Riverboat Roulette -- Roulette with Place Bets / Multiple Spin Wagers
My brother and I are one of the "independents" that will be debuting our roulette variation, "Riverboat Roulette", at G2E this year. As a result, I'm wanting to gain viable feedback from members of the group because I know you are ones who will view the game with a high level of scrutiny and an analytical eye. As a result, please give me your honest feedback -- all feedback is good!
1. Riverboat Roulette is a roulette variation that allows players the ability to play traditional roulette while adding to option of making multiple spin wagers on any of the six multi-spin colored sections on the roulette wheel.
2. Players may wager on any of the multi-spin colored sections or on the single-spin white section.
3. Winning colored section bets pay odds on winning wagers.
4. Winning white section bets also pay odds but lose on all other outcomes.
5. Colored section wagers that don't win "push" and only lose when the outcome results in the white section (Called a White Out) -- creating a multiple spin version of roulette.
**Note: Players may leave their pushed wagers in place, take them down, or add to their bets**
House Edge on New Betting Options
White Neighborhood: 5.26% ( Winning Payout of 7:2)
Blue & Orange Neighborhoods: 2.63% (Winning Payout of 7:5)
Purple & Pink Neighborhoods: 4.21% (Winning Payout of 8:5)
Light Blue & Yellow Neighborhoods: 5.26% (Winning Payout of 2:1)
** Mathematical Analysis Conducted by GLI**
Points to Consider
We have several designs that we have developed for the wheel / layout. As a result, the images you see are only one wheel / layout of many. However, we purposely grouped the neighborhoods together to entice players to increase their average bet per spin in their attempt to better predict the outcome of each spin.
Additionally, since three multi-spin neighborhoods exist on each side of the wheel, we feel that some players may view these options as a new type of "dozens" bet. Although we did protect all the various possibilities of neighborhoods (from a 1 spot neighborhood to an 8 spot neighborhood), we deliberately made neighborhoods of 5, 4, and 3 spots on each side, instead of 4 neighborhoods of 3 (which would pay 2:1) or 3 neighborhoods of 4 (Paying 8:5). This way, if they truly want to buy this "dozen" bet, they will have to bet of minimum of $5 on each neighborhood or 3 times the amount of a traditional dozen bet in order to get all their 12 numbers grouped together. However, they will only get paid 2:1 odds on 3 of the 12 numbers.
Next, we also believe that some roulette players may not actually play the multi-spin wagers, but will use the highlighted sections to help them determine numbers that they will bet straight up and in higher amounts.
Security
We also believe that by highlighting the multi-spin, colored, neighborhoods, it will be much easier for casino personnel & security to better determine if sectioning / weak dealing procedures are present and to better identifyi AP roulette players (if you believe in such a thing).
Over-the-Rainbow Bet
Although you don't see it on the version depicted above, we have also developed a side-bet for those players and casinos looking for some trip changing winning wager. This bet is similar to a fire-bet / bonus-craps type wager where a specified number of the colored neighborhoods must be hit before a "White Out".
Tell us what you think!
In closing, I know we already broke one of the Wizard's Commandants about tinkering with roulette (lol), however, I would appreciate any and all feedback on the game and feel free to provide both "positive" and "negative" feedback. After all, we feel that all feedback is good because it may help us consider things we've not thought of or help us refine our approach in offering Riverboat Roulette to casinos and players alike. If you're going to be at G2E this year, stop by and see us at booth #2712!
Also, what is the significance of the 0/00 betting spot betweend the "2nd 12" and "3rd 12" betting areas? Is this any different than the 0 & 00 betting area on the normal roulette layout? I guess I am asking why are they there if they pay the same as the other green spots on the regular layout?
Quote: ParadigmWhat happens when the red and black slots are hit (2 singleton spots each)? Are these just like hitting a non-bet color for every colored neighborhood bet (i.e. all the neighborhoods push on a red/black spot)?
Also, what is the significance of the 0/00 betting spot betweend the "2nd 12" and "3rd 12" betting areas? Is this any different than the 0 & 00 betting area on the normal roulette layout? I guess I am asking why are they there if they pay the same as the other green spots on the regular layout?
If the outcome results in red, black, or green spots, nothing happens with relation to the colored neighborhoods.....it's like rolling a 2,3,11, or 12 when you've placed a place bet in craps -- it's another push. Conversely, if a player has wagered on the white neighborhood and the outcome is in the red, black, green spots, then that wager loses.
With respect to the 0/00 question -- the 0/00 betting option is merely placed between the "2nd & 3rd 12" to make it easier for players to bet either of those numbers and not have to reach over to make that wager or not have to have the dealer make it for them. Additionally, it was placed there to provide a cosmetic balance to the new "7 to 2 White Neighborhood Betting Spot".
I haven't thought about the math, but if you combined the blue & orange neighborhoods in a single neighborhood color and the Pink & Orange neighborhoods in a single neighborhood color, would those pay offs be 15-5 or 3-1? I just added 8-5 and 7-5 to get get the 15-5 or 3-1 but not really sure you can do that....too lazy right now to figure it out.
Quote: ParadigmGot it....makes sense on both accounts.
I haven't thought about the math, but if you combined the blue & orange neighborhoods in a single neighborhood color and the Pink & Orange neighborhoods in a single neighborhood color, would those pay offs be 15-5 or 3-1? I just added 8-5 and 7-5 to get get the 15-5 or 3-1 but not really sure you can do that....too lazy right now to figure it out.
We wouldn't offer any multiple-spin neighborhood whose outcomes would exceed the "house's" 8-spot white neighborhood. In both of your combined options, one would be a neighborhood of 10 and the other a neighborhood of 8. If this were the case, it wouldn't be profitable for the house.
Unless I'm missing something.....
Personally, I think the red, black, and green spaces on the wheel are confusing (although you did a smart thing putting the red spaces only on red numbers and the black spaces only on black numbers; I could almost see somebody complaining, "I bet on red, and it's in one of the red spaces - how did I lose?" "Because it's 35 Black"); they should just be the six colors and white. Having the other colors make make it more like craps, but casinos already have a game that's like that - Craps.
With 14 white spaces, change the payout to 3-2; the HA becomes 7.89% (14 wins pay 21; 24 losses collect 24). You could also move the white spaces around so there are two between each adjacent pair of other colors, except there would be three where the 0 and 00 are located.
to keep track of. Customers will hate it because its confusing and
hard to understand. Roulette is hard enough to understand, you've
just increased that 10 fold.
Quote: doubleluckWe wouldn't offer any multiple-spin neighborhood whose outcomes would exceed the "house's" 8-spot white neighborhood. In both of your combined options, one would be a neighborhood of 10 and the other a neighborhood of 8. If this were the case, it wouldn't be profitable for the house.
Unless I'm missing something.....
That makes sense....l didn't really look at the math on that, just trying to get you away from 8-5 & 7-5 payouts.....those are going to be hard on a $1 bet so I guess these are going to be $5 min bets only?
Can you get to all "X to 1" payouts if you get rid of some of the red/black/green spots and add more white out spots. Again, just trying to figure out how to get away from those "8-5" & "7-5" payouts as I see that as a sticking point.
Quote: ThatDonGuySuggestion: make the light blue 2-1 space on the table lighter; it's hard to tell it apart from the blue 7-5 one. (It's much clearer on the wheel itself.)
Personally, I think the red, black, and green spaces on the wheel are confusing (although you did a smart thing putting the red spaces only on red numbers and the black spaces only on black numbers; I could almost see somebody complaining, "I bet on red, and it's in one of the red spaces - how did I lose?" "Because it's 35 Black"); they should just be the six colors and white. Having the other colors make make it more like craps, but casinos already have a game that's like that - Craps.
With 14 white spaces, change the payout to 3-2; the HA becomes 7.89% (14 wins pay 21; 24 losses collect 24). You could also move the white spaces around so there are two between each adjacent pair of other colors, except there would be three where the 0 and 00 are located.
We have a version of the game where the white spaces are situated in the exact manner that you're speaking of (as well as many other ways...and different variations of where to put the two red and two black singletons). However, we felt that it may prevent players from betting all the neighborhoods that are connected together. We think people will see those three colored neighborhoods on each side of the wheel and think...."Look if I bet all 12 of these, I have 12 ways to win and only 8 ways to lose!" or "If I bet ALL those colors, I'll have 24 ways to win and only 8 ways to lose....this game is beatable!!! I'm now a 3-to-1 FAVORITE". We just grouped them together because "visually speaking" it's a little more enticing. Conversely, by breaking them up it may not have the same visual appeal.
Thanks for the feedback with respect to the 14 white spaces. We like the 3:2 pay out but we didn't want to have any new bet that exceeded the traditional 5.26% HE. However, that is still something we may consider.
Now you want to mix Roulette with craps ?
Good luck, I think you will need it.
Quote: EvenBobI play nothing but roulette and dealers will hate this, too much
to keep track of. Customers will hate it because its confusing and
hard to understand. Roulette is hard enough to understand, you've
just increased that 10 fold.
Bob, I know you're a die hard traditionalist when it comes to roulette and definitely want more feedback from you!
What, in particular, is confusing about multiple spin wagers?
Additionally, do you think some players may now bet the new colors more so than red / black since they pay more than even money.
Not really. I mean is 2 to 1 so much more exciting than even money ? and 7/5 Whoopee !
The craps terminology is only being used in this forum because I thought it would be easier for game developers to understand. This terminology would NEVER be used to describe the game to roulette players.
Roulette players understand numbers, colors, dozens, and neighborhoods.....which is exactly how it would be explained to players.
When explained to a PLAYER, the additions that have been added are merely multiple-spin, colored, neighborhood, bets.
Quote: buzzpaff" Additionally, do you think some players may now bet the new colors more so than red / black since they pay more than even money. "
Not really. I mean is 2 to 1 so much more exciting than even money ? and 7/5 Whoopee !
I agree with you that 2:1 is more exciting and there are two more 2:1 wagers where the player gets more chances to win instead of a single outcome.
Do you ever bet Red or Black or are you strictly a dozens / column bettor?
Dealers like to "sweep" the losers in one motion towards them and you have just created a barrier between them and the outside, one spin bets that they want to sweep in as losers.
Not sure how to solve this geographic problem except to make the neighborhood bets on the extreme outside of the layout so that everything inside them that is a "one spin" loser can be swept in by the dealer without any interference or confusion by players claiming that the dealer swept in their neighborhood bet on a non-white out spin.
Quote: doubleluck
What, in particular, is confusing about multiple spin wagers?
Too many betting options, too many rules, too many confusing
payouts. If you watch people play roulette, you can go an entire
shift and never see anybody place a bet on a double street. They
aren't going to start just because you've screwed with the payouts.
They are 95% concerned with the 35/1 payout on the inside numbers,
thats why they're playing. 7/5 won't interest them, no matter how
long they get to leave their chips there. In fact, I can see them moving
a chip to the inside after it sits on a colored space for a couple spins.
Seriously.
Quote: ParadigmWhile there is a lengthy debate with EvenBob & other Forum members on another thread about whether Roulette is "confusing to understand", what I will agree with from the dealer perspective is that you have a bunch of multiple spin bets sandwiched in between the main layout and the other one spin bets of Red/Black, Even/Odd and 1-18 and 2-18.
Dealers like to "sweep" the losers in one motion towards them and you have just created a barrier between them and the outside, one spin bets that they want to sweep in as losers.
Not sure how to solve this geographic problem except to make the neighborhood bets on the extreme outside of the layout so that everything inside them that is a "one spin" loser can be swept in by the dealer without any interference or confusion by players claiming that the dealer swept in their neighborhood bet on a non-white out spin.
I agree that dealers like to sweep the outside bets. However, from a security standpoint, bets that pay higher odds are usually further away from the player and closer to the dealer so that it's harder for them to take shots. As a result, we don't believe that casinos would like the bets on the outside of the main layout either.
Get rid of the red & black "push" spaces.
Get rid of the white "It's like a 7 out loser".
If anything should be like a 7 out loser, it should be the two spaces that are already considered "the house's numbers": 0 and 00.
I also think it's too confusing.
This under rules seems to refer to craps I think. Unless we are talking horse races !
Quote: doubleluck
1. Riverboat Roulette is a roulette variation that allows players the ability to play traditional roulette
How do you figure that? Where can I bet on a double street
and get the traditional 5/1 payout or a single street to get
11/1? Those options are gone, so I can't play traditional
roulette on this layout.
Quote: EvenBobHow do you figure that? Where can I bet on a double street
and get the traditional 5/1 payout or a single street to get
11/1? Those options are gone, so I can't play traditional
roulette on this layout.
Sure you can Bob! We didn't change a thing with the traditional game!!!! No different that a traditional blackjack player opting not to bet on the side-bet -- it doesn't affect the normal game.
Quote: buzzpaff" 3. All multiple-spin, colored, neighborhoods are essentially offered as place bets and pay odds on winning wagers. "
This under rules seems to refer to craps I think. Unless we are talking horse races !
It DOES refer to craps...but I used those terms because I assumed it'd be easier for those who develop games would understand. So..I'll be sure to refer to those wagers ONLY as "multi-spin" wagers from now on.
This from the inventor of Poker for Roulette. I would place added value on his comments.
He is one of the few that can say " been there, done that" .
Quote: doubleluckIt DOES refer to craps...but I used those terms because I assumed it'd be easier for those who develop games would understand. So..I'll be sure to refer to those wagers ONLY as "multi-spin" wagers from now on.
I think you need a lot of work on the rules. More like an addendum rather than started by explainingg this is a new version of roulette.
Rules way, way too long. Try fitting all that on a rack card. NO WAY !
Quote: doubleluckSure you can Bob! .
So you're going to have a double street bet halfway
into a colored area and halfway into the inside, like
its supposed to be? And a dealer has to figure that
out on a colored space covered with colored ships?
Never gonna work, never gonna happen. That bet
is already confusing to dealers and it will get swept
in a normal situation, let alone one as convoluted as
this.
The bets Bob is referring to , are ingrained for most roulette players.
Quote: buzzpaffI just googled place bets and references are all craps or horse races. Which do you think CASINO patrons will relate place bets to ? Just asking.
I would explain the new bets as they were originally referred to as "multiple spin" wagers. Roulette players don't understand the term "Place Bets"....again, this term was used because I believed that my audience (this group) would be able to grasp it easier that way --- My Mistake.
Quote: DJTeddyBearI think you're putting too much craps thought into this. Roulette & Craps players are worlds apart. Sure, some players may play both, but not many.
Careful DJ.....Poker players and Roulette players are worlds apart as well!
I am not jumping up and down over this game, but really, the colored neighborhood bets are explained to new players as simply as this:
"You win if your color hits before a white space hits.....your bet is in play until either one of those two happen"
I agree that higher payouts are needed to make this interesting to players. I think this requires more white spaces (you have two reds, two blacks and two greens that are easily changed to white) and smaller neighborhoods or more neighbrhoods......what will it take to have all neighborhoods payout in the 4-1 to 10-1 range?
Quote: DJTeddyBearI think you're putting too much craps thought into this. Roulette & Craps players are worlds apart. Sure, some players may play both, but not many.
Get rid of the red & black "push" spaces.
Get rid of the white "It's like a 7 out loser".
If anything should be like a 7 out loser, it should be the two spaces that are already considered "the house's numbers": 0 and 00.
I also think it's too confusing.
DJ,
We believe that one of roulette's "problems" is that it has a high HE....by getting rid of the spaces.....we would make an even higher than average HE bet with a 14 space white neighborhood.
The term "White Out" is actually what is used when dealing the game. I only used the 7 out loser when I was speaking to someone who states in his profile that one of his favorite games is Craps. "White Out" is the term that is used in the game.
We thought about placing the 0 / 00 in the white neighborhood as you suggest, however, we believed that a new "twist" could be added -- making it where "multiple spin" wagers do not lose with a 0/00 outcome.....resulting in the only "Outside" bet where the player doesn't lose on 0/00 -- which also may be an attractive feature to outside bettors.
Quote: Paradigm
"You win if your color hits before a white space hits.....your bet is in play until either one of those two happen"
Also the payouts on the colored spaces make no
sense. The odds of any number hitting is exactly
the same, so the odds of any colored space hitting
is exactly the same. But your payouts don't reflect
that, they give the wrong impression that some
colored spaces are better bets than others, which
isn't true. The 2/1 spaces will hit exactly as often
as the 7/5 spaces.
OH NO! I see what you've done. If I bet on the first
colored space, and number 6 comes up, even though
its in the space I bet, I lose because its a white number.
Do you realize how much this will piss people off? I
don't think you understand roulette players at all..
Quote: EvenBobThe 2/1 spaces will hit exactly as often
as the 7/5 spaces.
Don't think this is right, I believe you are confusing the light blue and dark blue colors. All 2/1 payouts are 3 space neighborhoods and 7/5 payouts are 5 space neighborhoods.....am I missing something there?
Quote: ParadigmDon't think this is right, I believe you are confusing the light blue and dark blue colors. All 2/1 payouts are 3 space neighborhoods and 7/5 payouts are 5 space neighborhoods.....am I missing something there?
They all look like 6 number bets to me.
Quote: EvenBobAlso the payouts on the colored spaces make no
sense. The odds of any number hitting is exactly
the same, so the odds of any colored space hitting
is exactly the same. But your payouts don't reflect
that, they give the wrong impression that some
colored spaces are better bets than others, which
isn't true. The 2/1 spaces will hit exactly as often
as the 7/5 spaces.
We do have a version where we have 2:1 pay outs on 8 neighborhoods instead of 6. However, the odds on 3-spot neighborhoods are 5.26 but would result in 8 new betting options. If you think 6 neighborhoods are too many, we think 8 would be too many and even more "confusing".
You're correct is saying that the odds of any NUMBER hitting is the same as any other....therefore, you may not find betting a multi-spin neighborhoods attractive. We are playing into the notion where some will believe that it's easier to hit a GROUP of 5 numbers over a group of 3. Players may not be getting high payouts on a 5-spot neighborhood in your opinion, but they are exchanging that to get multiple chances to win. So, being able to win 5/38 ways is easier than 3/38.
Quote: doubleluckWe are playing into the notion where some will believe that it's easier to hit a GROUP of 5 numbers over a group of 3. Players may not be getting high payouts on a 5-spot neighborhood in your opinion, but they are exchanging that to get multiple chances to win. So, being able to win 5/38 ways is easier than 3/38.
Dude, you apparently have no idea how overwhelmingly
confusing this is, it'll never fly. Give it up while you can
and try something else. You'll have people rolling their
eyes at the expo and backing away from you making
the sign of the cross as they go..
Quote: EvenBob
OH NO! I see what you've done. If I bet on the first
colored space, and number 6 comes up, even though
its in the space I bet, I lose because its a white number.
Bob,
If you bet on the "yellow multi-spin space" and the number 6 comes up, you get paid 2:1
If you're saying that the "first" colored space is "Royal Blue" and 6 comes up, you DON'T lose -- you push.
White numbers only affect those who bet on any of the six "multiple spin colored neighborhood" spots. If a white number comes up, those "colored multiple spin neighborhood" bets lose.
The circles that surround each number on the layout are merely there to identify which numbers comprise the "neighborhood" and serve as a means to let the dealer know which "multiple spin neighborhood bet" wins.
Quote: EvenBobDude, you apparently have no idea how overwhelmingly
confusing this is, it'll never fly. Give it up while you can
and try something else. You'll have people rolling their
eyes at the expo and backing away from you making
the sign of the cross as they go..
LOL -- I sure hope not....but thanks for the heads-up and maybe I'll understand while they're sprinkling Holy Water at me!
You don't need to play poker to be able to recognize a pair, straight or three of a kind. And I'm not married to the name, or the terminology used on the pay tables.Quote: ParadigmCareful DJ.....Poker players and Roulette players are worlds apart as well!Quote: DJTeddyBearI think you're putting too much craps thought into this. Roulette & Craps players are worlds apart. Sure, some players may play both, but not many.
Like DoubleLuck's use of craps terms, I think it's easier to understand Poker For Roulette by using poker terms.
DoubleLuck -
I had not seen your comments about craps terminology before I made my comments.
Regardless, I still think it's complicated.
But, to continue with the terminology, are they really like Place bets, in that if they neither win nor lose, they can be taken down or capped? If so, then absolutely put them all the way outside on the layout, closest to the players. If not then there are security issues to think about.
Actually, that's NOT what I suggested. My suggestion was to make the white spaces work like the other colors (or maybe even give it another color), get rid of the red/black push spaces, and have the 0 and 00 be the only loser spaces. These are traditionally referred to as "House Numbers" so maybe they should be the loser numbers.Quote: doubleluckWe thought about placing the 0 / 00 in the white neighborhood as you suggest.
The "high" house edge is not a problem. If it were, every double zero table would be replaced with single zero. You don't see that happening, do you? Have you ever seen players at a double zero while there's a single zero available with the same betting limits? People are weird, and some of them actually think the single zero is a better deal for the casino because there's one less way to win.Quote: doubleluckWe believe that one of roulette's "problems" is that it has a high HE....by getting rid of the spaces.....we would make an even higher than average HE.
As far as your bet goes, you could easily make the 0 & 00 be the only losers, and every other number a winner, and still have a reasonable house edge by manipulating the size of the groups and payouts.
Quote: doubleluck
If you bet on the "yellow multi-spin space" and the number 6 comes up, you get paid 2:1
If you're saying that the "first" colored space is "Royal Blue" and 6 comes up, you DON'T lose -- you push.
White numbers only affect those who bet on any of the six "multiple spin colored neighborhood" spots. If a white number comes up, those "colored multiple spin neighborhood" bets lose.
The circles that surround each number on the layout are merely there to identify which numbers comprise the "neighborhood" and serve as a means to let the dealer know which "multiple spin neighborhood bet" wins.
Holy crap, I didn't even see the yellow numbers in
the wheel! Seriously, you don't think this is confusing?
You actually think you can make a player understand
this mess in 30 seconds? Cause thats all you have, the
casino isn't going to let you take 30min out of every
hour to explain how this thing works.
Roulette as it stands is damn near perfection. Don't
mess with perfection.
Having only 0/00 as losers, the biggest payout would be 2-1, only if you were betting a single number to hit before the 0/00
Quote: thecesspit
Having only 0/00 as losers, the biggest payout would be 2-1, only if you were betting a single number to hit before the 0/00
Right off the bat, there is no dealer in his right
mind that would ever attempt dealing this. Way
too much room for multiple dealer errors and
dealer reprimands.
Quote: DJTeddyBear
Actually, that's NOT what I suggested. My suggestion was to make the white spaces work like the other colors (or maybe even give it another color), get rid of the red/black push spaces, and have the 0 and 00 be the only loser spaces. These are traditionally referred to as "House Numbers" so maybe they should be the loser numbers.
As far as your bet goes, you could easily make the 0 & 00 be the only losers, and every other number a winner, and still have a reasonable house edge by manipulating the size of the groups and payouts.
I think I understand what you're saying with regard to the zeros and spaces now. We have a few versions where there are no spaces and where the zeros are their own "neighborhood", as well.
Quote: EvenBobQuote: doubleluck
If you bet on the "yellow multi-spin space" and the number 6 comes up, you get paid 2:1
If you're saying that the "first" colored space is "Royal Blue" and 6 comes up, you DON'T lose -- you push.
White numbers only affect those who bet on any of the six "multiple spin colored neighborhood" spots. If a white number comes up, those "colored multiple spin neighborhood" bets lose.
The circles that surround each number on the layout are merely there to identify which numbers comprise the "neighborhood" and serve as a means to let the dealer know which "multiple spin neighborhood bet" wins.
Holy crap, I didn't even see the yellow numbers in
the wheel! Seriously, you don't think this is confusing?
You actually think you can make a player understand
this mess in 30 seconds? Cause thats all you have, the
casino isn't going to let you take 30min out of every
hour to explain how this thing works.
Roulette as it stands is damn near perfection. Don't
mess with perfection.
Thanks for letting me know that traditional roulette is so "perfect" while simultaneously describing it as "confusing". How did you EVER master it? lol
There is already a Roulette variant that uses 6 colors, instead of the traditional 2.
There is a page about it on the Wizard of Odds site: Diamond Roulette.
When I was last at Taj Mahal, I took a picture of it. Sorry for the odd angles. Click for larger versions.
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Quote: EvenBobThey all look like 6 number bets to me.
AHHH...I think I understand the confusion now. Those betting options are are not the 6 numbers directly above them on the layout.....look at the wheel!!!!
