Hoppin’ Hotness™

gone redone

It took me a few reads to understand what you are trying to do here, but I think I have it. Is this what you are saying--

First die roll is 4-6. Mark the 4 and 6. On next rolls if a 4 comes, the outcome of the other die determines where a marker is placed. Fill those markers and win the bet.


If this is what you are saying, here are my thoughts.

1. It is an interesting alternative to the fire-bet, good for players who do not want to wait around that long.

2. It gives more preceived value to players than a one-roll hop-bet.

3. It might be too confusing for players and dealers alike. Rmember, "six" and "nine" are spelled out because dealers are looking at them upside-dwon, and they are easy to confuse on the fly as "6" and "9." You are kind of asking a dealer to do the same thing. Look at one die then see if it qualifies to get the result on the other die. Then look at the other die to see if it qualifies to mark the result of the first. And this all needs to be done in the very short time before the stickman has to rake the dice to the safety of center-field.

This would require changing stick-calls. Instead of "Six, easy six, don'ts and comes travel to the six" you have to say, "six, easy six, FORTY-TWO (42) six, don'ts and comes travel to the six" to properly call and mark this bet. You would have to have the boxman marking this bet. Base dealers would not have time. Consider if casinos want that.

My instinct is that you need to ask yourself if current craps players will make this bet. Having explained craps to dozens of new players I expect this bet it far too complicated for new players to understand.

Quote: AZDuffman

It took me a few reads to understand what you are trying to do here, but I think I have it. Is this what you are saying--

First die roll is 4-6. Mark the 4 and 6. On next rolls if a 4 comes, the outcome of the other die determines where a marker is placed. Fill those markers and win the bet.


If this is what you are saying, here are my thoughts.

1. It is an interesting alternative to the fire-bet, good for players who do not want to wait around that long.

2. It gives more preceived value to players than a one-roll hop-bet.

3. It might be too confusing for players and dealers alike. Rmember, "six" and "nine" are spelled out because dealers are looking at them upside-dwon, and they are easy to confuse on the fly as "6" and "9." You are kind of asking a dealer to do the same thing. Look at one die then see if it qualifies to get the result on the other die. Then look at the other die to see if it qualifies to mark the result of the first. And this all needs to be done in the very short time before the stickman has to rake the dice to the safety of center-field.

The Base Dealer to the right of the Box-person is responsible for marking the Lo-Side, and the other Base Dealer is responsible for marking the Hi-Side. Example the first roll is 6-2, the Lo-Side Dealer only has to pay attention to any roll that has a 2 in it and mark accordingly each roll thereafter, the other Base Dealer has to pay attention for any roll containing a 6 and mark accordingly each roll thereafter.

Quote: AZDuffman

This would require changing stick-calls. Instead of "Six, easy six, don'ts and comes travel to the six" you have to say, "six, easy six, FORTY-TWO (42) six, don'ts and comes travel to the six" to properly call and mark this bet. You would have to have the boxman marking this bet. Base dealers would not have time. Consider if casinos want that.

As far as stick calls go, I'm already trained to say "eight easy eight, six-two hopping, down behind, no-field, don'ts and comes travel to the eight". This is especially true when a player has a hop bet. This is common practice in the Midwest since inception of hop bets here.

Quote: AZDuffman

My instinct is that you need to ask yourself if current craps players will make this bet. Having explained craps to dozens of new players I expect this bet it far too complicated for new players to understand.

As far as first explanation of the game, it was taking from the proprietary works. The best way to explain to the players on a live game is as follows:

The Lo-Hoppin' bet wins if four or more hop bets are rolled, that contains the outcome of the lowest die rolled on the first roll.
The Hi-Hoppin' bet wins if four or more hop bets are rolled, that contains the outcome of the highest die rolled on the first roll.
The Hi/Lo-Hoppin' bet wins if both the Lo-Hoppin' and Hi-Hoppin' bet wins.


Thank you AZDuffman for taking the time to read and reply to this post.

Christ, you mean there aren't enough craps bets already?

I think I understand the bets...

I don't think you can get six hi-hoppin numbers and six lo-hoppin numbers as one of the six numbers on the other dice will result in a seven, right? Or are you saying that to get six of either hi & lo, the bets will win on the unique roll of seven that includes the marked hi or lo die?

My gut reaction here is that this bet doesn't offer much more than another version of all small/all tall/all or nothing....and it is a lot more complicated to understand and deal. I quite like the small/tall/all bet, but even it is being met with some resistance by dealers because of the additional tracking involved......

I say keep working on it, I don't think you are quite there yet......and what Mosca says above is true, unless you have a greater than 50-1 bet to add to the table, there really are enough craps bets out there.

Quote: Paradigm

I think I understand the bets...

I don't think you can get six hi-hoppin numbers and six lo-hoppin numbers as one of the six numbers on the other dice will result in a seven, right?

You are right....

Quote: Paradigm

Or are you saying that to get six of either hi & lo, the bets will win on the unique roll of seven that includes the marked hi or lo die?

Yes...

Quote: Paradigm

My gut reaction here is that this bet doesn't offer much more than another version of all small/all tall/all or nothing....and it is a lot more complicated to understand and deal. I quite like the small/tall/all bet, but even it is being met with some resistance by dealers because of the additional tracking involved......

Actually these bets offer the best attributes of both the Firebet and the All's bets. Multiple payouts per bet as with firebet, multiple bets to bet on as with the All's, better hit frequencies than both.

Quote: Paradigm

I say keep working on it, I don't think you are quite there yet......and what Mosca says above is true, unless you have a greater than 50-1 bet to add to the table, there really are enough craps bets out there.

All three of these bets should have a top payout that exceeds 50 to 1 payouts.

I read it several times and still don't get it.

MAybe it would help if you posted several series of rolls, and what markers are set on each of those rolls.

Quote: allinriverking

Quote: Paradigm
Or are you saying that to get six of either hi & lo, the bets will win on the unique roll of seven that includes the marked hi or lo die?

Yes...

So to get six "hits", you have to roll the other combinations that don't add up to 7 and then roll the combo that does add to 7 as your sixth "hit"? Is that right?

My point with the "50-1" comment is that it has already been done with Fire and Small/Tall/All. You have to ask why an operator would add your bet over those two.....and saying you have the best of both isn't likely to get you that far. Those are both established side bets.......what you need to be able to say is Hoppin Hotness is "lights out" better than the two current offerings because......"your hit rate is five times more likely and still offers a 50 or 75-1 payout potential" or something like that.

What would you say to an operator that asks why they should get their deal staff and players to put in the effort to learn your new side bet? What is it about your game that makes the effort of learing it worth it to the player and tolerable by the deal staff (and keep in mind, many in both of those groups already know the Fire and Small/Tall/All bet)?

On the learning curve front, Hoppin Hotness is more confusing than either of those bets as illustrated by folks not getting the bets when you wrote out your explanation. DJ has studied a lot of games and it isn't clear to him. I have studied a lot of games and craps is my game of choice and I am asking questions trying to figure out how to get to your top payout. Your average player is not nearly as educated about how various games work than members on the forum. I encourage you to think about how you can make it simpler even if you have to skinny down the game to just one side (hi or lo) or all the outcomes or something else.

There may be something here that can improve on the Fire & Small/etc......and if it is out there, I really want you to find it! It is just, IMHO, the current format of Hoppin Hotness is not it.

" It took me a few reads to understand what you are trying to do here, but I think I have it."

" I think I understand the bets..."

"I read it several times and still don't get it."

" So to get six "hits", you have to roll the other combinations that don't add up to 7 and then roll the combo that does add to 7 as your sixth "hit"? Is that right? "

I am not a dice player, but the above were all posted by players.

Do you THINK it is time to RETHINK ??????

While Buzz makes a very concise point of what several of us were saying, the more I think about it, the more I think that it probably isn't all that confusing of a game, but that it has been described here very badly.

So a "rethink" of the idea is not needed, but a rethink of the description, absolutely.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

.......but that it has been described here very badly.

So a "rethink" of the idea is not needed, but a rethink of the description, absolutely.

But DJ, think about that statement......if the developer needs to re-think the description of the game, the game almost by definition needs to be simplified.

I recall PaigowDan's interview by the Wiz on new games where he summarizes the general concept of a new games in one sentence:

EZ Pai Gow: "It is PGP, but without the commission"
BJ Switch: "Play 2 hands of BJ and you get to switch cards to make better hands"

Sentences for other new game concepts could be:

Wiz's Three Card Mulligan: It is three card poker, but you can draw a new hand for an additional bet
AceCraakers Double D craps bet: Roll at least 4 hard ways before a 7
Poker for Roulette: Make a poker hand out of the numbers generated in 3, 4 or 5 successive roulette spins

I just don't know what the one sentence general summary for Hoppin Hotness is going to be as the game stands right now.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

While Buzz makes a very concise point of what several of us were saying, the more I think about it, the more I think that it probably isn't all that confusing of a game, but that it has been described here very badly.

So a "rethink" of the idea is not needed, but a rethink of the description, absolutely.

The descripton seems to be hard to follow without a layout to explain. A pic is worth 1,000 words after all.

FWIW, my comments were based on Wizard's #1 Commandment, "Keep it Simple." This bet will take some time to explain to a seasoned player. and seasoned players already have their "own bets." Unless they are a dealer, I have yet to meet a player that can describe all the bets in Craps already. I've had players try to argue with me that I could not remove my "Don't," and at the same time another player asked (politely) what the "Don't" bet is.

So I think a dealer could explain this bet to a seasoned player in more than 30 but less than 60 seconds, if they were at the table and had the bet on the layout as a visual aid. OTOH, a newbie will be totally lost in it. This is my educated opinion as a person who has taught craps to 50-100 people over the last 2+ years. That does not qualify me to the level of a casino-teacher, but I will say that the same things confuse newbies all the time.

To the OP, if you want to discuss feel free to PM me here.

Maybe I should have said, "A rethink might not be needed..."

It's not that I disagree with you. I DO agree that all games should be able to be described in a sentence.

My point was that a game inventor might, because they have been living and breathing with the game 24/7, might not see the obvious fact that the description is vague.

---

To add to your examples:

House Money: Take the house's money you won on a side bet, and use it to cap the bet on the basic game.

Agree DJ.......all is not lost here in this game.....there may indeed be a workout that makes sense and I would encourage the OP to keep tweaking.

I would advise tweaking it to be simpler and easier to explain.....that one sentence test is a good one, but even passing that doesn't mean success.

As you and I both know game development is a long process and right now neither of us have a game on any floor....but we are tweaking what we have in attempt to get there eventually :-)!

I am working on my game as well, but "tweakers' is street talk for a meth head.

Quote: allinriverking

How it Works:
Players may bet any of the above bets when a game first opens, and after any total of seven is rolled.

I asked many Craps dealers a bunch of questions but have never heard this one.

What does "game first open" mean?
Is this a different way to say the come out roll?
If it is, why not just say the come out roll?

The game of Craps has it's own language and goes too fast for beginners to understand the many different terms and lingo.

I would have to pass on your bet, it makes my head hurt trying to understand it.
I rolled 4 point numbers for the Firebet and everyone at the table was happy and I knew why.

The two dice hi-lo numbers 4 times
what?
can you simplify that?

MustangSally

The definition of a Comeout Roll is any roll when there is no point established yet. So saying on the Comeout roll would be wrong, because the bet can play over from having one point established, point made and then a new point established.

The Lo-Hoppin’ bet wins when the shooter rolls four, five or all six different hop bets that contain the same lowest die rolled on the first roll after bet was made.
The Hi-Hoppin’ bet wins when the shooter rolls four, five or all six different hop bets that contain the same highest die rolled on the first roll after bet was made.
The Hi/Lo-Hoppin’ bet wins if both the Lo-Hoppin' and Hi-Hoppin' bets win.

Hoppin' Hotness bets are placed.



First Roll

Roll outcome totals seven - the bets lose, open bets up again.

Roll outcome is any other outcome - Dealer on right-side of table sets the mark for the Lo-Side by placing a "on" button(one's used to turn on player's place-bets when normally off) on the side of the numbered circle that corresponds to the lowest die rolled that roll, Dealer on left-side of table sets the mark for the Hi-Side by placing a "on" button on the side of the numbered circle that corresponds to the highest die rolled that roll. Example: 5-3 rolls, Dealer on right-side of table places "on" button on the side of the circle numbered "3", Dealer on left-side of table places "on" button on the side of the circle numbered "5".



Next Roll

Roll outcome totals seven - the bets lose, remove the "on" buttons from the marked circles and open bets up again.

Roll outcome has the same lowest die and same highest die rolled as the first roll - Dealer on right-side of table places a marking lammer(coin) on numbered circle that matches the outcome of the other die rolled that roll. Example: 5-3 was first roll outcome, 5-3 now rolls, Dealer on right-side of table places marking lammer on the circle numbered "5". Dealer on left-side of table places a marking lammer(coin) on numbered circle that matches the outcome of the other die rolled that roll. Example: 5-3 was first roll outcome, 5-3 now rolls, Dealer on left-side of table places marking lammer on the circle numbered "3".

Roll outcome only has the same lowest die rolled as the first roll - Dealer on right-side of table places a marking lammer(coin) on numbered circle that matches the outcome of the other die rolled that roll. Example: 5-3 was first roll outcome, 3-1 now rolls, Dealer on right-side of table places marking lammer on the circle numbered "1".

Roll outcome only has the same highest die rolled as the first roll - Dealer on left-side of table places a marking lammer(coin) on numbered circle that matches the outcome of the other die rolled that roll. Example: 5-3 was first roll outcome, 5-1 now rolls, Dealer on left-side of table places marking lammer on the circle numbered "1".

Roll outcome has neither the lowest or highest die rolled as first roll - Dealers mark nothing.



All rolls will be treated as a Next Roll unless it is the First Roll, or if there is at least three numbered circles marked with a marking lammer on the same side of table.

In which case, the following exceptions will be made:

Roll outcome totals seven that has the same lowest die rolled as first roll - Dealer on right-side of table places a marking lammer(coin) on numbered circle that matches the outcome of the other die rolled that roll. Example: 5-3 was first roll outcome, 4-3 now rolls, Dealer on right-side of table places marking lammer on the circle numbered "4". All winning bets will be paid and all losing bets will be taking at this point. All marking lammers and "on" buttons will be removed and all bets will be reopened to be bet again.

Roll outcome totals seven that has the same highest die rolled as first roll - Dealer on left-side of table places a marking lammer(coin) on numbered circle that matches the outcome of the other die rolled that roll. Example: 5-3 was first roll outcome, 5-2 now rolls, Dealer on left-side of table places marking lammer on the circle numbered "2". All winning bets will be paid and all losing bets will be taking at this point. All marking lammers and "on" buttons will be removed and all bets will be reopened to be bet again.



Keeping in mind there are six numbered circles, 1 through 6, on both sides of the table.

Side-note: The Firebet and the All's bets lose on a seven out if all of the required spots are not lammered, no if's and's or but's about it. The Hoppin' Hotness Bets have a chance to win on a seven out, when a specific seven is rolled. Example: 5-3 is first roll outcome, then 3-2 rolls, then 3-3 rolls, then 3-1 rolls then 4-3 rolls(seven out). Because the 4-3 allowed for the fourth spot to be lammered, the Lo-Hoppin' bet now wins; if it was seven out because of 6-1 or 5-2 the Lo-Hoppin' bet would lose.

I now totally understand the bet....better explanation for sure with the seven examples and marking the last lammer examples on a seven.

Placing the last lammer and simultaneously quickly clearing out the losing pass line/odds is going to be a dealer sticking point. I might suggest you make any seven a loser on both Hi & Lo sides and simply make the high payout at the five numbers not including the combo that includes seven. All the dealer wants to do on that seven roll is lock up those losers as quick as possible. Plus it simplifies the game....any seven loses no matter what.

The problem is going to be getting that all explained to a player, by a dealer that likley doesn't want one more thing to track, in a noisy casino with players that are drinking. I believe ME has said that he has asked dealers in the past and many hate the small/tall/all bet as it is one more thing to track. If players love the game, they aren't going to have a choice and are going to have to deal games with that side bet on them. But it is an extremely high hurdle for a game to make it that the dealers don't like to deal.

I do see that you can put each bet into a sentence.....but you really have to pay attention to the sentence carefully to grasp it. You have to admit it is more complicated than "Play two BJ hands and you can switch cards between hands before hitting or standing" or "Make four hardway rolls before you roll a seven" or "roll all five small numbers (2-6) before rolling a seven".....The key will be simplifying and I don't have any other ideas for you on Hoppin Hot to do this.

There may be room for another long shot bet or competitor to the Fire & Small/Tall/All bets. You figured this one out as an option. As teliot has told me in the past, you have one game idea here....don't get married to it. Think about how you can change/adjust it [is that a better term Buzz :-)]. You have enough creativity to create the "Hoppin Hot" bets, what else do you have in that brain of yours or what more simplified game can Hoppin Hot become?

Quote: Mosca

Christ, you mean there aren't enough craps bets already?

Yeah, this Sic Bo for Craps is confusing, especially when referring to a circle as a die.
I pity the poor neophyte who wanders by and asks questions.

What deficiencies with hop bets were identified and are being resolved by this new and complex solution?

Quote: FleaStiff

Yeah, this Sic Bo for Craps is confusing, especially when referring to a circle as a die.
I pity the poor neophyte who wanders by and asks questions.

What deficiencies with hop bets were identified and are being resolved by this new and complex solution?

To simply put it, Hoppin' Hotness is a series of bets in Craps, that win when a set group of hop bets are rolled. The outcome of the first roll determines which set group of hop bets need to be rolled.

These new bets are multiple-roll resolved bets, whereas hop bets are single-roll resolved bets.

It's not rocket science.

Quote: allinriverking

It's not rocket science.

Then stop making it sound like rocket science.

Ok. I'm finally getting it. Keep that in mind. I'm a craps player and someone who WANTS to understand, and it's taking me some time to do so. And I only think I'm getting it.


For what it's worth, I was originally confused about what happens if a roll is 3-1 when the original roll was 5-3. I mean, the 3 was originally the low die, now it's the high die. You've cleared that up, thanks.

But then this begs the question: If the original roll was a hard way, then both sides are updated (or not) simultaneously, right?

And if the rolls are 5-3, 3-1, 3-1, nothing happens on that second 3-1, right?


I disagree with Paradigm's comment that any 7 should always lose.

First, doing that means it's impossible to get all six numbers. As I understand it, there is going to be different paylines for 4, 5, and 6 hits.
Second, his comment that it inteferes with the dealer's actions of clearing the table doesn't hold up. The same can be said of the Fire bet and All bet.
Third, the All bet waits until any 7 before paying. The Fire bet waits until a 7-out. So waiting paying after the 7 hits isn't an issue.

The only difference is that here, a 7 could still be a qualifier for an improved payout.


I'd change the operator's instructions to have the boxman rather than the base dealers handle the lammers. Admitedly, I've only seen one table with the All bet, but it was the boxman handling the lammers and bets, although he directed the dealers when a payout was needed.

Do not use "On" lammers or "coins". Use numbered lammers so that if the get hit with a die, it's easy to return them to the correct spot. That's why the All bet uses numbered lammers.



Having said all that, it is my beleif that this is not unique enough to hold the interest of the players or casino management. By that I mean, it's too similar to the All bets. And the All bets are much easier to explain.

To clear up some confusion, when the original roll is a double, let's say 6-6, then both the Lo-Side and Hi-Side will be marked whenever the outcome has a 6 in it. Example: first roll is 6-6, dealer will mark the 6 under both the Lo-Side and Hi-Side with an "on" button, next roll is 6-3, dealer will mark the 3 under both the Lo-Side and Hi-Side with a coin. Because of this, it is possible to have all 12 spots marked. Also, what may have not been made clear earlier was the Hi/Lo-Hoppin' bet wins when 8 or more spots are marked between both the Lo-Side and Hi-Side. Because of this it is possible to win the Lo-Hoppin' or Hi-Hoppin' with the Hi/Lo-Hoppin' bet. This is another difference between the All or Nothing bet and mine. I deal the All's at a casino now and we mark with coins, as does other nearby casinos. The reasoning I'm told is because they are already approved gaming equipment, as are the "on" buttons.

Why not let someone on a new game bet "The Fives, Hoppin'. Place a token when ever a roll with a Five in it occurs. Get the 5-1,5-3,5-4,5-5 and 5-6 to win the top prize before a 7-out. Same with any other number.

Or Just have the "High Hoppin'" bet. The high dice on the new roll sets the Hopping bet. Simplifies things down. I'm not sure the high and low is needed here?

Quote: thecesspit

Why not let someone on a new game bet "The Fives, Hoppin'. Place a token when ever a roll with a Five in it occurs. Get the 5-1,5-3,5-4,5-5 and 5-6 to win the top prize before a 7-out. Same with any other number.

Because you would have to keep markers for all roll outcomes.

Quote: thecesspit

Or Just have the "High Hoppin'" bet. The high dice on the new roll sets the Hopping bet. Simplifies things down. I'm not sure the high and low is needed here?

More bets equals more for the house, and by having both sides available and having the bet in which 8 or more need to be marked, allows for a nice size payout for its top payout when all 12 are marked..

Quote: allinriverking

More bets equals more for the house,

Only if it does not take away from bets already being made.
and this assumes that players will play this bet instead of all the other bets that get the dollar or equally the same.

That makes a large assumption that players will make more dollar bets covering all the side bets.

I do not see that happening.
Also, do you not fear a crazy dice toss that scatters all the lamers that mark this bet?

And my Craps table already has the Fire Bet, the All, Tall and Small bets.
Some other guy wants a Doubles bet added.
and another guy wants...

Now, turn the tables.
What about your new bets do YOU NOT like.
Play devil's advocate.

Quote: guido111

Only if it does not take away from bets already being made.
and this assumes that players will play this bet instead of all the other bets that get the dollar or equally the same.

That makes a large assumption that players will make more dollar bets covering all the side bets.

I do not see that happening.
Also, do you not fear a crazy dice toss that scatters all the lamers that mark this bet?

We have crazy dice tosses all the time on our all's bets, the coins or tokens are heavy enough that they are not phased or moved.

Quote: guido111

And my Craps table already has the Fire Bet, the All, Tall and Small bets.
Some other guy wants a Doubles bet added.
and another guy wants...

Now, turn the tables.
What about your new bets do YOU NOT like.
Play devil's advocate.

Honestly I have, and there isn't anything. The worst part of my bets, in my opinion, is the marking of the coins, that's already an issue with the all's that is being accepted now and dealt with. I will say as a dealer, I would prefer players put a toke bet on my bets than on a Firebet or any all bets. I'm tired of them being bet and not dropping them because it is so far and few between hits. I think other dealers would see how much more they are dropping on my bets, even if it is lower amounts, it is still something. And when a player sees their bet won for the crew, they are more apt to bet it again for them. How many times I've heard, "sorry guys I've been trying for you guys too, but they are just not hitting", as that player continues to bet them for themselves.