Roulette Keno

Roulette Keno

Concept

Roulette Keno will feature the ability to make a bet on 2-9 numbers during a game of Standard Roulette in which the participant attempts to choose the numbers that will show up in a fashion like Keno. The participant will fill out a Roulette Keno card and black out the numbers he/she wants to select with a black marker. The player will either be provided a carbon-copy of the Roulette Keno card or the player may receive a non-playable Roulette Keno card to track his/her numbers.

The standard game of Roulette will be played during the pendency of the Roulette Keno game, however, a player does not have to be playing one to be playing the other.

Signage/Layout

The standard Roulette layout will be appropriate for this game, so this game will only require signage, Roulette Keno Cards with a carbon-copy back, or non-playable cards for the players.

The Roulette board that is presently used for spin tracking will be reset prior to each game of Roulette Keno and will be used for that purpose.

Procedure

1.) If there is not a Roulette Keno game in play, the Croupier will point around the table asking, "Keno," at the conclusion of every spin to determine whether or not any of the players wish to play Roulette Keno. In the event that a player does wish to play Roueltte Keno, the regular game of Roulette may commence with another spin during which time the player(s) wanting to play Roulette Keno shall make their picks. The player(s) will announce that they have concluded filling out their card between spins, and the game will commence with the next spin.

2.) There may only be one game of Roulette Keno taking place at a time.

3.) The dealer will accept the cards from the players which will have the casino name, game, Table Number and legally required information pre-printed on them.

-The dealer will take the chips at this time and mark the bet on the card.

-The player will have a box in which to put his/her first name.

-The dealer will put the player's seat number, with the seat leftmost the dealer being, "Seat 1," on the card. The dealer will also put the date, system time, and game number on the card. The game numbers will reset at 12:00a.m., with the first game taking place after that time being, "Game 1."

-The dealer will quickly validate that the player has marked off more than one, but less than ten, numbers on the Roulette Keno card. If the player has failed to mark off more than one number, then the dealer will return the card to the player for completion IF nobody else is playing Roiulette Keno at the time. If there is another player, the dealer will stamp the card, "Void." The dealer will always stamp the card, "Void," if it contains more than nine numbers marked out.

4.) The game commences along with the regular game of Roulette. The Roulette Keno game will end when nine different numbers have resulted on the Roulette board. Repeated numbers have no bearing on the Roulette Keno game and are considered a, "Non-Ball," for the purposes of the Keno game only.

5.) The dealer will announce the results at the end of the game and place losing cards into a dropbox. The dealer will pay out the winners and place those cards into a separate dropbox.

6.) The player will bet between Table Minimum and a Maximum decided by the casino.

Payouts

I have decided that, for the time being, we want the return to be about 85% on this game. The reasons for such a high HE are basically due to the training of dealer procedure, the cost of printing the Roulette Keno Cards, the increased exposure of the casino to variance (compared to the standard game) and the fact that it will slightly slow down the standard Roulette game. Casinos may increase or decrease the payouts at their individual discretion, but it would require new cards.

I'm going to do specific payouts and probabilities after I have had the opportunity to see what people think of the game, in general, in this thread. If nobody likes the idea, then I probably won't go to the trouble.

I don't know... this sounds like exactly the kind of thing roulette players would loathe, but I don't see it working without the classic roulette option.

As I recently found out when I presented Poker For Roulette to the ShuffleMaster Focus Group, even FIVE spins is too long to wait for resolution.

Plus, your concept creates a LOT of extra work and validation by the dealer.

The only way I could see your concept working is if there was a small self-service kiosk near the roulette table to handle the betting and payouts. And even then, I doubt it would become popular. After all, Keno itself isn't that popular. However it is a high house edge and relatively cheap to operate which is why it still exists.

I think it's the kind of idea that wuold work great in electronic games.

IN ORDER

24Bingo

I may not have been explicit enough in stating that the standard game of Roulette would still be played during the pendency of the Roulette Keno game, but it would. We would not want to eliminate the HE on Roulette for nine spins, minimum, over something that would still have the same minimum bet. I understand that even at the higher HE, that would cost the casino a ton of money.

This would also probably not be utilized by a casino having only one Roulette Table. I don't think you would want to irritate the people that are just there for the Roulette action. However, I do think (and this is a complete guess) that there would be enough Roulette-Only players that would be interested in watching the RK players as well as RK players, in and of themselves, to give the casino positive revenue. Further, if no RK is being played, the game of Roulette is unchanged.

DJTeddyBear

I will say that I love your Roulette Poker game. I don't think that the length of the game would be as much of a concern for RK because you're dealing with players who are accustomed to live draw-and-call Keno.

I would also say that I am looking to draw Keno players to the Roulette Table, not to draw Roulette players to play RK, but if they do, all the better. I think that, for the casino, the higher ER on RK compared to standard Keno will hopefully be compensated for (and then some) by the fact that the RK players would also be playing standard Roulette at that HE and game speed. If not, it is of little concern, because the Standard Roulette game would be taking place anyway, with or without them at the table.

I do not believe that it would result in that much time lost for the dealer because the RK players would be expected to fill their cards out during the pendency of regular Roulette spins. I also think that if you devote certain dealers to RK that they will become familiar enough with the card filling out procedure as to be fairly quick at it. The goal would probably be up to five cards in twenty seconds or less absent player error. The payouts may be time-consuming, but it means that everyone at or gathered around the table is seeing people winning, always good for a game with a high long-run HE!!!

I do not like the self-service kiosk idea, unless there is some link to the Roulette call board, because it is otherwise impossible to play more than one RK game at once. There would be no way to reasonably keep track of it. Either that or you would need a separate dealer to enter spin information to the kiosk, but then you increase your largest variable expense, which is dealers/table. Since there is only one croupier, you double that expense, regardless of whether or not anyone is playing RK. That's just not an acceptable variable.

I do think Keno has enough of a cult following to attract Keno players to the Roulette Table for this game. You also have to admit that the cost to run a trial of this idea would be CHEAP, especially for the larger casinos who are willing to try most anything to see if it works. The most important aspect of this game is that it work into standard Roulette as seamlessly as possible.

Nareed

I absolutely LOVE that idea!!! You could work it right into GameKing, or similar machines. You would have a higher initial expense because of programming/design, but the distribution amongst machines would be pretty cheap because all it requires is a download. You could also still make it so that Standard Roulette could be played during the pendency, or there could be a speed option that would turn off standard Roulette and make the spins take place automatically (without the machine being told to spin) at a faster rate.

Do you have any idea what the standard minimum is for a game of electronic Roulette? I've never seen one. I don't know if you would play this at $0.25/minimum machines (Keno usually starts at $0.05, but VP seems to want $0.25) or $1.00, or what. I guess you could always change the ER for the cheaper machines, except the Standard Roulette ER is a constant. Would you make it so that RK would exist only in and of itself without a standard Roulette option, or so that you could only play standard Roulette during a game of RK, or simply increase the minimum bet for standard Roulette over that of the RK portion of the game?

Quote: Mission146

I do not like the self-service kiosk idea, unless there is some link to the Roulette call board,...

FYI: Every high-tech device on a casino floor is on the casino's network. And that includes the Roulette scanner / display. Among other things, it allows management in an office somewhere, or even off premises, to see charts like this one. to early-detect possible wheel bias.

Admin note: removed image www.djteddybear.com/images/wheel_analysis.JPG

It would be a simple matter to link a Roulette Keno kiosk with ALL of the Roulette tables on the casino floor and allow the player to place the bet on any of them. Then all the dealer needs to do is verify / fix the occasional scanner error. For the record, I envision the same type of thing for long-term-down-the-road for Poker For Roulette.

I would have a separate croupier/dealer/whatever for the keno game. You hand in your ticket to that person when the game starts. That way, you don't tie up the regular game every 9-10 spins with having to deal with the keno bets.

I'm not going into a lot of detail of why this won't work, like
I did with Poker for Roulette. Suffice it to say, roulette is
already a very slow game and this would bring it to a crawl.
There are already dozens of places to bet on the roulette
layout, players don't want more options. And the dealers, who are
already swamped with making the right payouts, certainly
don't want more. Roulette is a complicated game, why are
people insisting on making it even more complicated.

Quote: EvenBob

I'm not going into a lot of etail of why this won't work, like
I did with Poker for Roulette. Suffice it to say, roulette is
already a very slow game and this would bring it to a crawl.
There are already dozens of places to bet on the roulette
layout, players don't want more options. And the dealers, who are
already swamped with making the right payouts, certainly
don't want more. Roulette is a complicated game, why are
people insisting on making it even more complicated.

Roulette is NOT complicated in any way. It involves no thinking and no strategy. Red or Black, Odd or Even, a specific number, or groups of numbers. To say it's complicated is like saying a "multi-line" slot machine is complicated. What's so hard about it? It's the simplest table game ever created.

Evenbob is right. Roulette is already too slow. If you want to improve the game and make it more enjoyable for players, then make larger LED display boards that actually work, and hire dealers that speak English. Roulette players love looking at the past numbers.

Put real roulette wheels with frets back into play, like the Aria has, instead of the wheels that look like cheap hub caps (Starburst) like the Venetian has on the floor. The players will tell you that they don't like the "cheap looking hubcap style of wheels" because they do NOT believe that they are "fair".

Quote: doubleluck

Roulette is NOT complicated in any way. .

Its complicated to the people who don't understand it, and thats
most people. Dealers hate it because of the different payouts
they have to figure in their heads and its very easy to make
a mistake.

Quote: Keyser

Evenbob is right. Roulette is already too slow. .

When I play, I spend 95% of my time waiting for the next spin.
When its busy, I'm lucky to get 16 an hour. Believe me, I time
them. 25 an hour is great, 30 an hour makes me so happy I'm
crying like a baby..

The best improvement that could be made to roulette is to hire dealers that speak ENGLISH! Most new players find the betting layout to be very complicated. Players are very confused by what the "inside" and "outside" bets are, and the dealer's usually don't speak English well enough to explain it to the new players. Casinos should simply do away with the "inside" and "outside" distinction.

Quote: Keyser

The best improvement that could be made to roulette is to hire dealers that speak ENGLISH! Players are very confused by what the "inside" and "outside" bets are, and the dealer's usually don't speak English well enough to explain it to the new players. Casinos should simply do away with the "inside" and "outside" distinction.

I agree. Players don't understand why they have to bet
the whole min bet on red or odd or the dozens, yet they
can spread the min bet around on the inside. They
incorrectly think the inside is therefore the better bet,
when thats not true at all.

On Roulette Evolution, or Rapid Roulette, or the virtual
roulette games, you can spread the min around on the
outside bets. Why won't they let you do that on a regular
roulette table.

Quote: DJTeddyBear

FYI: Every high-tech device on a casino floor is on the casino's network. And that includes the Roulette scanner / display. Among other things, it allows management in an office somewhere, or even off premises, to see charts like this one. to early-detect possible wheel bias.


It would be a simple matter to link a Roulette Keno kiosk with ALL of the Roulette tables on the casino floor and allow the player to place the bet on any of them. Then all the dealer needs to do is verify / fix the occasional scanner error. For the record, I envision the same type of thing for long-term-down-the-road for Poker For Roulette.

That is completely awesome!!!

In that event, then, we could assign every Roulette Table a number and then have the player go to the kiosk to fill out his Roulette Keno card where play may begin as soon as the card is filled out, submitted, and paid for.

I think it would be awesome if the game were to take off and then you could get large screen TV's to suspend above the Table advertising the Roulette Keno game and to have uploaded onto them active player cards (the player could choose to invoke the option not to have their card known at the kiosk) where everyone can watch whether or not a player will win on the big screen. Tres' cool.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

I would have a separate croupier/dealer/whatever for the keno game. You hand in your ticket to that person when the game starts. That way, you don't tie up the regular game every 9-10 spins with having to deal with the keno bets.

I think that would be a good recommendation, however, you are then adding a fixed hourly cost to the game. I really think that if the dealer handles regular Roulette spins (assuming no kiosk) during the pendency of the players filling out their cards you'd be looking at 20 seconds on the front end and less than a minute on the back end. The payouts would be printed on all of the cards for each number of selections, or on back, so there wouldn't be anything the dealer need memorize.

Quote: DJTeddybear

FYI: Every high-tech device on a casino floor is on the casino's network. And that includes the Roulette scanner / display. Among other things, it allows management in an office somewhere, or even off premises, to see charts like this one. to early-detect possible wheel bias.

No, actually it's not. In the US, it's actually unusual for the casinos to have access to it. Only a minority of the casinos take advantage of the TCS/Huxley style of data downloads. Caesar's only recently installed a crude version of it last year. They're still having a great deal of trouble getting it to run correctly. Prior to that, the only access that they had was the download system from the shuffle master rapid roulette terminals.

Poker Roulette Keno Roulette Can Bingo Roulette be next ?

Quote: EvenBob

I agree. Players don't understand why they have to bet
the whole min bet on red or odd or the dozens, yet they
can spread the min bet around on the inside. They
incorrectly think the inside is therefore the better bet,
when thats not true at all.

On Roulette Evolution, or Rapid Roulette, or the virtual
roulette games, you can spread the min around on the
outside bets. Why won't they let you do that on a regular
roulette table.

I can tell you exactly why, and it is because of revenue per hour. If you look at a Roulette player who bets red at $15 for 38 spins, he is going to lose twenty and win eighteen for a total loss of $30.

If the same player slaps $5 on Red, Even, and 19-36 for a total of $15, here is what will happen:

0, 00:

Clear the Board 2/38 = -$30

Red, Even, 19-36:

All Wins 4/38 = +$60

Red, Even, 1-18:

Win two, lose one. 4/38 = +$20

Red, Odd, 19-36:

Win two, lose one. 5/38 = +$25

Black, Even, 19-36:

Win two, lose one. 5/38 = +$25

Black, Odd, 19-36

Lose Two, Win One: 4/38 = -$20

Black, Even, 1-18:

Lose Two, Win One: 5/38 = -$25

Red, Odd, 1-18:

Lose Two, Win One: 5/38 = -$25

Black, Odd, 1-18:

Lose All. 4/38 = -$60

Totals: 38/38 $-30

Summary

Two reasons:

1.) You see that the EV to the player is the same (to wit: -$30) regardless of the way the player bets, however, it changes the revenue/hour on the table. The dealer has to take his time to make sure that he doesn't screw up any pays, he has to check all the action, he has to keep a closer eye on the table after calling, "No more bets," (as may the eye in the sky) because you have more total bets on the layout which all reflect the same sum. The payouts slow the game down.

With the Red/Black Proposition, it's simple, player bets Red, result is Black/Green, take chips. It's easy. You don't have to look for the player's flamingo pink chips (think a full table) on three different bets to ensure he is not capping.

In short, it takes work and time to let a player make three bets instead of one for the same money. The croupier would also rather focus his attention on the inside, I would assume, because that doesn't even have to be a cap, it could be a nudge. You take a four-corners bet that wins and change it to a straight bet on a number, much more money. If you're trying to pull something like that, you get away with it once if you are DARN lucky. However, that's where an inattentive dealer can most cost the casino money, so that's where he has to focus the bulk of his attention if anyone is playing the inside.

2.) If you have a player that wants to play Red + Even he is going to do so by slapping down $20 (total) on a $10 minimum table. He's putting $10 per spot. If you only make him bet $10 total, maybe he only plays $5/spot. If you have a superstitious player, though, who either must play them together, or because he somehow thinks it improves his odds, he's going to bet the $20 instead.

I guess a player will technically make the same amount last longer this way, at least in terms of EV, simply because the payouts (and hence the game) will take a little longer.

I will hopefully get more opinions on this game.

Stop me if you've heard these, they may be offensive, so do not look under the Spoiler if you are easily offended.

There were two Craps players who often played together, one was a Right-Way Bettor and the other was a Wrong-Way Bettor.

WWB: Anything new going on?

RWB: Yeah, I'm dating a new girl from work.

WWB: Really?

RWB: Yeah, there were two interested in me, one was a six and the other was a ten. I chose the six.

WWB: Why would you choose a six if you could have had a ten?



My apologies if it is not original. I came up with it today, and it is original as far as I know.

I agree that the game can be slow...I just disagreed with the statement that roulette is "complicated".

I agree that the game can be slow.....I just disagree with the idea that roulette is somehow "complicated".

Is there any suspension involved with a terrible joke. Mission, that priest joke waa as bad as saying Michael jackson ran to Walmart recuse he heard boys pants were half off !!

The Wizard's Rules do not specify that it has to be a good joke!

Quote: Mission146

BONUS:

Normally I don't favor editing posts, except for typos or to add information, but in this case I think you'd do well to remove the second joke. Not only is it overly offensive and largely unfair, but there is a forum member who is Catholic priest and plays BJ. And I say this as a sworn enemy of religion in all forms.

Quote: Nareed

Quote: Mission146

BONUS:

Normally I don't favor editing posts, except for typos or to add information, but in this case I think you'd do well to remove the second joke. Not only is it overly offensive and largely unfair, but there is a forum member who is Catholic priest and plays BJ. And I say this as a sworn enemy of religion in all forms.

Thanks for the tip, Nareed, I honestly did not realize that.

The second joke will be removed in short order.