EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:15:43 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

How can Shuffle Master possible market a game if it's not in some contest?



The competition is the showcase of the event, it's what
gets all the press, it's what the 98% of the industry will
hear about that didn't attend. What games won Raving
is the news, not what games were there. Nobody
remembers the playoff's, but they sure remember who
won the Superbowl.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:16:27 PM permalink
Good points, Dan. I'm convinced more than ever that EB either is just a muckraker or that he knows absolutely NOTHING about the business. His lack of insight is comical. Keep fighting the fight.
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:20:16 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The competition is the showcase of the event, it's what
gets all the press, it's what the 98% of the industry will
hear about that didn't attend. What games won Raving
is the news, not what games were there. Nobody
remembers the playoff's, but they sure remember who
won the Superbowl.


The press? Super Bowl? You don't know what you are talking about. Pacman said shuffle installed a thousand games last year. How many of those won some contest?
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:20:32 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The competition is the showcase of the event, it's what
gets all the press, it's what the 98% of the industry will
hear about that didn't attend. What games won Raving
is the news, not what games were there. Nobody
remembers the playoff's, but they sure remember who
won the Superbowl.


No. Thermos is right. They have a sales force. A game makes it on its own merits, although it is better to have some press.
Nobody has to remember the playoffs. A 21-7 pitcher on a 3rd place team doesn't regret missing the playoffs and all that press. A 20 game winner doesn't care about the playoffs, he cares about winning 20 games (or installs). Tom Seaver played for the Mets, and made it into the Hall of Fame by the highest voting percentage ever.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:24:04 PM permalink
But it's a sad situation for the vast majority of
everybody connected to the gambling side of
the gambling industry. No jackpots, no installs,
no riches, turns out we're not as smart as we
think, your game is a turkey, sorry..

Quote: Paigowdan


No it isn't.
First of all, the only project that guarantees failure is the project not taken.



Still a sad situation, Dan. But it's inevitable in the
invention business, and the publishing business
also. Rejection comes with the territory, nothing
ventured nothing gained.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:25:15 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

Good points, Dan. I'm convinced more than ever that EB either is just a muckraker



Another genius heard from. Lol
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:28:28 PM permalink
EB inadvertently brings up a good point. How many game developers make or have made a comfortable living at this? I bet it's a small number.
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:31:19 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Still a sad situation, Dan. But it's inevitable in the
invention business, and the publishing business
also. Rejection comes with the territory, nothing
ventured nothing gained.


It's sad if you turn into a dreamer of what could have been, depleting resources on a dream, like the movie Being Flynn. It's a story of a man, a writer, who got no installs of his novel, and pursued his dream into bankruptcy, squalor, and madness.

Nobody should give up their day time job, or risk financial or emotional ruin because they tinker in the garage or den after work on a new game. I dealt for years on swing shift until 3AM saying "I'll do both." Success doesn't happen until it happens, and it is a fundamental of all to recognize this. If they don't, it's on them.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:32:20 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

A game makes it on its own merits, although it is better to have some press.
.



Yup, and that's my whole point about Raving, the
press involved. It's also about timing, and that's
something nobody can foresee. The right game
at the right time in the right venue. Word of mouth
is everything, it can make or break you. Look at
BJ. It's still going because the word was, it can be
beat. You can't beat it if you're the average hooplehead,
but they don't know that. It's enough that you heard
it can be beat, that's all it takes to get people to play.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:32:26 PM permalink
Touche, PGD.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:34:54 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

Pacman said shuffle installed a thousand games last year. How many of those won some contest?



The point is, how many of them would have done
BETTER if they'd won an important contest. If you
aren't entered, you can't win.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:35:06 PM permalink
Thanks, Thermos! :)

Quote: EvenBob

The point is, how many of them would have done
BETTER if they'd won an important contest. If you
aren't entered, you can't win.


What happens if a good game came in 4th, because it is a sleeper or creeper? that it is not the right venue for a game that is still the right game?
The most beautiful woman in the world need not enter a beauty contest. she'll get quality suitors of her own accord.

Raving is neither irrelevant or make-all and be all. It is a great help for independent game designers. Since (it is believed) that Barbara has signed her game up, she is already in good hands.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:38:33 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

It's sad if you turn into a dreamer of what could have been, depleting resources on a dream, like the movie Being Flynn. It's a story of a man, a writer, who got no installs of his novel, and pursued his dream into bankruptcy, squalor, and madness.
.



Are you talking about Buzz and DJ here? Not fair, Dan,
neither of them has fallen into madness. Yet..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:39:38 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The point is, how many of them would have done
BETTER if they'd won an important contest. If you
aren't entered, you can't win.


Why would it matter? I don't think shuffle has ever participated in this conference, let alone the contest. Do you really think games like ultimate texas holdem or three card poker would have more installs had they been in a contest? No wonder you play roulette. You're not smart enough to count past 36.
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:42:30 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Are you talking about Buzz and DJ here? Not fair, Dan,
neither of them has fallen into madness. Yet..


Not at all. they're winners and survivors in my eyes.
I was talking about the potential of having that happen, I've seen it.


7-card thrill is also a sad story, and a game that was pursued perhaps for too long.

Bob, you don't want to hope for loss and failure - for those who try in good faith, - lest you like feeding on others' sorrow and the macabre.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:43:32 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

Do you really think games like ultimate texas holdem or three card poker would have more installs had they been in a contest? .



We'll never know, will we. Why have contests at all,
why have Super Bowls or Olympics or World Series.
To you they're meaningless, why have winners.
Your inferior public school education is showing
again..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:45:23 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

We'll never know, will we. Why have contests at all,
why have Super Bowls or Olympics or World Series.
To you they're meaningless, why have winners.
Your inferior public school education is showing
again..



No one said they were meaningless, they help as one factor out of many.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:46:56 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



Bob, you don't want to hope for loss and failure - for those who try in good faith, - lest you like feeding on others' sorrow.



Schadenfreude? Never occurred to me. I wonder how
Ace is doing in AC right now....
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:49:25 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

We'll never know, will we. Why have contests at all,
why have Super Bowls or Olympics or World Series.
To you they're meaningless, why have winners.
Your inferior public school education is showing
again..


Speaks the man who uses two periods at the end of each sentence and who committed at least five additional errors of grammar and punctuation.

Like I said, you have Dostoevsky's addiction but not his ability.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:49:52 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

No one said they were meaningless, they help as one factor out of many.



Your own company is offering a giant prize to
whoever wins Raving. I'd say they put one hell of
a lot of confidence in the winning game. No
prizes for just showing up, sorry.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:50:10 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Schadenfreude? Never occurred to me. I wonder how
Ace is doing in AC right now....



Schadenfreude is your illicit delight, you pray to witness some more of it, we know this about you. ;)
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:52:18 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

Speaks the man who uses two periods at the end of each sentence .



I'm talking about your fixation on contests are
meaningless. That's what they teach all the
skulls full of mush now, no winners, lets not
even keep score. We're all equal, blah blah.

No, we're not all equal, not even close.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:53:17 PM permalink
Hey EB, you never admitted you were wrong about a game inventor getting 50% of the royalty revenue.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:55:04 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Schadenfreude is your illicit delight, you pray to witness some more of it, we know this about you. ;)



Afraid it's rather widespread, Dan.

Tests showed schadenfreude, the feeling of joy when seeing someone suffer, is felt by a “significant portion” of people and is most likely to be directed at successful individuals.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/10413782/Schadenfreude-is-a-normal-human-response-study-finds.html
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 4:56:51 PM permalink
It is widespread. Few are saints, many more just human. Many love to see other people fail, or even get some righteous comeuppance.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:02:40 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I'm talking about your fixation on contests are
meaningless. That's what they teach all the
skulls full of mush now, no winners, lets not
even keep score. We're all equal, blah blah.

No, we're not all equal, not even close.


Every sentence you wrote contains errors of logic, grammar and punctuation. You embarrass yourself every time you try to articulate a thought.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:27:41 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

Every sentence you wrote contains errors of logic, grammar and punctuation. You embarrass yourself every time you try to articulate a thought.



I think blocking me is your only option, there's a good lad.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:31:57 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Many love to see other people fail, or even get some righteous comeuppance.



It's a natural human reaction. I remember author
Robert Heinlein pointing out that most humor
involves pain to somebody else. We enjoy laughing
at the discomfort of others. Stand up comics make
a living doing it.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
thecesspit
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:32:02 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I thing blocking me is your only option, there's a good lad.



Mwhahaha.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:43:33 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

[To EvenBob]Every sentence you wrote contains errors of logic, grammar and punctuation. You embarrass yourself every time you try to articulate a thought.


Thermos, Bob is a character. Gotta love him! He's honest. Sometimes he can jump start a thread, but....he is often too busy seeking mirth and joy and delight from others' downfalls to give a cursory edit, when excited. Bob is a Schadenfreude-seeking Sum-B. Okay, what the hell, be proud of it, or just honest, most are.

I was just at a 7-11 where the guy in front of me swiped his debit card, and in front of a line, got REJECTED - insufficient funds [A buzzer could have gone off]! You Broke Ass bastard. This was not enough. The clerk looked at him and just radiated the sentiment with a look of death, "well, YOU BROKE-AZZ BASTARD, - How embarrassing on your butt!. Now get out some cash or hit the road..." (He went to the ATM to play like he's got it, and left.) I thought I was in Germany, home of Schadenfreude. It was Dean Martin Drive & Tropicana, the Chevron station. Needed my smokes. This doesn't happen in Alabama, home of "Bless your heart!"

In the spirit of Bob, I looked at the few in line here. Three out of four had that smirk + raised eye-brow, you know: "BUSTED! Haaaa...Snag, mothxx-fxxker, burn in humiliation for wasting OUR time...." Ha Ha. Serves you the F - right. Really, dude. I felt "poor bastard, broke AND Humiliated." I am actually ashamed I didn't take out a twenty and say "It's all right." I did exactly this two months ago, and the guy was like (in attitude look) - "are you trying to show me up?" - and without any thanks, - he did take the purchase to boot and he walked right out. People looked at me, "You Schmuck!"

People!
If I think any less of them, I will become Bob. God save us.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Thermos
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:51:07 PM permalink
No. He's just a hater. His opinions are worthless.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:51:57 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



In the spirit of Bob, I looked at the few in line here. Three out of four had that smirk + raised eye-brow, you know: "BUSTED!



We're all connected in ways we don't understand. It's
not that we're glad the other guy was hurt, we're just
glad it wasn't us.

I remember Joseph Campbell telling the story of a man
who jumped off a bridge in Hawaii. The cop who was
there jumped at the same time and caught the guy,
and another cop got the first cops legs. When asked
later why he risked his life to save a stranger, the first
cop replied that in an instant he realized the jumper was
him, they were connected somehow, and he had no choice
but to try and save him.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Ibeatyouraces
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:52:51 PM permalink
deleted
DUHHIIIIIIIII HEARD THAT!
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 5:54:01 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

No. He's just a hater. His opinions are worthless.



I get it now, trolling is what you're doing.

Blocked. BuhBye..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
thecesspit
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November 16th, 2013 at 6:11:26 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

I get it now, trolling is what you're doing.



Trolling is just what we call it when someone disagrees with us, isn't it, Bob?

Quote:

Blocked. BuhBye..



Duh.
"Then you can admire the real gambler, who has neither eaten, slept, thought nor lived, he has so smarted under the scourge of his martingale, so suffered on the rack of his desire for a coup at trente-et-quarante" - Honore de Balzac, 1829
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 6:11:42 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

We're all connected in ways we don't understand. It's
not that we're glad the other guy was hurt, we're just
glad it wasn't us.


So there's Nothing here to be glad about it being "not us," even IF it involved comeuppance/just dessert. We're glad for the other's joy, right?

Quote: EvenBob

I remember Joseph Campbell telling the story of a man
who jumped off a bridge in Hawaii. The cop who was
there jumped at the same time and caught the guy,
and another cop got the first cops legs. When asked
later why he risked his life to save a stranger, the first
cop replied that in an instant he realized the jumper was
him, they were connected somehow, and he had no choice
but to try and save him.


Yes.
A visitation by the "Buddha spirit" or an angel, as my wife claims can happen. When needed. Catholics are visited by Mary or a Saint, and Jews get told they're a "Mensch." (Mensch = a man so decent, ethical, and upright that he is a saint.) The jew who tells you kindly is your visitation, - people themselves need to be the angels we otherwise wish to see from the sky.

you get told you're addicted to Schadenfreude, which is how most people really are, but not good.

Here are some post we wish to see from you:

Bob: "You game got 40 installs, when I was taunting you that your game would bomb? And...the income paid off a car and mortgage, and your children go to private/Catholic school for a safe education? Dang - I was hoping you'd bomb and go broke, just to say "Muaw-haa-HAA! BURN! Truly, I share your joy, as it restores hope in my heart that decent, dedicated people working hard on their life's project can rise up and achieve! God Bless You! I share your joy, as your joy is my joy!"

Bob #2: "Your game bombed, - when you have placed so much work, effort, and hope in it?" Yess! Another misguided moron suffers! Delightful! Muaw-Haa HAA! "Tommy, I feel for you. At least you gave it a good faith shot, a college try - and you have nothing to regret or apologize for! If you need any help, you know you can call me anytime - Bob."

Ahh, Seekin' Ze Scahdenfreude, a fool's endeavor.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 6:47:43 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan


Bob: "You game got 40 installs, when I was taunting you that your game would bomb? And...the income paid off a car and mortgage, and your children go to private/Catholic school for a safe education? .



Are you trying to get me kicked out of the Curmudgeon
Society, Dan? We'd all get a schadenfreude tattoo if
there weren't so dang many letters in the word.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 6:56:38 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Are you trying to get me kicked out of the Curmudgeon
Society, Dan?


Yes. Be a Sport here.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
Wizard
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November 16th, 2013 at 7:03:39 PM permalink
Quote: Thermos

No. He's just a hater. His opinions are worthless.



Three-day suspension.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 7:37:26 PM permalink
Quote: Wizard

Three-day suspension.



Bob is a dark grey at times, but never nasty. He may be trying to prod us upwards by playing devil's advocate; best to take it that way. Don't get darker than his grey. He knows that edge. Tricky fence-sitting when responding to him. To his credit, he can be a challenge to answer.

Ad hominem attacks are forbidden here, to include against Bob.

A touch of or challenge, darkness, or treachery is not. As this is a gaming board.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 7:56:29 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

Don't get darker than his grey. He knows that edge. Tricky fence-sitting when responding to him. To his credit, he can be a challenge to answer..



Thanks, Dan. I'd like to say I will be easy
on you from now on, but I can't laugh and
type at the same time. Like you'd believe
it anyway..
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 8:08:54 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

Thanks, Dan. I'd like to say I will be easy
on you from now on, but I can't laugh and
type at the same time. Like you'd believe
it anyway..



To give you some accolades Bob, (some minor, and a few finely-deserved [cough]), your "grey edge knife postings" has both stimulated some threads for the poster to do their very best, - and to induce some to flip you the bird. You prod people over the edge at times, damn you. You could be a police interrogator; you make some crack and shatter and lose it (bad sportsmanship, but I credit here your sense of seeking Shameless Schadenfreude Delight, as it is a bit of your game), and yet others rise. You throw jalapeno peppers into the Fondue pot and you just sit back and watch. You yourself may deserve to be busted, and to take it in as good sport. I enjoy this show at times.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
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November 16th, 2013 at 8:17:45 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

, your "grey edge knife postings" has both stimulated some threads for the poster to do their very best, - and to induce some to flip you the bird..



The more rules a forum has, the more fun it
is to post there. The ones that allow anything
and everything are boring, nobody is challenged
by restraint. Here you have to be on top of your
game, you have to think before you post. Novel
idea, I hope it catches on.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Lucky
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November 16th, 2013 at 8:18:46 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan

... this is not always the case. Often, when a distributor leases IP, they still name or approve of the game's name, and then trademark that name. Whenever they don't happen to own the IP, (just lease it), - they can still trademark to own the brand name. I own the IP for EZ Pai Gow, but not DEQ's trade name for it.


Thanks, Dan, for clarifying how a distributor can own the mark while leasing the the remainder of a game's IP, using your personal anecdotal example. Makes sense.
"Success consists of going from failure to failure without loss of enthusiasm." -- Winston Churchill
Paigowdan
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November 16th, 2013 at 8:24:45 PM permalink
Quote: EvenBob

The more rules a forum has, the more fun it
is to post there. The ones that allow anything
and everything are boring, nobody is challenged
by restraint. Here you have to be on top of your
game, you have to think before you post. Novel
idea, I hope it catches on.



You are testing our mettle and metal here at times, and for your sport (and ours), which at some times is actually necessary here, I think.

Other times Bob, you're just plain old goosing us repetitively and for too damn long. A barely legal outlaw. I hope to Christ you own a Harley.

You deal few push hands.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
EvenBob
EvenBob
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Joined: Jul 18, 2010
November 16th, 2013 at 9:22:48 PM permalink
Quote: Paigowdan



Other times Bob, you're just plain old goosing us repetitively and for too damn long. A barely legal outlaw. I hope to Christ you own a Harley.



In fact I do have a Harley, there's a thread about it somewhere.
Tomorrow might be the last riding day of the year, 68 degrees.
Oh well, it just makes spring getting here all the sweeter.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
Buzzard
Buzzard
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Joined: Oct 28, 2012
November 18th, 2013 at 8:53:22 AM permalink
TODAYS THE DAY !
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
Paigowdan
Paigowdan
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Joined: Apr 28, 2010
November 18th, 2013 at 8:58:46 AM permalink
Yes, starting 3PM for registration, and VIP reception at 6PM.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
CrystalMath
CrystalMath
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Joined: May 10, 2011
November 18th, 2013 at 8:59:04 AM permalink
Quote: Buzzard

TODAYS THE DAY !



Can't wait. I'll be in Vegas in 4 hrs.
I heart Crystal Math.
Buzzard
Buzzard
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Joined: Oct 28, 2012
November 18th, 2013 at 9:23:14 AM permalink
You did not have to tell me that GRRRRR

But post a report, OK
Shed not for her the bitter tear Nor give the heart to vain regret Tis but the casket that lies here, The gem that filled it Sparkles yet
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