Mulligan 21 Opening
Information on Angel of the Winds can be found here: Angel of the Winds
Information on Mulligan 21 can be found here: Mulligan 21
For those of you that have been to AOTW, you likely have experienced their excellent deal staff. I hoped that one of our games would get a chance on their floor as a critical component to a new game's success is the deal staff in place at the property conducting the trial. I am of the opinion that AOTW has the kind of deal staff every new game developer wants to have dealing their game.
M21 will be live tomorrow at 10AM.
Quote: ParadigmLucky and I are pleased to announce the opening of Mulligan 21 at Angel of the Winds Casino in Arlington, WA.
I initially read this as Arlington, VA and got very excited until I realized VA won't have casinos until after I'm long gone...
This is great! To get a Premium base game out - not just the side bet - is very fine.
Best of Luck and keep us posted!
Quote: ParadigmLucky and I are pleased to announce the opening of Mulligan 21 at Angel of the Winds Casino in Arlington, WA.
Information on Angel of the Winds can be found here: Angel of the Winds
Information on Mulligan 21 can be found here: Mulligan 21
For those of you that have been to AOTW, you likely have experienced their excellent deal staff. I hoped that one of our games would get a chance on their floor as a critical component to a new game's success is the deal staff in place at the property conducting the trial. I am of the opinion that AOTW has the kind of deal staff every new game developer wants to have dealing their game.
M21 will be live tomorrow at 10AM.
Congrats paradigm!
Very thorough and natural game play example, you demonstrated the game play extremely well; you made very clear that face cards get the Mulligan, but that pip-10 cards do not. You show that BJ's get paid even money, but that a Mulligan saved and won his 19 hand via the Mulligan mechanism. That's how it works, and it seems to work very well.
Very nice and clear video. And your voice even sounds relaxed, soothing and melodious! Angel of the Winds also did a nice tab link to your game, - front and center! And I like the "Kevin Patrick Mulligan" smiling face logo.
Just a great video. A winner!
Could NOT be happier for you! Now you have both games in play; wow! I hope it becomes a must-have for all the WA cardrooms and casinos, and spreads well from there.
But now I am really confused. I watched the video and read the rack card. ( Yes, I can read,Lucky ) The rack card says :
Follow normal Blackjack rules and procedures. In the video the suave dealer did not check for Blackjack when he had the Jack of Spades as his up card. He then proceeded to pay a player's Blackjack. All fine and dandy at that point in time.
But he then lets each player finish their action before exposing the dealer's down card. What if there was an Ace underneath ?
And I had split 3 times and doubled on 2 of them, would I lose all bets?
Also noticed when a player busted, the dealer took his cards and bet. So if I split 8's, then busted both hands and dealer then showed me a Blackjack ???
Or am I confused as usual ????
Before answering, please be aware that the rules about insults have been greatly tightened .
Would you mind divulging HE on optimal play?
Edit: After posting I realized I might have sounded a little snarky, not the intent.
If you get a 10 then you have to keep it?
Can the face card dumped be after the first drawn card? For example, I start with 2/4 for a total of six and draw a 7, if the next card is a jack, can I replace it or do I bust?
I assume the dealer S17 for the push rule?
If the 17 would beat me would I still push?
The rack card could be worded a little better, it simply says after initial hand, so best wait for the inventor to post in AM.
Fairly confident a PUSH is a PUSH.
But I have been known to be easily confused. That's why I signed the alimony agreement with Babs.
Quote: BuzzardOh my. I am confused. I am guessing if I doubled down on 12 and got a face card, I can get a mulligan. I think so.
Yes, you can take a Mulligan after a double down and are dealt a Face Card. Would happen on soft total double downs (e.g. Soft 13-16 Doubling against Dealer upcard of 4-6 as an example)
Quote: BuzzardFollow normal Blackjack rules and procedures. In the video the suave dealer did not check for Blackjack when he had the Jack of Spades as his up card. He then proceeded to pay a player's Blackjack.
You got me......the cards were set up so I knew I didn't have a BJ. The real dealer......you know the one that actually has training & experience under their belt, would need to check for BJ.
However, they would do so after paying any player Blackjacks, as they always win, and the Lucky Stiff side bet as it wins on a Player blackjack as well. Stiff Pair winners on the Lucky Stiff side bet would also be paid prior to the dealer checking for Blackjack as they win regardless of dealer's hand.
Quote: ahiromuI died a little inside when I read that if the dealer draws 17, your bet pushes. Best of luck.
Would you mind divulging HE on optimal play?
Edit: After posting I realized I might have sounded a little snarky, not the intent.
Yep, the push on dealer 17 is the pull back for the Mulligan rule, the only silver lining with this rule is there will be the occasional hand that the rule helps the player.
As an example, Player doubles on and 11 and is dealt a 4. Dealer draws to 17 and instead of losing the hand (player 15 vs. dealer 17), the player's doubled bet will push.
Or player stands on a hard 14 against a dealer upcard of 6. Dealer has an Ace as the downcard (this is a stand on Soft 17 game because of the push rule) or the dealer ends up drawing to 17. Either way, the player's 14 will push against the dealer's higher hand of 17. Any Lucky Stiff side bet would also push.
HE with optimal play is a 0.42%, but like Spanish 21, you will need to make adjustments from BJ basic strategy to achieve optimal play.
No snarkiness detected :-).
Suppose poorly trained dealers let you mulligan a 10 as well as a face. What's the player's edge? And what is the table max?
Quote: PokeraddictThe placard says that you can only dump a J, Q or K and replace it with the next card.
If you get a 10 then you have to keep it?
Yes, you are stuck with any 10 pip cards. They cannot be Mulligan'd.
Quote: PokeraddictCan the face card dumped be after the first drawn card? For example, I start with 2/4 for a total of six and draw a 7, if the next card is a jack, can I replace it or do I bust?
Yes, once per hand you can replace any hit face card at any time, so in your example, you would be able to Mulligan the Jack. Assume further that your replacement card was an Ace to give you a total of 14. You can continue to hit after receiving your replacement card for the Mulligan but if you subsequently draw another face card, you would bust.
Quote: PokeraddictI assume the dealer S17 for the push rule?
Yes, all main bets and Lucky Stiff side bets will push on a soft 17. Dealer stops hitting their hand on a soft or hard 17 as all bets push at that point.
Quote: PokeraddictIf the 17 would beat me would I still push?
Yes, so there are occasional hands where the Push 17 will help a player.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOk, here is the real question. Suppose poorly trained dealers let you mulligan a 10 as well as a face. What's the player's edge? And what is the table max?
Yeah, that would be a problem for the house and our game performance :-). I would be shocked if this happened at the initial install as this deal staff is pretty good and we have done quite a bit of training. But, you are right in that it may happen somewhere at some point. We don't have that edge calculated.
Quote: ParadigmYeah, that would be a problem for the house and our game performance :-). I would be shocked if this happened at the initial install as this deal staff is pretty good and we have done quite a bit of training. But, you are right in that it may happen somewhere at some point. We don't have that edge calculated.
Totally not your fault, of course.
I was at a casino recently. They had just put in MS Stud (that day). Dealer comes up to the table, and tells the floor, ok, I don't know how this game works! The floor stands over her shoulder for ONE HAND, shows her how to handle payoffs (stack the chips on this spot, and pay them out in stacks) and then wanders off. That was the extent of dealer training.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOk, here is the real question.
Suppose poorly trained dealers let you mulligan a 10 as well as a face. What's the player's edge? And what is the table max?
I was thinking the same thing. It's ingrained into every dealers brain that 10 J Q and K are all treated the same (for every bj and bj variant that I'm aware of). So there's gotta be dealers that are gonna make that mistake.
The biggest one the dealers were concerned with was remembering to stand on S17 as AOTW hits S17 everywhere else on the floor.
I thought that was the case. But I do like that player's blackjack gets paid before dealer checks for BJ.
And I did say"suave" Dealer !
Any on the pip-10 versus face card issue:
We had the same issue: on our Heads Up Hold 'em game, we have a bonus bet called "Pocket Bonus," which pays if your hole cards are an Ace-FACE or a pair.
Dealers who were basically POKER dealers had no problem. They knew AK/Ace-Face was better than A-10, for example.
But the Blackjack dealers who trained on this poker game also paid A-10 hands as if they were Ace-Face hands. What we did was a couple of things, like using terminology:
1. say "Mulligan FACE card was drawn" in training, (and say "Pip ten cards are no good: Gladys Knight fired them.")
You can even say "Only a FACE can approve a do-over, and say 'Yeah, Okay, Swap me out.'"
Let them think not of a "Mulligan card," but instead a "Mulligan FACE card" as the phrase, - and when they remember the phrase, they'll remember the correct action to take.
2. Rubber-band together about six sample hands, to use in training the dealers, and say: "okay, dealer, now whad'ya do here...." and Michael and Harry can do the training:
Dealer Training sample hands:
Player has Hand #1: 3-3-hits for a 10 - "Dealer, can the Player Mulligan his pip-10 card here?" No, stuck with a crap hand.
Player has Hand #2: 3-3- hits for a Q - "Dealer, can the Player Mulligan his FACE card here?" Yes, save the hand.
Player has Hand #3: 5-9, hits a 10 - "Dealer, can the Player Mulligan his pip-10 card here?" No, stuck with a bust.
Player has Hand #4: 5-9, hits a J - "Dealer, can the Player Mulligan his face card here?" Yes, so do a "Joe Pesci:" Hay, not DAT card - hit me again, give me a smaller one!
Player has Hand #5 A-3, double downs a K - "Dealer, can the Player Mulligan his face card here?" Yes.
Player has Hand #6 A-3, double downs a 10 - "Dealer, can the Player Mulligan his pip-10 here?" No.
Edit: Michael said another training issue is the dealer's reflex to hit that Soft-17. So also use a variety of soft-17 sample dealer hands to "get this into their hands." Good dealer training really involves muscle memory. It's like riding a bike, you don't learn it from it being described.
Quote: ParadigmWe did hammer the 10 Pip Card is not Mulligan eligible in training. And it does say "Player May replace One Hit Face Card" right on the layout in front of the dealer & players...all that being said, I like Dan's additional training steps and will implement them in future training sessions.
It is making them do it with sample hands that really teaches them and drives it home. And be gentle, dealers may be slow.....
It getting dealers to learn new things by doing, it's A little less conversation, a little more action....
First, thanks to all for the well wishes and excellent comments.
Good dealer training is indeed important for the start of a new game, and the points made about the most likely dealer mistakes for the Mulligan rule are well taken. It will be challenging for dealers to separate in their minds the handling of the faces and 10-spot cards. Paigowdan's training suggestions are not 'overkill' at all - the face vs. 10-spot difference will have to be drilled and experienced hands-on by dealers. I think that adapting to the Push 17 rule will be easier for dealers, especially those who are used to 'Dealer Stands on Soft 17' play. But to be sure, there will be dealer errors during the start-up period, which makes it extra important that the floor supervisors are well-schooled and focus more of their attention on the M21 table in the beginning stage.
With respect to the cost of a dealer allowing a Mulligan on a 10-spot hit, it is 1.65% - yes, very costly for the house - reversing a skinny 0.42% house advantage to a 1.23% player advantage. So AxionOfChoice, find a table and go for it!!!
Quote: LuckyLove the Gladys Knight and Elvis references, Paigowdan. VERY appropriate and aptly done!
Just shows that I've been in Vegas for Too long.
BTW, I do live at the intersection of Dean Martin Drive and Jerry Lewis Way, seriously (good location). Stop in when in town with Michael!
There's also a Mel Torme Way, and a Frank Sinatra, but not sure if there's a Tom Jones Way.
Quote: Lucky.... I think that adapting to the Push 17 rule will be easier for dealers, especially those who are used to 'Dealer Stands on Soft 17' play. But to be sure, there will be dealer errors during the start-up period, which makes it extra important that the floor supervisors are well-schooled and focus more of their attention on the M21 table in the beginning stage.
With respect to the cost of a dealer allowing a Mulligan on a 10-spot hit, it is 1.65% - yes, very costly for the house - reversing a skinny 0.42% house advantage to a 1.23% player advantage. So AxionOfChoice, find a table and go for it!!!
If dealers pay remaining winning hands on a 17, it'll be trouble, a huge player advantage....
17 - PUSH! 17-PUSH! 17 - PUSH! 17-PUSH!
drill it good.
Quote: PaigowdanJust shows that I've been in Vegas for Too long.
BTW, I do live at the intersection of Dean Martin Drive and Jerry Lewis Way, seriously (good location). Stop in when in town with Michael!
Will do, Dan. What a great spot for a gamer ... and music lover!
I like references to music, especially for the likes of the cohort here, because it's just such a powerful reference point.
Quote: PaigowdanIf dealers pay remaining winning hands on a 17, it'll be trouble, a huge player advantage....
17 - PUSH! 17-PUSH! 17 - PUSH! 17-PUSH!
drill it good.
Haven't even considered that possibility! That would spell D-I-S-A-S-T-E-R !!!
Yes, both new rules (Mulligan and Push 17) need to be drilled.
I'm glad to see an entrepreneur getting a chance with his better mousetrap.
I wish your website had larger text size for the layout's fine print. I hope its larger on the actual layout.
Player confusion is bad but novelty will appeal to the players too so you should get good traffic at the game.
Dealer mistakes is something you won't really have control over, but good luck.
Quote: BuzzardWith just a skinny HE on the game itself, and little chance for errors by a player, other than the everyday basic violations, looks like Lucky Stiff will have to carry the day ! Or am I missing something ? As usual.
Why is there little chance for player errors? Most will just play their normal blackjack strategy. How costly is that?
Has anyone published the basic strategy for this game yet? I would figure it out but I'm kind of in the middle of writing up a simulation for a different game...
Quote: BuzzardWith just a skinny HE on the game itself, and little chance for errors by a player, other than the everyday basic violations, looks like Lucky Stiff will have to carry the day ! Or am I missing something ?
The only thing you might be missing, Buzz, is that the average 'basic strategy' player will have to put in the effort to learn the adjustments to basic BJ strategy required to gain the 'thinner' M21 HE. These adjustments are all in the 'stiff' total range (hard 12-16). Some are intuitive; others not as much. If a player employs basic BJ strategy without making the M21 strategy adjustments, he/she will play to a 1.72% house edge. So in terms of what will predictably actually happen on the floor, the M21 edge does not look as 'skinny.'
Combine the above with the mistakes that players will make because of the Lucky Stiff side bet riding on the outcome of the main bet, and the overall picture looks even better for the house. The very savvy, skillful and informed player (how many of those are out there), though, will find an opportunity to win more.
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceWhy is there little chance for player errors? Most will just play their normal blackjack strategy. How costly is that?
Has anyone published the basic strategy for this game yet? I would figure it out but I'm kind of in the middle of writing up a simulation for a different game...
As noted in the post above, playing basic blackjack strategy will cost a player 1.30%. The game's optimal strategy has not been published yet, but I can make it available to you if you PM me.
Quote: LuckyAs noted in the post above, playing basic blackjack strategy will cost a player 1.30%. The game's optimal strategy has not been published yet, but I can make it available to you if you PM me.
I was just curious to see how counter-intuitive the changes were. I'd expect most players to never risk busting against a 7. Other than that, I'd expect that they will more or less follow their regular blackjack strategy (which, itself, is not quite accurate)
Is the side bet mandatory or optional? I wonder if people will get turned off by the fact that they will often have to choose between trying to win the side bet and trying to win the main bet (this is unusual; most side bets are resolved before any playing decisions are made)
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI was just curious to see how counter-intuitive the changes were. I'd expect most players to never risk busting against a 7. Other than that, I'd expect that they will more or less follow their regular blackjack strategy (which, itself, is not quite accurate)
Is the side bet mandatory or optional? I wonder if people will get turned off by the fact that they will often have to choose between trying to win the side bet and trying to win the main bet (this is unusual; most side bets are resolved before any playing decisions are made)
That's the big adjustment: never risk busting against a dealer 7. When your Mulligan is available, the other big stand-hit adjustments are: always stand on hard 16 (except against an Ace) and always hit on hard 12 (and double against a dealer 6). When your Mulligan is not available, never risk busting unless you have a hard 12 or 13 against a dealer 8 or higher. If a player makes those adjustments only, he/she has most of the error cost covered.
Optimal soft hand, double-down and split strategy is less important mathematically, but players need to treat a dealer 7 up pretty much like a dealer 6 up. Intuitively, they should know to be slightly more aggressive doubling down and splitting when their Mulligan is available.
Of course, players still need to know proper Mulligan-taking strategy, which is easy and intuitive: 1- Mulligan when you draw a face card that busts your hand; 2- Mulligan when you draw a face card when hitting or doubling down on a hard 4–7, or a hard 8 against a dealer 9 or ten; 3- Mulligan when you draw a face card when hitting or doubling down on a soft 12–18, except a soft 18 against a dealer 8.
The side bet is optional. And yes, some players will have trouble betting on getting a bad hand. What we've observed in the early trials, though, is that the occurrence frequency of getting a stiff hand (38.5%) is driven home as players see 'made' and 'missed' opportunities of getting a multiple payout. The bet may be accurately viewed as a true 'hedge' bet. So it will be interesting to see the magnitude of the objection you cite. What we're hoping is that the prospect of 'turning a bad hand into a good one' will be a stronger force. True that this is mainly a back-end resolution bet, but stiff pairs and blackjacks are resolved on the front-end.
Quote: LuckyThe side bet is optional. And yes, some players will have trouble betting on getting a bad hand. What we've observed in the early trials, though, is that the occurrence frequency of getting a stiff hand (38.5%) is driven home as players see 'made' and 'missed' opportunities of getting a multiple payout. The bet may be accurately viewed as a true 'hedge' bet. So it will be interesting to see the magnitude of the objection you cite. What we're hoping is that the prospect of 'turning a bad hand into a good one' will be a stronger force. True that this is mainly a back-end resolution bet, but stiff pairs and blackjacks are resolved on the front-end.
I'm not talking about the hedging aspect (players love that). Maybe I'm not quote understanding the rules, but I thought that if you started with, say, a hard 15, hit it, and improved to a 21, you were eligible to win the main bet but no longer eligible to win the side (since you don't have a stiff any more). Is that not correct?
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceI'm not talking about the hedging aspect (players love that). Maybe I'm not quote understanding the rules, but I thought that if you started with, say, a hard 15, hit it, and improved to a 21, you were eligible to win the main bet but no longer eligible to win the side (since you don't have a stiff any more). Is that not correct?
No. In the instance you cited, you would either win or push both bets with your 21. You need only 'qualify' on the side with a starting stiff hand. Then you can stand or hit to beat the dealer (on both bets).
Quote: LuckyNo. In the instance you cited, you would either win or push both bets with your 21. You need only 'qualify' on the side with a starting stiff hand. Then you can stand or hit to beat the dealer (on both bets).
Oh, I see. That is not so bad then -- at no point does your best sidebet strategy contradict your best main bet strategy. (from looking at your strategy post, it looks like you would only ever double a stiff if its a 12 vs a 6, and that is a hand that you would never hit again anyway, so if you are following proper strategy, you never make a main-bet play with a stiff that would reduce your chances of winning the hand, except for splits, but those are automatically paid so it doesn't matter)
Quote: BuzzardWith just a skinny HE on the game itself, and little chance for errors by a player, other than the everyday basic violations, looks like Lucky Stiff will have to carry the day ! Or am I missing something ? As usual.
You are grossly overestimating the skill level of the average player
Quote: michael99000You are grossly overestimating the skill level of the average player
I am just saying you have to compete against the WIN of other table games. In Switch, UTH , S21, etc., you gain an additional edge by people betting wrong. Here you just have the game edge plus normal BJ misplays. No too hard to figure out when to discard a JQK !
Quote: AxiomOfChoiceOh, I see. That is not so bad then -- at no point does your best sidebet strategy contradict your best main bet strategy. (from looking at your strategy post, it looks like you would only ever double a stiff if its a 12 vs a 6, and that is a hand that you would never hit again anyway, so if you are following proper strategy, you never make a main-bet play with a stiff that would reduce your chances of winning the hand, except for splits, but those are automatically paid so it doesn't matter)
Bingo!
