Ten Commandments for New Table Games
August 23rd, 2012 at 11:55:25 AM
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The following are my Ten Commandments for new game inventors. Note that these suggestions apply to new table games, not side bets and video-based games. These are not necessarily in order of importance.
Due credit should be given to Eliot Jacobson (our own teliot) who let me use and upload his own The Elements of a Successful Carnival Game. Our lists are not surprisingly similar. Much like my second commandment, this is my attempt to take an already good idea and put my own twist on it.
"Freedom of choice is what you've got.
Freedom from choice is what you want." -- Devo
I think I will talk about this on my radio show today. However, you are all the first to see this. As always, I welcome comments, corrections, and suggestions.
Due credit should be given to Eliot Jacobson (our own teliot) who let me use and upload his own The Elements of a Successful Carnival Game. Our lists are not surprisingly similar. Much like my second commandment, this is my attempt to take an already good idea and put my own twist on it.
- Thou Shalt Keep it Simple
- Thou Shalt Covet Games that are Already Popular
- Thou Shalt Keep the House Edge Under 5%
- Thou Shalt Not Use Unfamiliar Equipment
- Thou Shalt Not Combine Existing Games
- Thou Shalt Name Thy Game Well
- Thou Shalt Emphasize Winning
- Thou Shalt Remember thy Casino Staff
- Thou Shalt Protect Thy Game from Advantage Play
- Thou Shalt Not Skimp on Professional Help
A good standard is that you should be able to teach a new player the rules in under thirty seconds. It slows down a game while the dealer explains the rules, players won't have the patience to learn something complicated, and the more complicated the game is the more likely the dealer is to make errors. Side bets should be limited to one.
The more complicated a game, the more dealer errors there will be, which are a major reason many games fail. Usually a player will keep his mouth shut when an error favors him, but conveniently alert the dealer when it would favor the casino. Casino management tend to put their worst dealers on new games, which aren't expected to make as much money, and are thus an easy mark when dealing a new game.
Successful new table games take a game that is already popular and add a new twist to it. Namely poker, blackjack, and baccarat -- in that order. I have seen many game inventors try to reinvent craps and roulette, and the number to have any kind of financial success, to my knowledge, is zero.
New game inventors frequently make the error of trying to butcher the player with a huge house edge. You can shear a sheep many times, but slaughter it only once. The opposite also happens sometimes, where inventors wish to release a game with a player advantage, under the incorrect notion that player errors will swing the odds back towards the casino. No game with a player advantage will last long. Well-financed advantage players will take it down like cavemen hunting a mammoth.
If you're going to do a card game, it should use standard 52-card decks. Using a joker is ill-advised, except for pai gow poker variants. Dice should absolutely be the standard cubes. If you think using one of the Euclidean solids would be a fresh idea instead of cubes, stop right there. That idea has crashed and burned many times already. Likewise, non-standard roulette wheels have been tried many times, and none of them have lasted long. Don't even get me started on such things as spinners and dreidels.
Do not combine two or more popular games together. It has been tried many times, and never gone far. This is especially true of combining blackjack to poker. If you think you're the first to think of that, trust me, you're in the company a lot of a lot of game inventors who struck out in three swings. Combining two different popular games in a casino has about the same chance of success as Wendy's would have of serving chili and a milkshake in the same cup.
Good names are easy to remember and contain words that are reminiscent of winning, excitement, and/or happiness.
The layout, rule cards, and training of the dealers should emphasize the rules for winning, not losing. Any terminology unique to the game should also emphasize luck or money.
For a game to make it must be liked by both players and dealers. Games should be easy for dealers to deal and floor supervisors to protect. For example, if you make a player against dealer game, and the dealer must divide his cards somehow, as in pai gow poker, the dealer "house way" strategy should balance simplicity and power, with the emphasis on simplicity.
Some very smart people make careers out of exploiting new casino games. You do not want to make it easy for them. To start, new games should be vetted for card counting, hole carding, and player collussion.
An experienced mathematician and intellectual property attorney should be hired to thoroughly vet a game to ensure it holds water mathematically, will have market appeal, and the idea hasn't already been taken. If you can't afford the $10,000 to $20,000 this is likely to cost, then you're probably in the wrong business.
"Freedom of choice is what you've got.
Freedom from choice is what you want." -- Devo
I think I will talk about this on my radio show today. However, you are all the first to see this. As always, I welcome comments, corrections, and suggestions.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 23rd, 2012 at 12:08:46 PM
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Quote:A good standard is that you should be able to teach a new player the rules in under thirty seconds.
Explain the idea, or give sufficient understanding of the rules to start playing, not necessarily teach the complete rules, I think.
Quote:9. Thou Shalt Emphasize Winning
The layout, rule cards, and training of the dealers should emphasize the rules for winning, not losing. Any terminology unique to the game should also emphasize luck or money.
This partially overlaps with (4). Maybe it could be folded into (4), at least parts about words.
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
August 23rd, 2012 at 12:12:26 PM
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Yay!! My awesomely named "Cameltoe Poker" still has a shot!!
Someday, joor goin' to see the name of Googie Gomez in lights and joor goin' to say to joorself, "Was that her?" and then joor goin' to answer to joorself, "That was her!" But you know somethin' mister? I was always her yuss nobody knows it! - Googie Gomez
August 23rd, 2012 at 12:19:41 PM
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All this can be tranlated to: Use common sense. I
didn't see one rule here that couldn't be followed
with: DUH!
didn't see one rule here that couldn't be followed
with: DUH!
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 23rd, 2012 at 12:30:27 PM
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Quote: WizardThou Shalt Covet Games that are Already Popular
Successful new table games take a game that is already popular and add a new twist to it. Namely poker, blackjack, and baccarat -- in that order. I have seen many game inventors try to reinvent craps and roulette, and the number to have any kind of financial success, to my knowledge, is zero.
I am waiting for this commandment to be broken successfully.....thinking this decade it will happen......I can dream, can't I?
August 23rd, 2012 at 1:09:48 PM
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word missing in #8
you're probably in wrong business. you're probably in the wrong business.
you're probably in wrong business. you're probably in the wrong business.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
August 23rd, 2012 at 1:13:05 PM
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Based upon the content of the phone calls and emails I had with Mike while he was helping me with Poker For Roulette, um, you'd think this was the ONLY commandment! Then again, I may have had a good handle on the others....Quote: Wizard1. Thou Shalt Keep it Simple
Although I haven't actually played it, from the descriptions I've seen, it seems that Mike's own Mulligan Poker follows every one of those rules. No wonder he scored so highly at the focus group. I'm looking forward to trying it at G2E...
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 23rd, 2012 at 1:23:31 PM
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Quote: WizardYou can sheer a sheep many times....
shear.
Quote: WizardTo start, new games should be vetted for card counting, hole carding, and player collussion.
collusion.
Rule 6, ill-advised, not il-advised.
Hey, it proves I read the whole thing.
A falling knife has no handle.
August 23rd, 2012 at 1:43:42 PM
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Quote: ParadigmI am waiting for this commandment to be broken successfully.....thinking this decade it will happen......I can dream, can't I?
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/tables/8480-new-money-uit-31-2-7-house-edge-1-7-element-of-risk-paytable/
Resist ANFO Boston PRISM Stormfront IRA Freedom CIA Obama
August 23rd, 2012 at 2:04:34 PM
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You also have 7-14-21 out there that has a couple of installs.....it is going to happen with one of these original new games!
August 23rd, 2012 at 2:15:23 PM
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Thanks for the corrections thus far.
Regarding the second commandment, I admit that some games not based on the three biggies have had some success. 7-14-21, as mentioned, I think is a good game, although the Palms did yank it. One might also point to Casino War, although that is based on a popular game too. There was also a game called Catch a Wave at Foxwoods for years, although that was based on Card Sharks, which many people know. Nevertheless, I still say the odds of success are significantly better going off of poker, blackjack, or baccarat.
Thanks for the kind words on Mulligan Poker. However, it should be noted that even if a game passes all these tests, it is still far from guaranteed from success. I think my Ties Win Blackjack game would have passed these ten tests too, and that has not gone past field trial.
Regarding the second commandment, I admit that some games not based on the three biggies have had some success. 7-14-21, as mentioned, I think is a good game, although the Palms did yank it. One might also point to Casino War, although that is based on a popular game too. There was also a game called Catch a Wave at Foxwoods for years, although that was based on Card Sharks, which many people know. Nevertheless, I still say the odds of success are significantly better going off of poker, blackjack, or baccarat.
Thanks for the kind words on Mulligan Poker. However, it should be noted that even if a game passes all these tests, it is still far from guaranteed from success. I think my Ties Win Blackjack game would have passed these ten tests too, and that has not gone past field trial.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 23rd, 2012 at 2:34:16 PM
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As an advisor to a casino, can you tell what general return percentage they expect from a new game, or is it more about total dollars?
August 23rd, 2012 at 3:21:01 PM
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Quote: WizardThou Shalt Covet Games that are Already Popular
Successful new table games take a game that is already popular and add a new twist to it. Namely poker, blackjack, and baccarat -- in that order. I have seen many game inventors try to reinvent craps and roulette, and the number to have any kind of financial success, to my knowledge, is zero.
This kind of seems to be missing the point of why those games fail, I think. It seems to me that in the pits where you'll be launching a new game, roulette and certainly craps are going to be more popular than baccarat, won't they? Think it might have more to do with the more obvious thing those three games have in common - namely, that cards make it easier to repurpose equipment, so less overhead. Nothing to do with popularity.
The trick to poker is learning not to beat yourself up for your mistakes too much, and certainly not too little, but just the right amount.
August 23rd, 2012 at 5:31:50 PM
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What 24Bingo said has merit. Cards are easy to operate, craps and Roulette less so.
As for Bob saying it's pure common sense is not true.
It is UNCOMMON sense that finds and creates that really elegant killer app of a new game that's leagues beyond the ordinary new stuff that'll fail.
What Mike gave us were the parameters that many either don't know, or don't practice and utilize.
Nothing of elegance or worthiness is discovered or invented UNTIL it is invented, at which point people then say, "Duh! I missed it!" I say that many times looking at other stuff.
This is a good thread going into G2E
As for Bob saying it's pure common sense is not true.
It is UNCOMMON sense that finds and creates that really elegant killer app of a new game that's leagues beyond the ordinary new stuff that'll fail.
What Mike gave us were the parameters that many either don't know, or don't practice and utilize.
Nothing of elegance or worthiness is discovered or invented UNTIL it is invented, at which point people then say, "Duh! I missed it!" I say that many times looking at other stuff.
This is a good thread going into G2E
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 23rd, 2012 at 5:49:29 PM
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I think #11 might be to use existing equipment. Changing the layout on a standard BJ table is much easier than making room for a roulette table with two wheels.
Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication - Leonardo da Vinci
August 23rd, 2012 at 5:51:47 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan
As for Bob saying it's pure common sense is not true.
Most of those rules are common sense. Did you invent
a whole new casino game? You used common sense
and improved one that was already there.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 23rd, 2012 at 5:57:28 PM
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Quote: EvenBobMost of those rules are common sense. Did you invent
a whole new casino game? You used common sense
and improved one that was already there.
Yes, I invented several new casino games, as did a few others here on this forum.
The invention of a new game requires:
- uncommon sense - seeing something novel that no one else saw and implemented. Switch is a fine example here.
- hard work (debugging the game's premise, creating the procedures, reviewing the math, making sure there is a clear patent path without infringement), etc.
- trialing the game and making subsequent changes,
- etc.
Even for Mike's guidelines on new games, you would be amazed at how hard it is to implement and practice such "common sense" advice, and how far from this common sense list that a designer will bring his game into non-sense territory.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 23rd, 2012 at 6:15:21 PM
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Quote: Paigowdan
- uncommon sense - seeing something novel that no one else saw and implemented.
But we all saw Paigow, it was already here. You used
common sense and didn't totally reinvent it, you just
tweaked it.
Why don't you help out Dave with Poker for Roulette?
Tell him what to make it successful.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 23rd, 2012 at 8:31:30 PM
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Quote: 24BingoThis kind of seems to be missing the point of why those games fail, I think. It seems to me that in the pits where you'll be launching a new game, roulette and certainly craps are going to be more popular than baccarat, won't they? Think it might have more to do with the more obvious thing those three games have in common - namely, that cards make it easier to repurpose equipment, so less overhead. Nothing to do with popularity.
There are lots of reasons not to use unconventional equipment.
1. Surveillance is not familiar with it, so wouldn't know how it might be exploited by cheaters.
2. The cost. There is a big economy of scale with conventional cards and dice.
3. Players prefer to play with icons they are familiar with.
I have lost count of the number of times game inventors game up with a completely new deck of cards. Every time I try to stop them from wasting their money, but it never works. As I've said before, the worse the game, the more millions the inventor will expect to make from it.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 23rd, 2012 at 9:06:27 PM
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Quote: WizardThere are lots of reasons not to use unconventional equipment.
No no no, you're using common sense again.
Dan has convinced me uncommon sense is
what makes a good games desinger. Uncommon
sense dictates using tons of weird equipment
that will confuse players and surveillance.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 24th, 2012 at 12:01:23 AM
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Bob and Dan, are you two really going to screw up this thread by getting into a braying contest? You've both made good points, nobody has to have the last word.
the next time Dame Fortune toys with your heart, your soul and your wallet, raise your glass and praise her thus: Thanks for nothing, you cold-hearted, evil, damnable, nefarious, low-life, malicious monster from Hell! She is, after all, stone deaf. ... Arnold Snyder
August 24th, 2012 at 12:11:54 AM
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Quote: odiousgambitYou've both made good points, nobody has to have the last word.
I always give Dan the last word. Go ahead, Dan.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 24th, 2012 at 4:25:23 AM
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Quote: EvenBobBut we all saw Paigow, it was already here. You used
common sense and didn't totally reinvent it, you just
tweaked it.
Well, let me say this:
1. if my version was just "common sense," - then a REAL LOT of people missed this prior to me, - including all the other pros in the industry. As far as "just a tweak" goes, - it was one hell of a d]ck pull. Same could be said for EZ Baccarat, as that it just a three-card banker 7 pushing when it occurs. Apparently, the "obvious answer" only becomes obvious after its discovery.
2. I am releasing a brand new game at G2E with October, and have a few more on the drawing board, some of which is getting interest.
3. You know, Bob, any time you want to apply, use, and show us the genius of your own common sense on some new game designs, then this here forum is THE place to present it; now do bounce it by us.
Quote: EvenBobWhy don't you help out Dave with Poker for Roulette?
Tell him what to make it successful.
1. I did give him a lot of help and a lot of contacts.
2. Dave's actually a big boy himself, and he knows what he's doing.
3. A lot of people told him what to do to make his idea successful, aside from me. Basically, he has a great idea that is very expensive to implement, technology-wise.
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 24th, 2012 at 5:29:47 AM
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Quote: EvenBobWhy don't you help out Dave with Poker for Roulette?
Tell him what to make it successful.
Dan has given me a lot of help.
I won't go into details, but the help started over 3 years ago.
And he continues to give me help, even though we have opposing viewpoints on some threads.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 24th, 2012 at 6:26:07 AM
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Quote: Paigowdan
Even for Mike's guidelines on new games, you would be amazed at how hard it is to implement and practice such "common sense" advice, and how far from this common sense list that a designer will bring his game into non-sense territory.
From what I have seen in my life, the price of common sense keeps going up and never falls, if it were otherwise more people would have some.
I do have mixed feelings on poker-based games. They seem to work, but how many does the market really need? And are they just canabilizing their own, near-fixed market?
As an example, when I deal the party nights I am amazed how many people don't know the rank of hands in poker. If I am dealing Let-It-Die (Let it Ride) and they ask how to play I tell them the basics. Then they ask "well, what is a good hand?" After 20 minutes of frustration they migrate to BJ. Such players might enjoy Casino War as just about everyone played War as a kid, to explain the rules takes less than 30 seconds, and lets face it--Casino War is about the most mindless table-game there is. But it lets players "graduate" from slots to tables with minimal intimidation. CW seems fairly immune to counting.
There have to be other adaptable games for beginners.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
August 24th, 2012 at 7:15:36 AM
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Quote: WizardUsing a joker is ill-advised, except for pai gow poker variants.
Say it ain't so! I really like Jokers and would be interested in trying other poker variants that make use of them.
Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.
August 24th, 2012 at 7:50:08 AM
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Quote: TheBigPaybakSay it ain't so! I really like Jokers and would be interested in trying other poker variants that make use of them.
Do so at your own risk.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 24th, 2012 at 10:31:49 AM
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Quote: AZDuffmanAs an example, when I deal the party nights I am amazed how many people don't know the rank of hands in poker. If I am dealing Let-It-Die (Let it Ride) and they ask how to play I tell them the basics. Then they ask "well, what is a good hand?" After 20 minutes of frustration they migrate to BJ. Such players might enjoy Casino War as just about everyone played War as a kid, to explain the rules takes less than 30 seconds, and lets face it--Casino War is about the most mindless table-game there is. But it lets players "graduate" from slots to tables with minimal intimidation.
The other wrinkle that is in the mix is do casino's want players to "graduate" from slots to the table game pit?
This was one of the markets I was targeting with Easy Over Under (the game had other issues, so set that aside for now). Assume you do come up with a game that is as easy to understand as CW and players can easily graduate to playing it vs. the slots.....I am not sure that casino's want them to "graduate". Slots are the most profitable area by square footage for the casino......why would they want players migrating from a higher margin portion of their business to a lower margin portion of the business?
The other piece to the conundrum of new game design.......make a game simple so players will try it, but with enough volatility or strategy to keep them engaged and coming back to play again.
Easier way to do that is variation of existing game, but the BJ/Poker variant space is so saturated with options, you have to displace an existing game in that genre to be successful (i.e. table game managers are saying "After 3CP, Crazy 4, UTH, PGP....I don't really need a 5th & 6th way to play poker on my floor") and with Spanish 21, Super Fun 21, BJ Switch, now Free Bet BJ along with the mandatory regular BJ games on the floor, do I really need another way to play BJ.
Harder way is to come up with a totally new game concept, but as was mentioned, it has to be really simple as players are starting from zero when it comes to knowledge about a brand new game concept. As a result, the strategy or game can't be too complex because players already have enough to learn....but you need the game to be engaging enough to get them to come back again and again to "try their luck".
It is a tough nut to crack for sure...
August 24th, 2012 at 10:53:58 AM
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Don't be so amazed.Quote: AZDuffmanAs an example, when I deal the party nights I am amazed how many people don't know the rank of hands in poker.
I got hooked on the poker bug in the Momeymaker era. I was in my early 40's, had played little, and still couldn't remember if a flush beat a straight. Of course, once I stated playing, it became second nature very quickly.
Also remember who is attracted to playing at a charity casino night: people who want to give to the charity, and casual gamblers. I.E. Players who want to try some of the other stuff besides slots.
More mindless is the original carnival game, Big Six, and it's big sister, Roulette.Quote: AZDuffman...and lets face it--Casino War is about the most mindless table-game there is.
I invented a few casino games. Info:
http://www.DaveMillerGaming.com/
Superstitions are silly, childish, irrational rituals, born out of fear of the unknown. But how much does it cost to knock on wood? 😁
August 24th, 2012 at 11:18:35 AM
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I like the list. Thank you for it.
A couple of quibbles. First, on #2, I would argue that craps and roulette are as popular as baccarat, if not more so. What the rule should probably say instead is "Thou shalt covet games that are popular AND ALREADY HAVE SEVERAL SUCCESSFUL DERIVATIVES".
And second, on #3... this is personal, so you guys can skip it. There are several table game bets on the traditional games that are much lower than 5% for the house, so with very limited exceptions, I won't bother with a game that gives up anything more than 1.5%. But, of course, getting a new game that's that advantageous on the casino floor is about as likely as having the manager hand me money when I walk in the door.
The one new game I did play was Blackjack Switch. But all the casinos bastardized the switched blackjack rule, so I pass it on by now. Too many other games just as good that I know the strategy for.
A couple of quibbles. First, on #2, I would argue that craps and roulette are as popular as baccarat, if not more so. What the rule should probably say instead is "Thou shalt covet games that are popular AND ALREADY HAVE SEVERAL SUCCESSFUL DERIVATIVES".
And second, on #3... this is personal, so you guys can skip it. There are several table game bets on the traditional games that are much lower than 5% for the house, so with very limited exceptions, I won't bother with a game that gives up anything more than 1.5%. But, of course, getting a new game that's that advantageous on the casino floor is about as likely as having the manager hand me money when I walk in the door.
The one new game I did play was Blackjack Switch. But all the casinos bastardized the switched blackjack rule, so I pass it on by now. Too many other games just as good that I know the strategy for.
August 24th, 2012 at 12:10:45 PM
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Quote: DJTeddyBearDon't be so amazed.
I got hooked on the poker bug in the Momeymaker era. I was in my early 40's, had played little, and still couldn't remember if a flush beat a straight. Of course, once I stated playing, it became second nature very quickly.
Also remember who is attracted to playing at a charity casino night: people who want to give to the charity, and casual gamblers. I.E. Players who want to try some of the other stuff besides slots.
More mindless is the original carnival game, Big Six, and it's big sister, Roulette.
I agree on who plays. But it amazes me people get to adulthood and never played or even learned he hands. I'm not talking about forgetting a straight flush beats a full house but a full house beats a flush. I'm talking people who don't know a pair is good. I'm talking about the lady who though a four card straight was a good hand after I said "nothing" when reading hands at final call. Put these people on Let-it-Die and they can only guess
To the question if casinos "want players to graduate" I say they want some to do so. Us less profit per square foot but without tables a casino is just a glorified arcade. The atmosphere of tables seems to keep people around longer. IMHO anyways.
All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others
August 24th, 2012 at 12:19:25 PM
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Quote: WizardDo so at your own risk.
It's not that I don't believe you, it's that frankly I'm surprised and wonder why that is- because as someone who enjoys the occasional carnival game, a joker element I would find appealing- like I do with Pai Gow Poker, for example.
Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.
August 24th, 2012 at 12:34:48 PM
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Quote: TheBigPaybakIt's not that I don't believe you, it's that frankly I'm surprised and wonder why that is- because as someone who enjoys the occasional carnival game, a joker element I would find appealing- like I do with Pai Gow Poker, for example.
Most card games are played without a joker. If you take a game that usually doesn't use them, like blackjack, baccarat, and poker, and introduce a joker it immediately throws off the odds and strategy. Players like these games because they already are familiar with the flow. Adding a joker is like adding a turd to a punch bowl.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 24th, 2012 at 12:53:33 PM
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As an example, Galaxy has tried Wild Cards/Jokers in its game Deuces Wild. I think it used to be called Wild Hold'em Fold'em. They have had some installs that I have seen up in WA, but like Wiz says, the game is all over the place from an odds perspective because of the wild cards. It really isn't even poker anymore, but just can you get dealt a Wild Deuce.
August 24th, 2012 at 1:02:38 PM
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Quote: WizardMost card games are played without a joker. If you take a game that usually doesn't use them, like blackjack, baccarat, and poker, and introduce a joker it immediately throws off the odds and strategy. Players like these games because they already are familiar with the flow. Adding a joker is like adding a turd to a punch bowl.
Certainly for games like Baccarat and Blackjack, I would agree. For Carnival games, such as Let-It-Ride, 4-Card Poker, Caribbean Stud, I wouldn't think it would hurt the flow of the game, or affect most recreational players strategy. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm just saying from a recreational player's perspective(at least mine) I would enjoy trying out new table games that incorporated them- although your point is that once I tried them, I probably wouldn't like them, which could certainly be the case.
Lack of prior planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on my part.
August 24th, 2012 at 2:10:41 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanWell, let me say this:
1. if my version was just "common sense," - then a REAL LOT of people missed this prior to me,
Thats what happens. How many times have you seen
the simplest stupidest invention that a guy is making
million on and said, why didn't I think of that. Thats
what Edison did, he bought other peoples patents, like
for the light bulb, (thats right, Edison did not invent
the light bulb) and improved them with things that were
obvious to him.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 24th, 2012 at 2:16:44 PM
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Quote: EvenBobThats what happens. How many times have you seen
the simplest stupidest invention that a guy is making
million on and said, why didn't I think of that. Thats
what Edison did, he bought other peoples patents, like
for the light bulb, (thats right, Edison did not invent
the light bulb) and improved them with things that were
obvious to him.
Which is to say, things that are non-obvious - to everyone else in the world....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 24th, 2012 at 2:20:38 PM
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Quote: PaigowdanWhich is to say, things that are non-obvious - to everyone else in the world....
Most people don't use common sense, most don't think
for themselves at all. We do things the way we've always
done them and think about things in the way we've always
thought. Anything else is too much work.
"It's not called gambling if the math is on your side."
August 24th, 2012 at 2:30:13 PM
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Actually I think the main issue might be that most smaller casinos have regular packs of cards (i.e. 52 no jokers) and so can freely switch between/open new games and only need to order normal packs.Quote: WizardMost card games are played without a joker.
Of course I suspect large casinos won't care a jot unless you introduce a new special card or, like one Californian game, eight Aces per pack.
Having said that "Spanish 21" is one of the popular game that breaks those rules.
August 24th, 2012 at 4:17:29 PM
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Quote: charliepatrickActually I think the main issue might be that most smaller casinos have regular packs of cards (i.e. 52 no jokers) and so can freely switch between/open new games and only need to order normal packs.
I'm quite sure the casinos buy the standard 54-card decks, with one joker and one calendar. It seems to me when you buy a used deck of cards in a casino gift shop they always include these.
Quote:Having said that "Spanish 21" is one of the popular game that breaks those rules.
First, I think that most Spanish 21 players don't even know the tens are removed. Those that do just ignore that fact. However, perhaps my commandment should be amended to say to not add cards, but removing some of them is not out of the question.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 24th, 2012 at 4:28:39 PM
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Quote: WizardI think I will talk about this on my radio show today. However, you are all the first to see this. As always, I welcome comments, corrections, and suggestions.
Wiz, I just listened to yesterday's radio show via WoO and you discussed "10 Commandments of Gambiling".
I thought you were thinking about discussing the OP topic, "10 Commandments of New Table Games"? Maybe that will be a topic for a different show with PaiGowDan as a guest. Similar to the Interview you did with Dan and posted on YouTube.
Enjoyed the show as usual, keep up the good work!
August 24th, 2012 at 4:47:55 PM
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Quote: ParadigmWiz, I just listened to yesterday's radio show via WoO and you discussed "10 Commandments of Gambiling".
I decided hours before the show to go with my gambling ten commandments instead. The topic of inventing new casino games has been given a big emphasis since I became co-host, so I thought I would go with something more mainstream.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 24th, 2012 at 5:20:40 PM
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Quote: Paradigm...I thought you were thinking about discussing the OP topic, "10 Commandments of New Table Games"? Maybe that will be a topic for a different show with PaiGowDan as a guest....
Hmmm...may be a little bit of a hot seat... with Mike....
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 24th, 2012 at 6:05:44 PM
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Quote: WizardI decided hours before the show to go with my gambling ten commandments instead. The topic of inventing new casino games has been given a big emphasis since I became co-host, so I thought I would go with something more mainstream.
Makes sense....I liked the Muchkin interview which was the majority of the Show.....again, good job!
August 24th, 2012 at 7:32:29 PM
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Quote: WizardI'm quite sure the casinos buy the standard 54-card decks, with one joker and one calendar. It seems to me when you buy a used deck of cards in a casino gift shop they always include these.
First, I think that most Spanish 21 players don't even know the tens are removed. Those that do just ignore that fact. However, perhaps my commandment should be amended to say to not add cards, but removing some of them is not out of the question.
Wizard,
If the point was made that adding a Joker makes things "go crazy" with respect to normal strategy and odds, then the same is true by removing them.....or the commandment may read something how it affects PLAYERS attitudes instead of strategy and odds.
August 25th, 2012 at 6:35:11 AM
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Quote: doubleluckIf the point was made that adding a Joker makes things "go crazy" with respect to normal strategy and odds, then the same is true by removing them.....or the commandment may read something how it affects PLAYERS attitudes instead of strategy and odds.
Cards can be removed if the players don't notice the omission, as is the case in Spanish 21. However, if you add a card the player is sure to notice as soon as he sees it the first time.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 25th, 2012 at 7:01:04 AM
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I decided to remove the 10th commandment about side bets, and roll that into the commandment about simplicity. Here is the new 10th commandment.
10. Thou Shalt Not Combine Existing Games
Do not combine two or more popular games together. It has been tried many times, and never gone far. This is especially true of combining blackjack to poker. If you think you're the first to think of that, trust me, you're in the company a lot of a lot of game inventors who struck out in three swings. Combining two different popular games in a casino has about the same chance of success as Wendy's would have of serving chili and a milkshake in the same cup.
Before anyone thinks I'm ragging on DJ, remember that these commandments apply to new games, not side bets.
10. Thou Shalt Not Combine Existing Games
Do not combine two or more popular games together. It has been tried many times, and never gone far. This is especially true of combining blackjack to poker. If you think you're the first to think of that, trust me, you're in the company a lot of a lot of game inventors who struck out in three swings. Combining two different popular games in a casino has about the same chance of success as Wendy's would have of serving chili and a milkshake in the same cup.
Before anyone thinks I'm ragging on DJ, remember that these commandments apply to new games, not side bets.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 25th, 2012 at 10:24:35 AM
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A rare example of the semi-success of a mix game is Pai Gow mania. It made it into real casinos, and got some play. Play a Three Card Poker first, then get four more cards and play full Pai Gow poker. I kind of liked it.
An other game (which did not make it into casinos are far as I know) is Pojack, a name that says it all, Poker and BlackJack. Play BJ first, then continue your cards into a poker hand. It recieved here at this forum a 87% NoWay / "WTF??" rating. The guy who invented this is kind of wide-eyed optimistic about this game on LinkedIn. It really looked like one mess of a "burger and shake smoothie."
An other game (which did not make it into casinos are far as I know) is Pojack, a name that says it all, Poker and BlackJack. Play BJ first, then continue your cards into a poker hand. It recieved here at this forum a 87% NoWay / "WTF??" rating. The guy who invented this is kind of wide-eyed optimistic about this game on LinkedIn. It really looked like one mess of a "burger and shake smoothie."
Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes - Henry David Thoreau. Like Dealers' uniforms - Dan.
August 25th, 2012 at 11:00:40 AM
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Quote: PaigowdanA rare example of the semi-success of a mix game is Pai Gow mania. It made it into real casinos, and got some play. Play a Three Card Poker first, then get four more cards and play full Pai Gow poker. I kind of liked it.
Although getting a few placements is further than the vast majority of game inventors will ever get, I still don't consider that a success. Show me a game that has made more for the inventor than the expense of math, intellectual property protection, licenses, fixed expenses (like signs and cloth), and something reasonable for time and I'll consider giving it "success" status. Pai Gow Mania has been at the Fitzgerald's for years, but as far as I know, that is the only placement. Somehow I've heard of Pojack, probably seen it at a gaming show, but I don't think I've seen placement number one yet.
"For with much wisdom comes much sorrow." -- Ecclesiastes 1:18 (NIV)
August 25th, 2012 at 11:33:29 AM
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Success is obviously subjective to each individual, but since table game development is a business, using financial metrics to judge success seems appropriate.
To be a financial success, the game needs to be net profitable over its lifetime. As Wiz mentioned above, you have to make more than all the costs associated with developing the game.
For most completely new table games (not side bets), I estimate that is going to take 12-15 installs generating monthly lease revenue for 12 mos. That is to say you are going to need 144 -180 monthly lease payments from casinos to cover the hard costs of game development.
The cost of time element is a bit less clear. I think most independent developers have a "day job" and the pursuit of a financially successful new table game is a part time endeavor. There is a personal satisfaction out of pursuing the financial goal that is not easily quantifiable.
I certainly got involved in the industry to make a profit (and have a long way to go to get there), but there are also non-financial benefits/rewards along the way. Meeting new people serious about something that you care about, learning a new industry from the player/dealer/casino management perspectives, understanding the math behind new games/the impact of volatility & hit rate on the player experience, etc.
I count these as real benefits of my journey, particularly the meeting of quality individuals on this Forum, at developer meetings/trade shows, & through hiring professionals in the math, legal and other fields.
None of those soft intangibles help you recover the real costs of game development, but I count many as partial payment for the time invested in the journey.
To be a financial success, the game needs to be net profitable over its lifetime. As Wiz mentioned above, you have to make more than all the costs associated with developing the game.
For most completely new table games (not side bets), I estimate that is going to take 12-15 installs generating monthly lease revenue for 12 mos. That is to say you are going to need 144 -180 monthly lease payments from casinos to cover the hard costs of game development.
The cost of time element is a bit less clear. I think most independent developers have a "day job" and the pursuit of a financially successful new table game is a part time endeavor. There is a personal satisfaction out of pursuing the financial goal that is not easily quantifiable.
I certainly got involved in the industry to make a profit (and have a long way to go to get there), but there are also non-financial benefits/rewards along the way. Meeting new people serious about something that you care about, learning a new industry from the player/dealer/casino management perspectives, understanding the math behind new games/the impact of volatility & hit rate on the player experience, etc.
I count these as real benefits of my journey, particularly the meeting of quality individuals on this Forum, at developer meetings/trade shows, & through hiring professionals in the math, legal and other fields.
None of those soft intangibles help you recover the real costs of game development, but I count many as partial payment for the time invested in the journey.
