2013 Raving's Table Games Conference: who is going?

Quote: EvenBob

Ah, but 3CP made it before the 'explosion' of new casinos
in the last 10 years. It's from the mid 90's and was already
a hit when SHFL bought it in 2002, 12 years ago. It was
grandfathered in, so to speak, in a lot of new casinos.

That will never happen again, there will never be a new
Coca Cola that sweeps the old one away. We have the
mainstays of BJ, poker, roulette, bac and craps, and they
have been around literally forever, as far as the casino
business goes. They will always make money, just like Coke
will always be number 1.

Companies like SHFL and Galaxy are mostly in the business of
hype, not in giving us new games. We don't want new games,
so they have to convince us we do.

That's probably what Blockbuster thought when they were the dominator of the category. Never is a long time.

By the way, hype doesn't pay the bills. Those companies put out games that make casinos money. Triple Attack Blackjack didn't make it in the long run but it definitely more than paid for itself.

You seem to think a game has to be around 10+ years to serve its purpose. It doesn't. a couple of years is a success and profitable for everyone involved. Ultimate Texas Holdem is a pretty strong game that came out more recently. Games come and go, but they still make money. And a VERY rare few pass the test of time.


ZCore13

Quote: Paigowdan

But Bob does have a point - some of the Raving winners bombed

2 out of 3 did, and the jury is still out on last
years winner. If it doesn't flop in the next
year, Raving has a 50% success rate. Not
exactly stellar for all the hype involved.

Quote: Paigowdan

the next hit game doesn't have to be the next Coca-Cola, .

But that's what it's always promoted as, the next 3CP
or the next hula hoop. Developers have game inventors
convinced they could be richer than the dreams of
avarice, with just the right game. And it's just not likely,
and certainly not true.

Quote: Zcore13

You seem to think a game has to be around 10+ years to serve its purpose.

Yes and no. I like games like EZ Bac because it's
a game improvement and not entirely new. It has
a chance to be around for a very long time, forever
maybe. I play it whenever I see it and want to play
bac. That's why I like M21, it improves BJ in many
ways and is not an entirely new game. I can see it
catching on and being an important addition to any
casino.

Quote: Zcore13

Games come and go, but they still make money. And a VERY rare few pass the test of time.
ZCore13

That's because they deviate too much from the base
casino games. There's a reason BJ, poker, roulette,
craps and bac have been around for so long, and
move from generation to generation so smoothly.

Triple Attack Blackjack is still in Harrah's LV as of 3 weeks ago. Don't know where else it might be.

Quote: beachbumbabs

Triple Attack Blackjack is still in Harrah's LV as of 3 weeks ago. Don't know where else it might be.

Almost nowhere. Point being it won Raving and was
a big flop, just like Fortune Teller Blackjack. That
game was hyped at Raving as 'the most profitable
game in gaming history for the house.' And where
is it today.

Quote: EvenBob

[on the fact that some of Raving's winners failed....]"2 out of 3 did, and the jury is still out on last
years winner. If it doesn't flop in the next
year, Raving has a 50% success rate. Not
exactly stellar for all the hype involved.

Uh, this is a damn good track record. Beats Ted William's batting average out of the gate.
When you consider that even a well-refined new game that is yet to be released has a small chance, then a 50% odds-on shot is awesome. Good exposure, right audience, possible press, all the right variables at Raving - a great place to display a new game.

Quote: EvenBob

But that's what it's always promoted as, the next 3CP
or the next hula hoop.

Really, there is extremely little hype.
1. In these current days of WizardofOdds.com, DiscountGambling.net, and APheat.net, Mike's math ( & co.) strips you naked.
2. Sales rep expose operators to review new games. In this heavily regulated industry, you don't pull the wool over any operator's eyes, you don't think about it.

Quote: EvenBob

Developers have game inventors
convinced they could be richer than the dreams of
avarice, with just the right game. And it's just not likely,
and certainly not true.

Oh, really now?
First of all, the push is to develop games in-house. Why make 70%-80% when you can make 100%, and not have to worry about Royalties, performance requirements, etc., for less money?

Secondly, game distributors and manufacturers evaluators don't tell new game submitters that their games "are just like totally awesome dude - and you can be a millionaire!" or anything to that effect.
If a game has merit, and has a shot, we say that it has merit, and has possibilities, and then we negotiate. Many game designers say, "You mean I DON'T get a million dollar signing bonus and 60% of the gross, and get like a Thousand games out overnight??!!" - so their expectations were there own fault.
You see, new game inventors themselves have dreams of easy money and becoming rich, when in reality, it is not only a longshot, but a pretty brutal and arduous path if the game has a chance at all. NONE of the distributors or manufacturers are the Statue of Liberty over here.

Thirdly, we're so busy with compliance work, production work, changes to existing games, and our own new game development work, that we have to schedule new game demos, - and yes, a multi-submitter showcase like Raving is a help, not only to display our own wares, but to review the external and independent games can be considered for signing, if appropriate.

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: EvenBob

[on the fact that some of Raving's winners failed....]"2 out of 3 did, and the jury is still out on last
years winner. If it doesn't flop in the next
year, Raving has a 50% success rate. Not
exactly stellar for all the hype involved.

Uh, this is a damn good track record. .

And when the 2012 winner flops, you will
say 1 out of 4 ain't bad. I get it, Dan.

High Card Flush will not flop. It's a very good game. It will replace some old carnival games on the floor and take some space from an extra Pai Gow or Three Card not doing enough business.

Will it be around for 10 or 20 years, we will see. But it's the best new game I've seen in the last 5 years at least.


ZCore13

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Paigowdan

Quote: EvenBob

[on the fact that some of Raving's winners failed....]"2 out of 3 did, and the jury is still out on last
years winner. If it doesn't flop in the next
year, Raving has a 50% success rate. Not
exactly stellar for all the hype involved.

Uh, this is a damn good track record. .

And when the 2012 winner flops, you will
say 1 out of 4 ain't bad. I get it, Dan.

No you don't.
I think both High Card Flush and Player's Choice-21 are very fine and are very well done; one has taken hold, and the other is doing well in trial and introduction.

One out of a hundred new games, or, for that matter, one out of a hundred new screenplays, one out of a hundred new toy designs, etc., make it.
To compare this new game show to The Academy Awards of box office winners is a stretch.

Raving is a small new game introduction conference, and the best in show is simply announced and offered an install. Raving's job is not to rubber-stamp $100 Million dollar proven films, it is to give new table games design some exposure to some Table Games directors, and your constant and relentless nay-saying is both unhelpful and absolutely irrelevant.

High Card Flush's success was not entirely due to Raving's show. (Perhpas, Galaxy and Zcore have more to do with it) HCF was filed tried at Harrah's, Laughlin and quite popular long before the show (11/2012). In the sense, HCF helped the show and not the other way around. Forget about 1 out 3 or 1 out of 4, HCF was the first success of the Show and the competition. Hopefully, from now on, the Show can help new games.

Quote: Paigowdan

I think both High Card Flush and Player's Choice-21 are very fine

PC21 is too much like Switch and 3CP to really
catch on. HCP, who knows..

Quote: Paigowdan

your constant and relentless nay-saying is both unhelpful and absolutely irrelevant.

I'm only a naysayer about the silly games, which is
most of them. I like EZ Bac and M21, they're fine.

I've been going to Vegas for over 35 years and there
were no carnival games in the 70's, if there were I
never saw them. In 1931, the first games that Nevada
officially endorsed were Faro, monte, roulette, keno,
fan-tan, twenty-one, blackjack, seven-and-a-half, big injun,
klondyke, craps, stud poker, draw poker.

Which of those games are left today? Roulette, craps, BJ
poker, and keno. It wasn't till the 60's that bac was around and
then it was only in the high limit rooms. There were few
tables of it in the 70's and 80's, I never saw it.

Where were faro and monte and fan-tan and 7 1/2
and big injun and klondyke, when I got to Vegas in the
mid 70's? All were carnival games and all were gone. All
I saw were the big 5, and the Wheel of Fortune. So
when new carnival games started popping up in the 80's
and 90's, I looked at them with disdain, and I still do.
Flashes in the pan.

But games like mini-bac, and EZ bac, and M21 are variations
on the big anchor games and they might have legs.
They might be here for the long haul. So yeah, Dan, I'm a
naysayer for the silly dumb games, I hate them, I hate what
they stand for. They changed casinos for the worse, not the
better. They're only there to suck people in and empty their
pockets. At some point casinos went from respectable places
of business, to low life clip joints. A sad commentary..

Quote: UCivan

High Card Flush's success was not entirely due to Raving's show.

Yes, very true. That success is because HCF is a simply a good game, and the Raving Show had a "good crop" of games, for lack of a better description. Many good games never competed at Raving.

Quote: UCivan

(Perhpas, Galaxy and Zcore have more to do with it) HCF was filed tried at Harrah's, Laughlin and quite popular long before the show (11/2012). In the sense, HCF helped the show and not the other way around. Forget about 1 out 3 or 1 out of 4, HCF was the first success of the Show and the competition. Hopefully, from now on, the Show can help new games.

There is a mutually beneficial relationship, also very true. Raving helps good games, and good games do help Raving.

Quote: UCivan

High Card Flush's success was not entirely due to Raving's show.

"Downsides: We all seemed to lose way too fast, I was shocked to see it has a house edge of less than 3% (and was only putting $1 on the bonuses, I know, but still)." https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/other-games/14505-1st-time-high-card-flush-rookies-review/#post254941

This has always been my complaint with carnival
games, their ability to suck your money out of
your pocket. That's why the anchor games are
still here, played correctly they don't do that.

I remember the first time I played Caribbean Stud,
my $100 buy in disappeared in minutes. First and
last time I played it.

Quote: EvenBob

"Downsides: We all seemed to lose way too fast, I was shocked to see it has a house edge of less than 3% (and was only putting $1 on the bonuses, I know, but still)." https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/other-games/14505-1st-time-high-card-flush-rookies-review/#post254941

Fact of the matter in gambling: On any game we lose too fast. Blackjack itself can be notorious. Dice? Pass Line or come bets with odds, less than 1% HE - Watch out....

Quote: EvenBob

I remember the first time I played Caribbean Stud,
my $100 buy in disappeared in minutes. First and
last time I played it.

Did U enjoy the minutes U were playing? Enjoyment comes with a high price. Next player, please.

Quote: UCivan

Did U enjoy the minutes U were playing? .

Losing is never enjoyable, unless you're a masochist.
Longevity comes from repeat customers, that's why
Coke and Mar's Bars and craps and roulette are still
around. To get repeat customers, you have to offer
something more than a quick thrill.

Quote: Paigowdan

Fact of the matter in gambling: On any game we lose too fast. .

Not if you know what you're doing, Dan. Again,
that's why the anchor games are still around.
You can find ways to play them to make your
money last! Most carnival games have no strategy
that's lets you play for a long time, you lose far
more often than win. That's their POINT, to suck
in the low info Hoopleheads, get their cash, and
have the game burn out in a year or two.

You industry people have this attitude that
the public, all of it, are just drooling cretins, and
only you 'experts' know what you're doing. The
truth is, the public makes or breaks a game, accepts
it or rejects it. The experts have little to do with
it.

And by the way Dan, if you keep reading this. You, Mike and Angela's craps video's are great. I too was intimidated when I was a craps virgin. I commend especially Mike on exposing the 'dark side' of the game, which doesn't happen much and you for participating. Angela is smokin'.

Quote: Alan

And by the way Dan, if you keep reading this. You, Mike and Angela's craps video's are great. I too was intimidated when I was a craps virgin. I commend especially Mike on exposing the 'dark side' of the game, which doesn't happen much and you for participating.

Wonderful!!!
As for becoming a crap player:
1. Fear nothing! You apologize to NO ONE for jumping in onto the action of a crap game ever! (So as long as you follow a touch of reasonable etiquette - such as you buy in when the dice are moved to the center, and let fellow players place their bets, and let the dealer do his take-and-pay, yada yada yada - you'll pick it up in a flash!) While I am not 100% on DI ("Dice Influence/Control" - as being a bit/way beyond human "robotic" precision) - I am honored that a dice aficionado like Frank Scoblete chimes in here. Lord, do I share the love of this game with him and his folk, Bless Frank!

2. Simple fact of the matter - NO game has the Gamblin' juice, camaraderie, or excitement of dice, POS= "Period, End of Story"; if I had to choose ONE GAME, it is Craps. And I say this as a professional game designer with a casino game manufacturer. I do NOT let gambling interfere with my life or marriage or obligations, I gamble in a discretionary fashion. Dice makes it tough. And not meaning to sound like The Most Interesting Man in the World (Because that's EvenBob)...."I don't always gamble....but when I do, my Bottom Byatch is Craps."

3. The game of craps was codified by a game designer around the turn of the (20th) Century, John H. Winn. Some games stay, and for a reason.

4. Read Frank Scoblete's books. You don't have to believe in DI, or agree with it. It's about passion and participation in The Great Casino Game.

Quote: Alan

Angela is smokin'.

She's beautiful, intelligent, and gracious. And she can deal. She can cripple a mortal man. A challenge of bearing and self-composure. In working with her, Mike is either a Buddha realized being, or an automaton. (We're still making prop bets on this....)

Along these lines of the "Most interesting Man in the World"... Angela's actual presence will make a man's wedding ring sting - just as a reminder....Your Rolex Chronometer will lose time because your heart skipped several beats...Angelina Jolie wishes SHE were her....When she walks into a casino, all jackpots reset at over One Million Dollars each....etc....

Angela has a remarkable presence and bearing.

One thing nobody talks about is how much of a cut
of the profits a game designer actually gets from
companies like SHFL and Galaxy. It can't be much,
maybe 20% if your're lucky. Your game has to be
very popular before you make any real money, I
mean the get rich money. And Roger Snow himself
says that's highly unlikely: "Here's something about
this business people don't understand: The odds of
success are minuscule. There's no stats on this, but
my guess is of every hundred games that make it
onto the casino floor each year, one survives."
http://www.vegasinc.com/news/2012/oct/11/how-design-casino-table-game-s-wordwide-hit/

To comment on Bob's post, he's right. It's an often brutal path. Won't talk numbers.
It's a bit like selling a screenplay with no credits. Or with credits.

Quote: Paigowdan

To comment on Bob's post, he's right. It's an often brutal path. Won't talk numbers.

The fact that you're not arguing with 20% means
it's probably more like 12%-15%. If it was 25%,
you most assuredly would have corrected me to the
higher figure. To tell the truth, I suspected it's the in 12%
range, which means making real money for the
game designer is a long haul indeed. Just another
nail in the coffin.

Quote: EvenBob

The fact that you're not arguing with 20% means
it's probably more like 12%-15%.

No. The fact that I am not arguing with 20% means that it's generally 20%, and typically.

Sometimes it's even 25% or 30%. Sometimes it's 15%.
Whatever is worked out, based upon the game's merits.
If somebody wants to buy it or sign it, then there's possibilities.

But not if the game is no good.
Then it is 0% with 0 installs because of no offer.

The game designer always has the right to sell it himself or herself, directly to the casino operator, if he - and the operator - think it's good, after all.

Quote: Paigowdan

Sometimes it's 15%.

And sometimes it's less than 15%..

Quote: Paigowdan

The game designer always has the right to sell it himself or herself, directly to the casino operator, if he - and the operator - think it's good, after all.

OMG, Dan cracks a joke! I didn't think it was
in you, Dan. And an author can self publish
his book and make onto the NYT Bestseller
List.

Not..

And sometimes it's 50%.

Quote: Thermos

And sometimes it's 50%.

Yes.
And it isn't Bob, I can you that.

Quote: Thermos

And sometimes it's 50%.

Give me a break. That would be impossible. Do you
know that the average best selling author makes
about $1.25 on every $24.95 book he sells? Look
it up, I did. That's 5%. That means to make a
million dollars they have to sell 800,000 hard cover
copies. Not bloody likely.

It's no different for gaming companies. Like a publisher,
they shoulder most of the expense and get most of
the profits. 12-15% isn't really all that bad for a game
designer, an author would kill for that deal.

Quote: EvenBob

And sometimes it's less than 15%..

No.
A Monster hit proprietary game may earn $500 to $1,800 per table, per month, for several hundred installs, and that'll be at 20% plus if a really good game.

400 tables times $1,800 per month, or 800 tables at $900 a month makes $720,000 a month, or $8.6 Million a year.

A distributor will take the $6 million a year at 70%, leaving $216,00 a month - or $2 Million-six for the inventor to live on. I know three guys in this category, and it's no one who posts here. And BOTH parties - inventor and manufacturer will agree to this deal. Three Card Poker earns $900 to $1,500 a month, times a thousand games. Derek Webb lives well, and he deserves it, God Bless Him. But it would take a real manufacturer with a real sales force to accomplish this type of dominance, so you sign.

Now, a Mickey-Mouse BJ side bet may make $90 a month for 20 installs, for $1,800 a month, with the inventor making $270 a month at 15%, or about $3,200 a year - then why even bother for any party involved here. You can rent a used car in the course of a year for that, or barely pay for some utility bills with that.

I know a fine man who has a good BJ side bet that makes $200 per table month times 80 installs, - with NO distributor - that's $16,000 a month by himself FOR himself. He could only afford to get the game approved in a few jurisdictions - like Nevada and New Jersey, just two states, but that's enough. So when I said, "Sell it yourself," I was serious. On his way to $180,000 a year, he wore out thousands in terms of shoes and tires and gas, but he made it by himself.

Now, if less than a 15% split is being considered for a marginal game, particularly a side bet, then a small cash buyout for the game's rights may be offered on a "take it or leave it" basis. If you have a "pull my chain" type of side bet for BJ - that you spent $250 for your own provision patent, spent a month on, and did your own excel math on, then you might take $5,000 cash buyout versus a snowball's chance in hell zero-dollar result otherwise. You're up-to-date on your rent, you paid for a used car, and you're on your way to the next game, or just happy to catch up on bills.

The point I'm trying to make is that with a game design:
1. You can make $2M a year ("Like you got a shot; Go Play MegaBucks");
2. You can make $120,00 a year (Also a long shot - "you have a rough road," but possible);
3. you can make $270 a month, which will be offered to you as one-time $5,000 check, sign over the patent and pay your bills;
4. you make jack squat.

You think it's worth $2M a year. You think your daughter is Miss America or Angela.

You get offered a $5,000, or a 20% deal with a real distributor.

Take it or blow your chance.

Quote: EvenBob

Give me a break. That would be impossible.

Sorry, EB Farnum. You are wrong. There's a game, and it's one of the scant few you admire, it out there on a 50-50 revenue split.

Quote: Thermos

Sorry, EB Farnum. You are wrong. There's a game, and it's one of the scant few you admire, it out there on a 50-50 revenue split.

Thru a gaming company like SHFL or Galaxy?
No, there isn't. Prove it.

Quote: EvenBob

Thru a gaming company like SHFL or Galaxy?
No, there isn't. Prove it.

How about this? If I prove it, you must promise not to post on this message board for a week.

Deal?

Quote: Thermos

How about this? If I prove it, you must promise not to post on this message board for a week.

Deal?

You can't prove it, if you signed with a gaming
company you also signed an NDA. Nice try. And
hearsay doesn't count. Somebody told you, so
what. Post the contract.

Quote: EvenBob

You can't prove it, if you signed with a gaming
company you also signed an NDA. Nice try. And
hearsay doesn't count. Somebody told you, so
what. Post the contract.

You didn't answer the question.

Quote: EvenBob

In 2009, Fortune Teller Blackjack was the winner at Raving. What
has happened to this game since....

I saw it at a Stations property in 2009 or 2010 & asked the floor about it. She indicated it was tough to deal with different pays for every outcome.....Dealers had to lift up the player bet to see the payout listed underneath. I knew when dealers were complaining, the game was cooked.

Quote: EvenBob

In 2008 EZ Bac won, which was in all our local casinos
until it disappeared because the Asians refused to
play it. It's still around, but is it really doing all that well?

I recall from a recent DEQ earnings release there are close to 600 installs currently.....the no comm. mechanism is now off patent as evidenced by some offerings from SHFL & Galaxy at this year's G2E. I think the Dragon 7 & Panda 8, along with the hugely successful Dragon Bonus will be tough to displace as the side bets of choice. Dan's Lucky Win offers higher payouts so there may be some room to carve out a niche in that space as well. Side bets will be the battle ground in the bacc world.

I am in the camp that High Card Flush will be a 100+ install game. When I first saw the game I wasn't sure there was enough there.....ante, squeeze 7 cards and make a play bet. I think the simple decision point, similar to 3CP, is what the average ploppie wants and the potential for large pays (8000-1), is a draw. Staying power on the other hand, will be another matter, as others have indicated.

On the topic of Raving, I think it has become the choice for independent developers to exhibit their games to the casino execs & prove a game's merit to the SHFL's & Galaxy's of the world. There weren't any indie developers at G2E that I saw. At Raving there are now 24 games on display not counting what Galaxy & SHFL are bringing...that is as big a showing for games at Raving that I can remember since I started attending in 2009. That says a lot for the Show that Raving/BNP Media put on for the table game industry.

Quote: Paradigm

...the no comm. mechanism is now off patent as evidenced by some offerings from SHFL & Galaxy at this year's G2E.

It surprised me to learn EZ was patented in the early
90's, I didn't see it till 2009. Where was it all those
years.

Quote: Thermos

Sorry, EB Farnum. You are wrong. There's a game, and it's one of the scant few you admire, it out there on a 50-50 revenue split.

Hmmm.....you have got me thinking Thermos.....I should know this answer, but I don't :-)......may have to PM you my guess after thinking about it a while.....course you don't have to answer, but PM's are confidential......Hmmm

Quote: Paradigm

I think the simple decision point, similar to 3CP, is what the average ploppie wants and the potential for large pays (8000-1), is a draw. Staying power on the other hand, will be another matter, as others have indicated.

Dan, is 8000 to 1 payout still being offered on High Card Flush? I know the math works, but I heard casinos do not like it, so it has been removed.

It's up to the casino. I reduced my top end to 1000-1 and raised the low pay out to make up for it. My players prefer that type of payback.

ZCore13

Quote: EvenBob

It surprised me to learn EZ was patented in the early
90's, I didn't see it till 2009. Where was it all those
years.

Dan will know more on this, but I believe he mentioned to me at one point that the inventors went a long time trying to get it placed without a distributor and found some success. But it blew up under DEQ's watch.....as I write this, I am thinking this may be the 50% game as a game getting that kind of royalty stream for the inventor would need serious placements before signing with a distributor......The co-inventor is speaking at this year's Raving Conference.

Quote: EvenBob

It surprised me to learn EZ was patented in the early
90's, I didn't see it till 2009. Where was it all those
years.

Quote: Paradigm

Dan will know more on this, but I believe he mentioned to me at one point that the inventors went a long time trying to get it placed without a distributor and found some success. But it blew up under DEQ's watch.....as I write this, I am thinking this may be the 50% game as a game getting that kind of royalty stream for the inventor would need serious placements before signing with a distributor......The co-inventor is speaking at this year's Raving Conference.

The developers thought they could sell it without a sales force, and it languished for years at five games or so. Lost a REAL LOT of patent time.
They went to DEQ, and Paul Omohundro pumped it out as VP of Sales, and they made up for lost time. God Bless Paul.

Good Inventor <> good Casino Industry Salesman.
Remember - without sales, there IS no sales. And this may require a distributor unless you can sell, and have a lot of shoes.

Quote: UCivan

Dan, is 8000 to 1 payout still being offered on High Card Flush? I know the math works, but I heard casinos do not like it, so it has been removed.

Multiple pay tables are now updated. See the NGBC site for versions #2 and #3, just approved.

Look.

Let me repost this deeper in the thread to tell you how selling your New Game may actually work.

-------------------------------------
A Monster hit proprietary game may earn $500 to $1,800 per table, per month, for several hundred installs, and that'll be at 20% plus percentage if a really good game. And don't listen to EvenBob unless - YOU expect him to sell your game.

400 tables times $1,800 per month, or 800 tables at $900 a month makes $720,000 a month, or $8.6 Million a year.

A distributor will take the $6 million a year at 70%, leaving $216,00 a month - or $2 Million-six for the inventor to live on. I know three guys in this category, and it's no one who posts here. And BOTH parties - inventor and manufacturer will agree to this deal. Three Card Poker earns $900 to $1,500 a month, times a thousand games. Derek Webb lives well, and he deserves it, God Bless Him. But it would take a real manufacturer with a real sales force to accomplish this type of dominance, so you sign.

Now, a Mickey-Mouse BJ side bet may make $90 a month for 20 installs, for $1,800 a month, with the inventor making $270 a month at 15%, or about $3,200 a year - then why even bother for any party involved here. You can rent a used car in the course of a year for that, or barely pay for some utility bills with that.

I know a fine man who has a good BJ side bet that makes $200 per table month times 80 installs, - with NO distributor - that's $16,000 a month by himself FOR himself. He could only afford to get the game approved in a few jurisdictions - like Nevada and New Jersey, just two states, but that's enough. So when I said, "Sell it yourself," I was serious. On his way to $180,000 a year, he wore out thousands in terms of shoes and tires and gas, but he made it by himself.

Now, if less than a 15% split is being considered for a marginal game, particularly a side bet, then a small cash buyout for the game's rights may be offered on a "take it or leave it" basis. If you have a "pull my chain" type of side bet for BJ - that you spent $250 for your own provision patent, spent a month on it, and did your own excel math on, then you might take $5,000 cash buyout versus a snowball's chance in hell zero-dollar result otherwise. You're up-to-date on your rent, you paid for a used car, and you're on your way to the next game, or just happy to catch up on bills.

The point I'm trying to make is that with a game design:
1. You can make $2M a year ("Like you got a shot; Go Play MegaBucks");
2. You can make $120,00 a year (Also a long shot - "you have a rough road," but possible);
3. you can make $270 a month, which will be offered to you as one-time $5,000 check, sign over the patent and pay your bills;
4. you make jack squat.

You think it's worth $2M a year. You think your daughter is Miss America or Angela.

You get offered a $5,000 check for nothing, or a 20% deal on a real game with a real distributor, you may wanna consider it, just to get a game out in real world action.

Take it or blow your chance. Your goal is to get established.

Quote: Paigowdan

Remember - without sales, there IS no sales. And this may require a distributor unless you can sell, and have a lot of shoes.

That's why the gaming company gets more than the
designer and the publisher more than the author.
Stephen King is rich because he wrote 20 best sellers.
Just one doesn't do much for you.

Quote: Zcore13

It's up to the casino. I reduced my top end to 1000-1 and raised the low pay out to make up for it. My players prefer that type of payback.

ZCore13

1000-1 is enough, particularly if you use the difference to beef up the bottom pays....500-1 is one of the real draws to UTH for me particularly because you don't have to play a side bet to have a chance of hitting it.....albeit a small one :-)

Quote: EvenBob

Quote: Paigowdan

Remember - without sales, there IS no sales. And this may require a distributor unless you can sell, and have a lot of shoes.

That's why the gaming company gets more than the
designer and the publisher more than the author.
Stephen King is rich because he wrote 20 best sellers.
Just one doesn't do much for you.

Depends if it it's a hit.
Derek Webb made something like $40M on one game.
EZ Baccarat is the only hit for the Talisman Group - but they'll take it.
The list goes on.
Some designers have a number of low-install games, and do well combined. That exists also.


The vast majority of the people who made it as game designers point to ONE game that put them on Easy Street with nothing else, really. Michael Cimino of The Deer Hunter really had no other hit.

Quote: Paigowdan

1. You can make $2M a year ("Like you got a shot; Go Play MegaBucks");
2. You can make $120,00 a year (Also a long shot - "you have a rough road," but possible);
3. you can make $270 a month, which will be offered to you as one-time $5,000 check, sign over the patent and pay your bills;
4. you make jack squat.

3 and 4 are the most likely, have the highest probability.
Actually, 4 does, I'm just trying to be nice.

Quote: Paigowdan

Depends if it it's a hit.
Derek Webb made something like $40M on one game.
.

Ancient history, Dan. 3CP was in the right place at
the right time, before the casino explosion. Too many
games now, too many copycats, too many gaming
companies, too much competition.

Again, Coca Cola is still a hit because it was on the
ground floor of a blossoming industry. So was 3CP.
It'll never happen again, just like Coke will never
happen again.

All we get is offshoots of the anchor games, nothing
really new ever catches on. Why is that. Every game
at Raving this year is an anchor game derivative. Cee-lo
is like craps or vice-versa, chicken or the egg.

Quote: Paigowdan

I know a fine man who has a good BJ side bet that makes $200 per table month times 80 installs, - with NO distributor - that's $16,000 a month by himself FOR himself. He could only afford to get the game approved in a few jurisdictions - like Nevada and New Jersey, just two states, but that's enough. So when I said, "Sell it yourself," I was serious. On his way to $180,000 a year, he wore out thousands in terms of shoes and tires and gas, but he made it by himself.

This seems like the best path for both sides with a side bet.....at $200 or less per month and a crowded field of established games that a new game needs to take market share from to get installs, there just isn't a lot of $$$ for a distributor to get excited about or left for the inventor to sign up for to start out.

But with 80 installs and proof that the side bet has staying power, it seems like that would be the time to cut a deal with a distributor in other jurisdictions and let them supplement the $16K per month with placements in jurisdictions you can't get to effectively as a one man show.

Quote: EvenBob

3 and 4 are the most likely, have the highest probability.
Actually, 4 does, I'm just trying to be nice.

3 and 4 are your basic choices.
Classes #1 or #2, (Million dollar games, or $100,000 games), you don't need advice from this forum.

So you're damn Lucky, one in 50, for #3, a small offer. It is RARE to be offered something better.
Some executives in this industry have offered some games (with promising but unproven games) very reasonable deals, and I'm thinking of the "Some City" Poker game, or something to that effect:

Exec: Your game's awesome. We love it! We can get 100 tables out this year alone! We need table game content NOW! (And he could have done it it). - Would you take a $200,000 signing bonus and 40% of Gross?
Designer: No, I demand $1M and 50% of Gross - or YOU hit the highway! (and I mean this designer spoke Francais here: "JE DEMAND LES CHOSES QUE JE DEMAND DE VOUS, MOUSSIER!" and..."Who the Phoque are you!") so....
Exec: No deal, I'm sorry you feel that way (and he meant it!) please call back VERY soon if you reconsider.
Designer; #^%$ you! Bye!
.................
(Six months later......Designer calls him....)
Designer: Okay, I'll take your offer of $200,000 cash plus 40% of gross. I can sign this week!
Exec: Well, things have changed. We've gotten some in-house designs out now, but we can still offer you $20K and 30%, and get 25 games out to establish your game - and you get established as a designer. PLEASE take it.
Designer: No! [click]
................
(Nine months later....Designer calls back...)
Designer: okay, - Let's talk - I'll take the $20K signing bonus and the 30%. I can sign this week!
Exec: Well, things continue to change. You should have accepted while the accepting was good. Our current offer is no signing bonus, but 20% of Gross, and we'll get ten games out this year, maybe, and if it is good, the game will move. It'll make you some money, and you'll still get established. Please consider it.
Designer: No. Bye.
.................
(A year later - we're talking "meanwhile, back at the Ranch" type of shit....Designer calls....)
Designer: Okay. I'll take 20% with no signing bonus on the game....
Exec: Uh, things have changed. they have really changed. We were able to produce table game content without your help in the end, - and it is the end, here.
Designer [scared now...]: Uh, okay. How about you take the game free for a year, and establish it for us - to see what it does, right? - we are comrades, now, right?
Exec: Uh, no. We now do not need your game, and we are simply not interested in it anymore. We won't take it for free at this point. thanks, goodbye, chump.

I could'a been a contender, type of thing.
I've seen "Deal or No Deal" episodes were the McDonald's working contestant had a $450,000 cash in hand now type of deal, with basketall sessions with Michael Jordan and Mike Shackleford, - but the contestant says "Screw that! - double or nothing! - I'M ALL IN!!!!" He then leaves with a $40 Sizzler Steakhouse coupon after losing it ALL, and while his wife is trying to stomp the shit out of him on the way out, and Howie Mandel just chowing down on such a bloodbath. American Gladiators of sorts, here, for sure. A classic that scared me straight.

You get a game distribution offer from a MAJOR manufacturer, then you don't look a gift "Golden Unicorn" offer in the mouth. 20% and ten games out in a year, if your game is good, you've made it.

The rest will be history. Else still delivering for Pizza Hut.
You turn a deal down, then you often have nothing.

Quote: Paigowdan

You get a game distribution offer from a MAJOR manufacturer, then you don't look a gift "Golden Unicorn" offer in the mouth.

You'd have to be a greedy dimwit to not take
what a major company offers, but stranger things
have happened. Inventors usually overestimate
the value of their invention buy about 1000%.