Intellectual Property Ownership
When my shift is finished, I come home and spend my own time developing game/bet ideas. These ideas are based/created by using the knowledge and experience I've accrued in 25 years in the casino industry.
Am I right to assume that I could freely patent a game idea, with my employer having no claim over it as my job title is demonstrably service orientated. My shift is spent working in the pit and no time is given to develop said intellectual property?
Once again thanks in advance for any time taken to respond to this thread.
Quote: THESWEENEYI've just signed an employment contract as a dealer/imspector in a local casino. Within said contract there is a clause that states that any intellectual property I make or create in the course of my employment shall be the property of the company. Now as a dealer/inspector I spend my working day dealing and inspecting casino games. The pitboss doesn't tell me to go and sit in the staff room thinking up new games and side bets.
When my shift is finished, I come home and spend my own time developing game/bet ideas. These ideas are based/created by using the knowledge and experience I've accrued in 25 years in the casino industry.
Am I right to assume that I could freely patent a game idea, with my employer having no claim over it as my job title is demonstrably service orientated. My shift is spent working in the pit and no time is given to develop said intellectual property?
Once again thanks in advance for any time taken to respond to this thread.
Every state has different laws in this regard. If you want legal advice, go talk to a lawyer.
I will say that you probably shouldn't have signed a contract that you didn't want to agree to. You could have struck the clause before signing. If the casino would not agree to that, that might suggest that they are likely to go after anything that you create.
Quote: THESWEENEYI'm in the UK. I'm thinking that the paragraph in question is a generic inclusion should the employer task us to come up with ideas and suggestions for marketing, etc. As I've said this is not the case in the job I perform within the casino. Thoughts?
Every country also has its own laws. My thoughts are still that you should talk to a lawyer. I would definitely not rely on legal advice that you get on this (or any) forum.
The fact that what you are saying makes sense logically isn't really important. It would be nice if common sense always prevailed but, I don't think that any country's legal system works like that.
Quote: THESWEENEYI've just signed an employment contract as a dealer/imspector in a local casino. Within said contract there is a clause that states that any intellectual property I make or create in the course of my employment shall be the property of the company. Now as a dealer/inspector I spend my working day dealing and inspecting casino games. The pitboss doesn't tell me to go and sit in the staff room thinking up new games and side bets.
When my shift is finished, I come home and spend my own time developing game/bet ideas. These ideas are based/created by using the knowledge and experience I've accrued in 25 years in the casino industry.
Am I right to assume that I could freely patent a game idea, with my employer having no claim over it as my job title is demonstrably service orientated. My shift is spent working in the pit and no time is given to develop said intellectual property?
Once again thanks in advance for any time taken to respond to this thread.
Im assuming you work for the same Casino Companyas I do, and I work for Grosvenor Casinos and also have this clause in my contract. Feel free not to answer or answer by pm if you would prefer.
I have not tried to patent any ideasbut im not sure how enforceable it is. especially if you quit the job and then say you came up with the idea.
As above though, I would advise Professional Legal Advice to be sure.
I am not a lawyer, but this is the course of action I would take if I were in your place. You might be afraid of them misleading you, but as long as you get a straight answer I, personally, would feel fine.
Good luck, it would be truly a douchebag move to not allow you to retain your IP rights.
Quote: CroupierIm assuming you work for the same Casino Companyas I do, and I work for Grosvenor Casinos and also have this clause in my contract. Feel free not to answer or answer by pm if you would prefer.
I have not tried to patent any ideasbut im not sure how enforceable it is. especially if you quit the job and then say you came up with the idea.
As above though, I would advise Professional Legal Advice to be sure.
Reference quitting the job and then filing an application, again, I think it feeds into how you've been employed in your job. If i were working for Shufflemaster developing a dice game then quit my job, and file along the lines of what I've been working on, I feel Shufflemaster would quite legitimately be able to claim ownership were we to end up in court.
Must confess I'd be really interested to hear what Dan, Mike, Roger, and Rich have to say on this subject.
I deal my own game product, as I collect royalties on it. The inventor of High-card flush is also a dealer, as are many game inventors.
If a casino somehow claims ownership of anyone's patent or intellectual work, - then ask to see THEIR patent as proof, or perhaps THEIR Research and development department's or notes - there ARE none. Casinos are NOT in the game design business, they are in the game operation business. I know of NO casino corporate effort to develop games at all. This is quite different than working for a game distributor as a full time game designer or game reviewer, such as Roger at Shufflemaster, etc., as that is directly R & D for an IP-based game designer and distributor.
Casino claims of owning game design IP from an hourly wage dealer is ridiculous; this is akin to a Jiffy Lube mechanic being stricken from designing an automotive part on his own time, or a McDonald's clerk being forbidden from designing a new grill-top device, cash register, or cookware mechanism.
Really?Quote: THESWEENEYWhen my shift is finished, I come home and spend my own time developing game/bet ideas. These ideas are based/created by using the knowledge and experience I've accrued in 25 years in the casino industry.
Are you saying that you are able to segregate your thoughts to the point where you wont be thinking about your ideas during idle time at work?
And who is to say that the spark of inspiration for your idea came during your off hours rather than while you were busy at work trying to solve a related, or even unrelated, problem?
Quote: DJTeddyBearReally?
Are you saying that you are able to segregate your thoughts to the point where you wont be thinking about your ideas during idle time at work?
And who is to say that the spark of inspiration for your idea came during your off hours rather than while you were busy at work trying to solve a related, or even unrelated, problem?
That argument is immaterial. I thought out some aspects of my idea for commission-free Pai Gow Poker while I was employed dealing commission-based Pai Gow poker as a dealer, - and Stations has no claim to my intellectual property, nor a contract agreement for any of my IP ownership rights. For that matter, I had the same exposure to games as a casino player. Can a casino operator claim ownership to your new game designes because you were a gambler who played there? On the same game that's offered by countless other casino operators anyway? If they, the casino operator claims ownership to a never-before-seen game concept simply because they offer "previously seen" gambling games, then how exactly did THEY themselves fail to see the new idea? Furthermore, how can they not make the same claim against their gamblers - when exposing the same games to their gamblers?
The location of where you do your thinking is immaterial, as often your inspiration. Some people think and invent while on the can in the bathroom. Does your landlord have IP ownership claims if you develop a better toilet, because his supplied toilets in your flat were crappy? Bob Kearns, the inventor of the intermittent whildshield wiper, got his inspiration by getting hit in the eye with a champagne cork on his wedding night, and his eye went into "intermittent mode" when blinking for a while. Does Moet Champaign have a claim to his patents, because they were arguably an inspiration for them? No.
As a matter of fact, I work as an external consultant to a game distributor, with no such claims or restrictions in our contractual agreement, as I am not a full-time employee or designer for that game distributor, as was engaged as an established/professional game designer before hand; they have IP from many sources; (this would change if I were to become a full-time employee with a contract that stipulated that.) I do not see their patents, or any new game design that was not previously patented or protected by the game developer, who is external to them anyway. All major contracts I enter into are reviewed by my gaming patent lawyer.
No. But the landlord isn't in a related business. In your own case, your employer might be able to make an argument, but you didn't sign the kind of contract we're talking about.Quote: PaigowdanSome people think and invent while on the can in the bathroom. Does your landlord have IP ownership claims if you develop a better toilet, because his supplied toilets to your flat were crappy?
Quote: DJTeddyBearNo. But the landlord isn't in a related business. In your own case, your employer might be able to make an argument, but you didn't sign the kind of contract we're talking about.
One can argue that the business is not so related, - in the sense that no casino operator has any sort of a new game design operations at all, and that obviously you served no such function for them. Can you be restrcited from inventing a new cooking grill while working for a deli, or for a convenience store, that offers hot food? No, not as a clerk.
Edit: one must state that NO one invents in a vaccum - we are almost always working and functioning in a related area, if we are to know anything about some discipline. You cannot claim that exposure to a discipline gives others the right to your IP, unless it was your direct job roles, or you got information from corporate espionage.
Quote: Paigowdan
If a casino somehow claims ownership of anyone's patent or intellectual work, - then ask to see THEIR patent as proof, or perhaps THEIR Research and development department's or notes - there ARE none. Casinos are NOT in the game design business, they are in the game operation business. I know of NO casino corporate effort to develop games at all. This is quite different than working for a game distributor as a full time game designer or game reviewer, such as Roger at Shufflemaster, etc., as that is directly R & D for an IP-based game designer and distributor.
The point is that while they employ you, you ARE them. That you patented an idea that they think they had the rights to is exactly the problem. It can't also be a statement of the solution...
Quote: rdw4potusThe point is that while they employ you, you ARE them. That you patented an idea that they think they had the rights to is exactly the problem. It can't also be a statement of the solution...
1. You are not owned by a company, nor are your ideas, or are a slave that is owned by them, although many view their hourly jobs as such, unless you work in R & D or design, and have a contract to that effect. The practice of Droit du seigneur (or extreme rights to your subjects) is not in effect here.
2. A business owner may think anything he wishes, or make any claims he wishes, against his employees, and often does; if you don't explicitly work for an employer in the role as a designer, and in an exclusive role, the employer may have a hard time claiming ownership if it weren't indeed your job function - especially if he is not in the design business at all himself.
I mean, if the employer/casino cannot make the claim of being in the new game design business for themselves (as opposed to operations, - where the stuff was "already designed"), then how can they make this claim onto its menial workers?
Keep in mind that dealers do not work as designers, nor are they exposed to any private or undisclosed intellectual property that wasn't a public disclosure. When you're dealing a game in a public place, such as a casino, you are not touching anything that was "undisclosed intellectual property." AND you can play the same games as gamblers anyway - How can a casino make an IP claim against a dealer, - if they cannot also make such a claim against a gambler who played there?
Quote: THESWEENEYThanks for all the responses guys. And thanks Dan for confirming what I'd considered to be the case. In truth I don't think the company is trying to imply this, the clause is simply there to cover any instance were they to task employees with coming up with ideas relating to the business, say promotional ideas and such like.
Yes, I agree with the view that the casino operator is simply trying to protect itself from any conflict of interest situation concerning novel promotions schemes that would conflict with the casino's business operational goals, true.
But if you design and patent a new table game idea that no casino operator had ever previously seen or developed themselves, and you don't work as a designer for them, they cannot claim that they had developed it and patented it themselves - when you did it independently - with a straight face, and when they themselves lack any provable new product development effort on their own part.
This is especially so when you can show all of your independent work, as well your patent filing, with no help or involvement from them or anyone else. The claim, "Oh....we happened work in the same business, and he's my 'subject' too, - so I own his stuff, also!" doesn't fly.
They only except to this is if you had specifically worked in new a product development function, and had signed a corporate product development/IP ownership agreement.
Quote: ahiromuI'm not sure about the UK but I have to believe an IP lawyer, even with a question as simple as this, would charge the living shit out of you.
There are points in between asking strangers on the street [note: you already are not there] and going to a law office and hiring a lawyer to get written legal advice (which the lawyer is potentially responsible for).
Quote: THESWEENEY...
Today there's plenty of ways to get free advice on simpler matters of law from people with appropriate knowledge, although it will not be as certain as the above. This ranges from specialized internet forums to legal firms offering free answers or consults, so as to eventually attract paying clients. Chances are your clause is boilerplate and its implications are well known. Search around.
In either case you'll need the actual exact text, not just "there is a clause". Wording can be important.
Quote: PaigowdanCasino claims of owning game design IP from an hourly wage dealer is ridiculous; this is akin to a Jiffy Lube mechanic being stricken from designing an automotive part on his own time, or a McDonald's clerk being forbidden from designing a new grill-top device, cash register, or cookware mechanism.
That might just be because most casino employee inventions don't make any money, but many companies have invention assignment policies. After a startup I was working for was acquired, I worked briefly for IBM. Their policy was that anything an employee invents, regardless of what, where, when, belongs to the company. I had an understanding with the pre-merger company that anything to do with the business of the company was theirs; anything else was mine. I invented several casino games during that time and they didn't care. When I asked IBM about the same scenarios, they said such future inventions would belong to them...
To the OP, you need to understand and/or clarify the scope of your agreement. You also need to be aware of any laws that supersede it. For example:
Quote: California Labor Code 2870(a) Any provision in an employment agreement which provides
that an employee shall assign, or offer to assign, any of his or her
rights in an invention to his or her employer shall not apply to an
invention that the employee developed entirely on his or her own time
without using the employer's equipment, supplies, facilities, or
trade secret information except for those inventions that either:
(1) Relate at the time of conception or reduction to practice of
the invention to the employer's business, or actual or demonstrably
anticipated research or development of the employer; or
(2) Result from any work performed by the employee for the
employer.
(b) To the extent a provision in an employment agreement purports
to require an employee to assign an invention otherwise excluded from
being required to be assigned under subdivision (a), the provision
is against the public policy of this state and is unenforceable.
That said, "casino games" certainly relate to the business of your employer, so you should clarify your terms. Find out whether your casino actually expects that if you invent the next Three Card Poker, that they would have rights to it by virtue of you dealing for them. Another factor is that in the UK, one cannot get a patent on "a method for playing a game as such." So ask. But don't rely on anyone here (including me :) -- nobody on this forum, to my knowledge, is familiar with UK IP or labor (labour?) issues. Go hire someone. Contrary to popular belief, you should be able to get good, relevant advice for a few hundred dollars. And if you're not willing to spend that much to protect your ideas, how much are they really worth in the first place?
