2013 Raving's Table Games Conference: who is going?
This is the American way, always optimistic...Quote: EvenBobInventors usually overestimate
the value of their invention but about 1000%.
One is Derek Webb who does not post here. Is Roger Snow in this category? He does post for SHFL. Who could be the 3rd one? Not Dan, because he post here. Robert S.?Quote: PaigowdanI know three guys in this category, and it's no one who posts here. And BOTH parties - inventor and manufacturer will agree to this deal. Three Card Poker earns $900 to $1,500 a month, times a thousand games. Derek Webb lives well, and he deserves it, God Bless Him. But it would take a real manufacturer with a real sales force to accomplish this type of dominance, so you sign.
I'm talking about the following:
Mark Yoseloff, creator of Mississippi Stud.
Robin Powell and TJ Tan, creators of EZ Baccarat.
Derek Webb, creator of Three Card Poker and 21+3.
John Breeding, creator of Let it Ride.
David Schugar, creator of Casino War.
Paul Olmahandro and Eric Abbott, creators of Texas Hold'em Bonus.
John Wicks, creator of Perfect Pairs.
Andrew McDonald, creator of 7 Up Baccarat.
Stanley Ko, creator of Buster Blackjack.
Matthew Tang, creator of Asia Poker.
Rob Saucier, creator of Lucky Ladies.
Franklin Daines, creator of Lucky Lucky.
Perry Stassi, creator of Fire Bet.
These men, and a few others, are responsible for the games that generate 95% of the royalty revenue in this business.
http://www.sfgate.com/thingstodo/article/Derek-Webb-man-behind-3-card-poker-3286093.php
With a great game, no less.
Makes me wonder if I shouldn't have taken that 35cent offer after all.
Seriously, I think Stacey Perry of Mao Gaming with the game she invented STREAK should get honorable mention.
I know Blackhawk is not Vegas but Streak dominated all other side bets for 20 years in Colorado.
Even today 6 of the 12 basic Blackjack tables in Ameristar ( the leader in Blackhawk 40% market share ) have Streak as a side bet. And lit colored signage that says " STREAK BLACKJACK " as though that were the basic game. Like Derek said " You have to wear many hats if you are going it alone.
Mark changed my opinion of lawyers about 10 years ago. I gave him $1,000 as a retainer for patent work. A few months later my adult daughter Melanie started hearing voices and my finances went south. I emailed Mark to stop and send me a bill for what I owed him and a payment schedule. I am positive I was in the negative at that point in time. Instead of a bill, I got a $500 check in the mail.
Quote: BuzzardAWWWWWW Might as well mention Roger M Snow has 123 patents. And most if not all have Mark Litman as the attorney.
Mark changed my opinion of lawyers about 10 years ago. I gave him $1,000 as a retainer for patent work. A few months later my adult daughter Melanie started hearing voices and my finances went south. I emailed Mark to stop and send me a bill for what I owed him and a payment schedule. I am positive I was in the negative at that point in time. Instead of a bill, I got a $500 check in the mail.
Yeah, I think Roger's left out himself only because he does participate here, and is not willing to toot his own horn. He's right at the top of any objective list of people who contribute to game designs and encourage new work, not just in his position with SHFL, but by example.
Quote: PacmanIt's too bad that some of the most successful game inventors do not post here. All could benefit from their wisdom and experience.
.....
Perhaps.
With the exception of you, Roger, (and a few others), the sad fact of the matter is the majority of these men are either one-hit wonders after a big hit, and are basically retired, - or working in other areas of the industry, and have not followed up with further great hits. A real Deer Hunter/Michael Cimino syndrome for some, - or it was just on to other things, for others. Others had not such big hits, or just side bets (Asia Poker, Casino war, etc.) all fine games, - while Derek Webb and you really dominate the install base.
Some, a minority, are still producing today and have multiple titles (including you, me, Stanley, and Rob), but most simply aren't. One might assume if they're well off, they're perfecting their golf game or traveling and focusing on their families, they're too busy - or just not interested in help budding developers at this forum. Why should they be in their lives now? That is their call.
So thank goodness for men like you, Roger, who do contribute here.
Some of these men still speak at conventions, with Robin Powell speaking at Raving.
Quote: PacmanThese men, and a few others, are responsible for the games that generate 95% of the royalty revenue in this business.
Yes, - and the list is evolving and changing over time, where those who current work and achieve will slowly replace those who retire and fade - allowing the new designers here to enter the fray. And fray is a good word, as it is a very competitive business.
Keep in mind that at one time, Frank Sinatra and the Rat Pack dominated popular music.
Quote: PacmanIt's too bad that some of the most successful game inventors do not post here.
Mark Yoseloff, creator of Mississippi Stud.
Robin Powell and TJ Tan, creators of EZ Baccarat.
Derek Webb, creator of Three Card Poker and 21+3.
John Breeding, creator of Let it Ride.
David Schugar, creator of Casino War.
Paul Olmahandro and Eric Abbott, creators of Texas Hold'em Bonus.
John Wicks, creator of Perfect Pairs.
Andrew McDonald, creator of 7 Up Baccarat.
Stanley Ko, creator of Buster Blackjack.
Matthew Tang, creator of Asia Poker.
Rob Saucier, creator of Lucky Ladies.
Franklin Daines, creator of Lucky Lucky.
Perry Stassi, creator of Fire Bet.
These men, and a few others, are responsible for the games that generate 95% of the royalty revenue in this business.
That's disheartening. EZ Bac, TCP, Let it Ride, War, maybe Mis Stud,
have been around for ages. The rest are mostly side bets, can they
really be considered games? These represent 95% of the royalty
revenue? That doesn't say much for the new games that have come
along in the last 5 years, does it. It makes my point that to have a
game that really makes it is harder and harder, if not impossible.
Take Mark Yoseloff. Not only does his new game "Big Raise Stud Poker" have 15 installs (and growing), but he also teaches a class at UNLV on casino product design. To get better, his students are studying the work of those who built this industry.
Every person on the list--plus a few not on it--provided me and continue to provide me guidance and inspiration, either directly or by example. Any aspiring game inventor could learn from these folks.
P.S.
Matthew 7:15.
Quote: EvenBobThat's disheartening. EZ Bac, TCP, Let it Ride, War, maybe Mis Stud,
have been around for ages. The rest are mostly side bets, can they
really be considered games? These represent 95% of the royalty
revenue?
Roger was talking about royalties,
Some of these games will go the way of Deuces Wild and Dealer Bluff, with other, newer games joining the list. Ten years ago Deuces Wild was in 50% of the valley's casinos, and would have been on his list if written not too long ago. Few of those games are on an upswing. Many games on that list are in a downward spiral, and some aren't, with some omissions of new games that are on an upswing, and are getting market share and royalties.
Again, (and to disagree with Roger if he were implying otherwise), his list is a static snapshot, which while having major players, includes both minor players and fading, non-active players. It's like looking at a single frame of a motion picture reel, it excludes a time-lapse image that reveals the movement. Granted, while things play out in months and years at a glacial pace in the industry, that roster is in motion - hence the reason for conventions like G2E and Raving Table Games, and even the Game Inventors' Corner here at the WizardofVegas.
Quote: PaigowdanTen years ago Deuces Wild was in 50% of the valley's casinos.
Half? You are way off. At its zenith, that game was in maybe 25 casinos around the country.
Quote: ThermosHalf? You are way off. At its zenith, that game was in maybe 25 casinos around the country.
That sounds about right to me. We had an agreement with the inventor for a share of revenues (patent license), and we never saw revenues commensuate with a game that was in half the casinos in Las Vegas ... Unless my buddy Tom was charging them a dollar a day! ;-)
My point was that this forum, while very good, would provide even more value for budding game designers if some of the most successful ones in the industry posted here.
I had dinner last year with Geoff Hall and Derek Webb, and I learned more between the salad and the dessert than I could have ever imagined. These men are brilliant.
Quote: PacmanNot only does his new game "Big Raise Stud Poker" have 15 installs .
Is that good for a game that's been around for
over a year? 15 doesn't sound like very many.
There was thread about it here last month. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/other-games/15374-big-raise-stud-poker/
Didn't seem very popular. Babs said:
"I played this for about 1/2 hour while at G2E; it's on the end of the carnival games at the Venetian, near UTH and Crazy 4. I hated it; found it a complete black hole for money, all forced bets, and about as boring as a reverse let-it-ride and very similar. I would give it a solid pass-over rating."
Quote: PacmanThe only people on this list that would consider themselves retired are Webb, Breeding and Omohundro. The rest are active.
Take Mark Yoseloff. Not only does his new game "Big Raise Stud Poker" have 15 installs (and growing), but he also teaches a class at UNLV on casino product design. To get better, his students are studying the work of those who built this industry.
This is very fine. He is doing good work in another area of the industry, while keeping sharp and active in game design. All good.
Webb and Breeding are retired and well.
Paul Omohundro works in other areas of this industry, and is a talent.
Quote: PacmanEvery person on the list--plus a few not on it--proviced me and continue to provide me guidance and inspiration, either directly or by example. Any aspiring game inventor could learn from these folks.
Yes, absolutely, - they are all gems, and they deserve their success and installs. Some are huge hits, other are less so, but all on the list made it in their time. Bless them.
This forum, specifically in this Game Inventor's Corner, is a bit like a "Community Exchange," a true non-profit, non-salaried effort that relies on good will and service without recompense to share. They on the list have given you guidance and inspiration, true, but not us here in their absence, except through you.
Quote: pacmanP.S.
Matthew 7:15.
This is the Biblical quote Roger's referring to:
Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?…
I am not certain of what Roger wishes to say via a Biblical reference, although it touches aspects of treachery that may occur in any industry.
Quote: ThermosHalf? You are way off. At its zenith, that game was in maybe 25 casinos around the country.
No. It was a money-maker that did have a good install base at its Zenith - for a while - then collapsed. You push it out and pump it up and hope it stays.
Different games have very different life cycles, like comparing a 12-year old cat to a fifty year old elephant.
In terms of staying power, Three Card Poker is inexhaustible.
Of course the jury is still out ... although it would appear one juror knows how she's gonna vote ;-).
I'm apparently doing a lousy job communicating, so I will decelearate a bit: Mark Yoseloff is one of the most successful game developers in history. His game Mississippi Stud is the No. 3 royalty-generating game in the industry (behind Three Card Poker and Ultimate Texas Hold'em). He remains an active developer, and his latest game shows promise, albeit in the early stages of rollout.
And the point is--wait for it--this forum would benefit from his insights, and the insights of others on that list.
Quote: PaigowdanNo. It was a money-maker that did have a good install base at its Zenith - for a while - then collapsed. You push it out and pump it up and hope it stays.
Different games have very different life cycles, like comparing a 12-year old cat to a fifty year old elephant.
In terms of staying power, Three Card Poker is inexhaustible.
Deuces Wild Hold'em Fold'em was never in half the casinos in Las Vegas. I'm not trying to make a federal case out of this, but facts are facts. It was in a few Station casinos, Fitzgerald's, the Lady Luck and maybe a place or two on the Strip.
Quote: Pacman
And the point is--wait for it--this forum would benefit from his insights, and the insights of others on that list.
Yes, absolutely.
But "would benefit' is a lot different than "actually benefit" - in the sense that they do NOT participate here with struggling game designers here.
It would be invaluable for the game developers here.
Quote: ThermosDeuces Wild Hold'em Fold'em was never in half the casinos in Las Vegas. I'm not trying to make a federal case out of this, but facts are facts. It was in a few Station casinos, Fitzgerald's, the Lady Luck and maybe a place or two on the Strip.
Okay, fine. I was told that it was, and from reliable sources. I felt they were reliable. It had a good heyday, then faded.
Quote: ThermosStreak Blackjack works in Colorado for one reason, the max bet is very low. In any other market, if you want to capitalize on a winning streak, you could simply parlay your bets. You just like Mrs. Mao because she's cute, Buzz. ;-)
Hey. limits are $100 now and Stacey is the big game at Ameristar.
Quote: BuzzardHey. limits are $100 now and Stacey is the big game at Ameristar.
That's interesting. How does it work? Maybe it's different than what I saw in Mississippi.
Quote: PacmanBig Raise Stud Poker debuted back in February. Since then, we have installed 17 tables and suffered two removals..
Losing 2 out of 17 is 12% of its installs. Is that typical, to
make progress, yet lose 12% on a regular basis? At that
rate it would take a few years to get enough installs to
where you were making real money. And this happens to
about 1% of the games that make in onto the floor in the
first place? (1 out of 100)
Quote: EvenBobLosing 2 out of 17 is 12% of its installs. Is that typical, to
make progress, yet lose 12% on a regular basis? At that
rate it would take a few years to get enough installs to
where you were making real money. And this happens to
about 1% of the games that make in onto the floor in the
first place? (1 out of 100)
Bob, I think you may have a strange concept of "real money". If I had a game and just made $100 (20% of lease amount) per install and had just 30 installs in the Country, I would be making $3,000 per month or $36,000 per year for basically nothing.
Never having to work again is a pie in the sky dream. Same as making it to the Major Leagues when you are playing High School baseball. Same as wanting to fly in a space shuttle when you love astronomy as a kid. It's not a reality that most designers are even contemplating. Praying for... maybe? But everyone knows it's not reality.
$36,000 a year to supplement your current income is not all that bad. Having that game on your resume to get a quicker shot into the meeting room for your next one and maybe even getting a better job out of it are other benefits.
I think you're missing the boat on 99% of games thinking that if they aren't multi-million dollar games they are no good. That's not a fair way to judge them.
ZCore13
Quote: EvenBobIs that good for a game that's been around for
over a year? 15 doesn't sound like very many.
There was thread about it here last month. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/other-games/15374-big-raise-stud-poker/
Didn't seem very popular. Babs said:
"I played this for about 1/2 hour while at G2E; it's on the end of the carnival games at the Venetian, near UTH and Crazy 4. I hated it; found it a complete black hole for money, all forced bets, and about as boring as a reverse let-it-ride and very similar. I would give it a solid pass-over rating."
And I stand by what I said. I lost over $400 in that half hour, betting minimums, and betting as aggressively as the game needed to be to play properly; it's a high-risk high-reward game, and my variance was not good that day. My sister-in-law-to-be played the same game, same scale of bets, stood up +100, and enjoyed herself. To each their own, I think, and there will be/are plenty who will enjoy it.
I don't enjoy Let It Ride, Three Card Poker, or Caribbean Stud either, though there was a time when each of them was my game of choice. My games for now are Fortune PaiGow when I want a long, interesting game, or Ultimate Texas Hold-'Em, when I want volatility and aggressive play. My preferred games are too complex and intimidating for a large group of table players, including the rest of my family, but they both are doing fine even though they only appeal to some of us.
I think there's lots of room in the industry for fresh games, and there's a healthy response to that interest. I like very much the open-door policy the distributors maintain, and that they're willing to look at everything in all stages of development. I shilled UTH all the way across the Atlantic on the Epic this past April because I like a full table, and the only tables getting action were LIR, 3CP, and BJ. There were 3 people at the table the first night at sea; me and two people who'd never played it. The house let me help teach it as people came along, and by the last few days of the voyage the table was full 12-16 hours a day, mostly with people who had learned how good a game it was from me, and who in their turn will play and share it with others down the road. That will help build its presence in a lot of casinos, which means there will be more places I can find it. All to the good, as far as I'm concerned.
Quote: beachbumbabs
I think there's lots of room in the industry for fresh games, and there's a healthy response to that interest.
And I disagree. Nobody gets out of their car at a
casino hoping there's a bunch of new games
inside. They not only want the opposite, they want
their old game to be EXACTLY where it was last
time they were there. Even I get upset when they
move the roulette tables around.
The Wiz's game is a good example. He said on the
radio show they installed it in a 2nd casino and took
out a 3CP table. The Wiz's game is a derivative of
3CP, yet they refused to play it. They complained so
much that they had to reinstall the old game.
There is no 'healthy response' in the industry to new
games, people don't like change, they have to be dragged
kicking and screaming into it. If there was a healthy
response, more games would make it and they would
be clamoring for others. They aren't.
Quote: Zcore13Bob, I think you may have a strange concept of "real money".
ZCore13
I don't know about strange, but real money is
$200K+ a year, anything less is just a living.
Which is OK, but with a casino game it won't
last, it has an expiration date. That's why being
an AP is better, it has legs. Lonnnnng legs..
Quote: EvenBobI don't know about strange, but real money is
$200K+ a year, anything less is just a living.
Which is OK, but with a casino game it won't
last, it has an expiration date. That's why being
an AP is better, it has legs. Lonnnnng legs..
Disagree.
A good game (like 3CP, PGP, etc.) has long legs. Bob, you yourself had said games like Let It Ride, Caribbean Stud, et al had been around for ages.
An AP player can get burnt out pretty quickly, in the book and toast.
Quote: PaigowdanDisagree.
A good game (like 3CP, PGP, etc.) has long legs. Bob, you yourself had said games like Let It Ride, Caribbean Stud, et al had been around for ages.
Why do I have to go over the same ground over
and over. You guys are living on past glories.
Those games made it when there was limited
competition, and before the casino explosion.
They got grandfathered in.
Those days are long gone, there will be no more
mega hit games, no matter what you keep telling
game inventors.
No more Cokes, or McDonalds, or KFC's, where the
brand is a household name worldwide. Like you said,
the best you can hope for now is a nibble in the
market, too many copycats, too many wannabee's.
Quote: PaigowdanAn AP player can get burnt out pretty quickly, in the book and toast.
Sure, a ding dong flash in the pan will. But there are
plenty who never get caught and never will because
they're smarter than the casinos will ever be.
Quote: Zcore13Bob, I think you may have a strange concept of "real money". If I had a game and just made $100 (20% of lease amount) per install and had just 30 installs in the Country, I would be making $3,000 per month or $36,000 per year for basically nothing.
Well, yes and no, and forgive me for saying it is not totally easy money.
To create a game that gets to 30 installs is actually a huge challenge filled with work, pain, and expense. (But to mention, if you have 30 stable installs, it could be 200 stable installs with a sales force. A new game is not an unreasonable endeavor for someone to consider.)
If you come up with a game gimmick, or see something in a game that can be done anew, it's because you may have some, - if not a lot, of experience as a gambler or dealer where you really thought about things and put it to use. That experience represents a good bit of buy-ins, or a lot of work dealing already. By contrast, the guy from survivor, "Rupert Boneham," hit a pay day with his antics on Survivor, and may have thought "PFFT. I'm freaking awesome. And I play cards. Why don't I whip up another hit in my life, and become the next Derek Webb or Roger Snow with my own casino game. A cinch." I believe he may have honestly believed this, and he has every right to give this a go, and is probably an awesome guy in real life. But this easy scenario isn't the case for us mere mortals, - though easy for Rupert post-Survivor. He gets some investors (easy for him), sketches the game, gets math, patent, and production work done by pros, and Presto, Rupert's Island Draw hits the streets. He gets it approved in NV, and gets it installed at the Statue of Liberty of new game tryouts, the Golden Nugget. It bombs but it may have brought people to the casino. (I wish I had the cash that he expended on this effort.) And he has every right to say "I gave this a go in my life without apology." Think of a movie star who releases a new perfume or a clothing line, versus a high-school teacher or secretary who seriously gives such an endeavor a go, then you see the real work and real odds...so the income is not gravy, but the results of real dues.
The real story from a real game designer, as Buzzard quoted:
" Webb, who splits his time these days between Las Vegas and Darby, England, likens the process of getting casinos to license the game to "pulling teeth," and notes that it was one of the toughest challenges of his career. "
Quote: ZCore13Never having to work again is a pie in the sky dream. Same as making it to the Major Leagues when you are playing High School baseball. Same as wanting to fly in a space shuttle when you love astronomy as a kid. It's not a reality that most designers are even contemplating. Praying for... maybe? But everyone knows it's not reality.
Yet some do make it, and it is generally those who have put in their dues. There are major leaguers, astronauts, rich screen writers, etc. who did get there. You don't go from being a high school teacher or clerk to an astronaut, but a "civilian" can become a screenwriter, a game designer, or a novelist, if dues and work and competitiveness and inspiration are involved.
I will say it is better to give it a go, and give it an authentic shot, then to not try, - if one's evaluation of his or her efforts and chances are properly evaluated.
Quote: EvenBob
There is no 'healthy response' in the industry to new
games, people don't like change, they have to be dragged
kicking and screaming into it. If there was a healthy
response, more games would make it and they would
be clamoring for others. They aren't.
This is totally incorrect. There is a reasonable portion of players that not only welcome but prefer a variation rather than the standard game.
I've had a lot of players who have stated to me that they have more fun and enjoyment playing some of my Blackjack games rather than the regular game.
I don't expect my games to end up being more popular than regular Blackjack. However, if a small % of players prefer playing my games, or at least adding them to their play-list, then I get enough player interaction to keep the game on the floor. The casino is quite happy to offer their players a choice of table games as they do on the slot machines which are ever-changing.
There will always be a nucleus of novice players who will not touch a non-regular game. Thoughts such as "Why would a casino put this game on the floor if it didn't make them more money than the regular game?" deter some players. Others may simply not like the changes that have been made to the game or may not take the time to learn the new rules of the game.
IMO, if a new game can gain enough exposure and is placed into numerous casinos then this has an added knock-on effect as:-
i) novice players will feel that its not a one-off 'take your money' game
ii) casinos, who have a shaky hold % at the start, will relax more from having numerous results to compare with
iii) word of mouth, from fellow players, gains more momentum
iv) easier to sell to other states with a list of results from current installations
v) neighboring casinos are more compelled to install the game to keep up with player demand in that area
Of course it's easier said than done :-)
Buz, Why is Stacey P's company named "MAO"? I thought it was a Chinese company under the leadership of Chairman Mao.Quote: BuzzardHey. limits are $100 now and Stacey is the big game at Ameristar.
Quote: SwitchThere is a reasonable portion of players that not only welcome
Reasonable? Meaning small. If it was large, there
would be more games that make it, and the quote
from Roger and Dan is '1 in 100'. That's an 'ice
cubes chance in hell' odds. Notice that everybody
in the business is enthusiastic, yet always has
qualifiers like 'it's easier said than done'.
You have a business that's chock full of superstitious
people on both sides: The casino and the players.
They don't understand how the business works, so
both sides get anxious when the status quo is messed
with. Don't rock the boat, don't fix it if it ain't broke,
leave well enough alone, these are the cliches players
and casinos live by.
I would bet the casino is more superstitious than the
players. By far.
This is not a zero-sum game. SHFL, for exmple, has netted nearly 1,000 installs of games and side bets the past 12 months. Galaxy, DEQ, TCS, et al didn't lose 1,000 games and side bets. In fact, I'm sure all those companies had sizable gains in that period.
Quote: PacmanVery well said, Geoff.
This is not a zero-sum game. SHFL, for exmple, has netted nearly 1,000 installs of games .
By netted, you mean 1000 over and above the number
that was pulled? Of the 1000, how many will be gone
in 6 months.
We will no doubt lose some of these games in the next six months, but our overall net number will remain overwhelmingly positive.
In my 13.5 years with SHFL, I think we have had eight negative months.
You're a smart guy, EB. You're just a bit stubborn, that's all. ;-)
Quote: PacmanYes, we have 1,000 more games and side bets collecting royalties today than we did 12 months ago.
On your site I count about 75 games and side bets.
That's an average of 13 installs per item per year,
at 1000 installs. Is that a fair assessment? Some
will do better, some will do worse, of course.
1. 209
2. 161
3. 115
4. 105
5. 69
Quote: PacmanI can't disclose specific details, but I will say that our top five games and side bets in the past year had the following net installs:
1. 209
2. 161
3. 115
4. 105
5. 69
Interesting. I must say those are pretty impressive numbers, Pacman.
Quote: PacmanI can't disclose specific details, but I will say that our top five games and side bets in the past year had the following net installs:
1. 209
2. 161
3. 115
4. 105
5. 69
To put it another way, the 70 that were left
split the remaining 350, for an average of
5 installs each. This certainly fits the 'feast or famine'
image of the business you and Dan are always
alluding to.
Quote: PacmanIt's even more extreme than that.
Meaning half (or more) of the games got no installs at all.
Totally understandable, given a marketplace that's more
set in its ways than the Catholic Church. I said earlier,
I have never liked new games. They're only there because
the casino thinks they will separate you from your money
even faster, and who needs that. The few that I've played
over the years all left a bad taste in my mouth.
Every one of the anchor games is still there because they
can be played with strategies and have stood the test of
time. They weren't fads for a reason.
Quote: EvenBobMeaning half (or more) of the games got no installs at all.
Totally understandable, given a marketplace that's more
set in its ways than the Catholic Church. I said earlier,
I have never liked new games.
Bob, this is fine. I also play plain ol' dice and love it to death. But this is opinion, and it's okay to have a view on this -but install numbers don't lie.
Quote: EvenBobThey're only there because
the casino thinks they will separate you from your money
even faster, and who needs that.
No, not really. Some new games coming out have razor-thin house edges, on both sides and main bets, and you're praying "Please don't dump!" as the dealers are being trained for an install.
It's not more money per se, but holding enough while players are demanding, or at least heavily patronizing a new game. Trust me, 40%+ table holds on new games scare the crap out of manufacturers. No one's out to rook anybody, even though you don't believe it.
Quote: EvenBobThe few that I've played
over the years all left a bad taste in my mouth.
I'm a crusty old dog, but I try - and often like - new stuff.
Quote: EvenBobEvery one of the anchor games is still there because they
can be played with strategies and have stood the test of
time. They weren't fads for a reason.
Same with new games, none are built to be fads, just may end up as fads. Three Card Poker is no fad, neither is Pai Gow. Craps and Blackjack were fads when Faro and Hazard ruled the gambling halls. Do not think the new games are from a Bingo night.
Quote: EvenBobAnd I disagree. Nobody gets out of their car at a
casino hoping there's a bunch of new games
inside. They not only want the opposite, they want
their old game to be EXACTLY where it was last
time they were there. Even I get upset when they
move the roulette tables around.
The Wiz's game is a good example. He said on the
radio show they installed it in a 2nd casino and took
out a 3CP table. The Wiz's game is a derivative of
3CP, yet they refused to play it. They complained so
much that they had to reinstall the old game.
What about when Three-Card Poker was a new game?
Quote: PacmanI had dinner last year with Geoff Hall and Derek Webb, and I learned more between the salad and the dessert than I could have ever imagined. These men are brilliant.
I am looking forward to hearing Geoff at Raving,.....he is a very smart guy!
Quote: Switchi) novice players will feel that its not a one-off 'take your money' game
ii) casinos, who have a shaky hold % at the start, will relax more from having numerous results to compare with
iii) word of mouth, from fellow players, gains more momentum
iv) easier to sell to other states with a list of results from current installations
v) neighboring casinos are more compelled to install the game to keep up with player demand in that area
Geoff, I hope this is your message for the DTG's at Raving......The table game business grows and is better for the properties and the developers of the world if TG Management is on board with promoting and supporting new games.
We all know that deal staff can make or break a game based on how it is presented to players....the more properties that decide to be like Golden Nugget or Casino Royale or even The M, recently with HCF, and say look we think this new game is a good one and we can make more money if we get this game to be accepted and part of our players list of games they come to play here...let's educate the staff not only on how to deal it but what makes it fun and how to play it correctly.....let's tell them to really sell this game to players because it is a good product and provides a new entertainment experience for the player....we need to continue to offer new and better experiences to keep our players coming back to spend their entertainment dollars with us.
That objective makes them more profitable and helps the industry provide more alternatives for the spectrum of table game players from novice to advanced.....if they want to slow the encroachment of slots on the pit, they had better be innovating in the pit.....and not only with new strategy laden games, but beginner games like Casino War & Babs One for the Money.....High Card Flush fits here as well and TCP is the king of simple concept that beginners can play....if the goal is to increase the number of table game players, we better have some easy to learn and play games to start new players out on......slots are winning because anyone can push a button and hope the outcome is a win.....same with Roulette.....but tell a new player to belly up to BJ or Craps or even PGP.....that is asking a lot...."thanks, I think I'll just mash buttons over here for a while"
Quote: Paradigm...slots are winning because anyone can push a button and hope the outcome is a win.....same with Roulette.."
No No NO! People don't play slots or roulette because it's easy,
just push a button or bet on a number. They play because they
can win a lot of money VERY FAST, all in one fell swoop. They
can hit a jackpot on a slot, or put $5 on a number in roulette
and win $175. It has nothing to do with pushing a button, it
has to do with lots of payout for little input.
Table games can't match the instant gratification of slots. And
as the dumbing down of society continues, the slots will take
over more and more of the casino and table games less and
less. The anchor games will always be there, but the space
for new games will get smaller and smaller every year.
