar situation as you, i work in a casino as a dealer, and am working on a new table game. I dont see how the casino could have any claim of ownership, but maybe one of the patent lawyers on here could answer that.
Quote: RealizeGamingAs long as you didn't use company time to work on your game, I don't see how they can touch it.
*cough* No comment *cough*
Quote: kingcreightsI had a look at the shufflemaster website, regarding new game submissions, and I was interested to see that in order to submit a game to them, ones game has to have 1 been submitted for a non-provisional patent, 2 Patent approved, or 3 currently in a casino. There was no option for a provisional submission. I was wondering whether this was the norm? .
I think the "non-" part is a typo. Is there such a thing? I don't think so.
They won't talk with anyone without one of those things because they may already be developing something similar and don't want to run into any troubles, etc.
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I did two provisional patents myself. Cost about $125 each. Done right, it gives you protection for one year. Plenty if time to get opinions. Then you either have to get a lawyer to file the utility patent or abandon the idea. When the utility is finally issued, it will be back-dated to the date of the provisional application date.
The problem is, screw up the provisional wording and you can really be up shit creek.
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Yeah, you got the right Rich Newman. I tried to use him for my first idea. He told me it was a bad idea and might not even be patentable. IE, talked himself out of a customer. I later found out he was right, and was just saving me money and headaches. I used him for my second idea. He said the provisional I wrote was fine, even asked if I ever had any law training or experience.
Quote: ShineyShine*cough* No comment *cough*
Well, as long as they can't prove it!
you signed an employment agreement assigning invention rights, or
you were specifically hired (even without a written agreement) for your inventing skills or to create the invention.
http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/who-owns-patent-rights-employer-inventor.html
Quote: RealizeGamingWell, as long as they can't prove it!
Was mostly joking with the No Comment post to be honest... I did measure the dimensions of a table and borrow a blackjack shoe... It never even crossed my mind as an issue before reading this thread
Quote: DJTeddyBearI think the "non-" part is a typo. Is there such a thing? I don't think so.
They won't talk with anyone without one of those things because they may already be developing something similar and don't want to run into any troubles, etc.
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I did two provisional patents myself. Cost about $125 each. Done right, it gives you protection for one year. Plenty if time to get opinions. Then you either have to get a lawyer to file the utility patent or abandon the idea. When the utility is finally issued, it will be back-dated to the date of the provisional application date.
The problem is, screw up the provisional wording and you can really be up shit creek.
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Yeah, you got the right Rich Newman. I tried to use him for my first idea. He told me it was a bad idea and might not even be patentable. IE, talked himself out of a customer. I later found out he was right, and was just saving me money and headaches. I used him for my second idea. He said the provisional I wrote was fine, even asked if I ever had any law training or experience.
Did you read any guides on how to write a patent application that you could recommend?
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Dstripbooks&field-keywords=nolo%20patent
Quote: kingcreightsDid you read any guides on how to write a patent application that you could recommend?
Here's an example provisional patent Paigowdan provided
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/3941-sample-provisional-patent-for-a-game/
and another thread on provisional patents:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/3433-provional-patents-dyi-for-game-inventors/
Quote: socksHere's an example provisional patent Paigowdan provided
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/3941-sample-provisional-patent-for-a-game/
and another thread on provisional patents:
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gaming-business/game-inventors/3433-provional-patents-dyi-for-game-inventors/
I had a look at the example by paigowdan and I'm confused as to why mathematical calculations have been included. Is that the norm for a provisional application?
