Free Bet Blackjack

Quote: Switch

... reduce the playing errors ...

I assume you mean reduce the number of player decisions that are against basic strategy.

While this sounds good on paper, doesn't player mistakes make up a big portion of the hold on traditional BJ?

If that explains why your hold is lower than expected, your game may have trouble getting additional installs.



At any rate, wish you much success with it.

Exactly DJ ... this is why the game needs some tweaking to bring the hold % in line.

Fortunately it's easier to work with a low hold % rather than a low 'drop'.

so is this the siren call for the AP's to descend like locusts and pick it clean before the edge goes up?
when is the field trial over?

Quote: WongBo

so is this the siren call for the AP's to descend like locusts and pick it clean before the edge goes up?
when is the field trial over?

The field trial has about a week to go however the game is being watched closely ... if the hold % is artificially low due to a high proportion of AP on a game then it results in an overall higher edge being created - 'Blackjack Switch' was tweaked from a 0.18% house edge to 0.58% after it was targeted at Harrahs, Las Vegas.

Surrender would be an obvious rule to take off the game if it needed to be further tweaked.

i am pretty certain that CZR would never allow a game with an edge below .2% in this day and age,
regardless of AP interest, which i am sure would have been considerable.

Switch is right....easier to solve hold issues than drop issues. If folks aren't playing, you are dead. If the hold isn't working, you see if you can tweak the rules to get it to where it needs to be.

If you kept the no split on fours and took away surrender and no doubling on anything except three cards, I get a 1.00% edge based on WoO's page on the game. While I know that more than doubles the original house edge, but the game will need to hold at least as much as regular BJ plus some multiple of the lease rate in order for the economics of the install to make sense.

I think the free doubles & free splits will get players to the table....will players that are attracted by that option really notice a 0.42% vs. a 1.00% edge. I know the BJ purists are rolling their eyes at me......but let's not forget that these are the same players that are sitting down at 6:5 BJ.

as someone who has played BJ for over 25 years,
i am proud to say i have NEVER once played a variant,
nor placed a side bet...
except for insurance at +3

but best of luck with your game,
i hope it succeeds.

You and Paigowdan both could stand to have proper websites for your games... but developing yours for this specific game, complete with a demo game [especially a trainer type] would be awfully nice. Of course I realize "easier said than done".

What attracts AP players?

Quote: WongBo

as someone who has played BJ for over 25 years,
i am proud to say i have NEVER once played a variant,
nor placed a side bet...
except for insurance at +3

but best of luck with your game,
i hope it succeeds.

Not even Lucky Ladies with a high true count?

Quote: odiousgambit

You and Paigowdan both could stand to have proper websites for your games... but developing yours for this specific game, complete with a demo game [especially a trainer type] would be awfully nice. Of course I realize "easier said than done".

EZ Pai gow at DEQ systems. Distributor/licensee handles promotion/media control, etc...

I am certain you will see Free bet blackjack shortly at Shufflemaster's site, Shufflemaster NorthAmerica
Switch I believe mentions at his site, he'll give the link. Also mentioned at onlineblackjack.com/free-bet

Quote: odiousgambit

What attracts AP players?

Quick and Easy dirty money.... :) To quote a poster here in this thread: "so is this the siren call for the AP's to descend like locusts and pick it clean before the edge goes up..."

Quote: WongBo

this is not roger's game. ask geoff if he can come up with something better if you dont like this one.

Yes it is Roger's game to control, and through the duration of the license agreement that Geoff signed with Roger, and excluded are jurisdictions explicitly exempted. For that matter, EZ Pai Gow is DEQ's game to control through the duration of the license agreement, which will probably be resigned. All done and accepted amicably and in good faith and confidence by all parties involved, who are knowledgable of such contractual matters...

WongBo, - what new game designs have YOU designed and signed up with Distributors, or do you distribute yourself? Hmm, perhaps you can tell us game desginers the conditions that such licensing agreements entail....

Quote: WongBo

i am pretty certain that CZR would never allow a game with an edge below .2% in this day and age,
regardless of AP interest, which i am sure would have been considerable.

1. How exactly would you know? Are you an executive, or a Director of Gaming Mathematics with a casino operator such as Las Vegas Sands, Harrahs, or Caesars Entertainment?
2. The pass line bet, as well as come bets with 3x odds or better at countless places already have this, routinely offered. Including CZR (Caesars Entertainment, LLC).
3. The most popular game Blackjack, as well as high stakes Baccarat, both with huge aggregate drops, have table holds routinely below 20%, down into the teens and single digits without much ado. Quite often such table holds are actually negative for a monthly period without tables being pulled or uninstalls occuring. A table that holds 5% (representing a 0.5% house edge) that drops $1M a month (as a number of Baccarat tables do) throws off $50,000 in profit from a 6-foot piece of real estate in a casino, and is comfortably kept. Not shabby. A table with a 25% hold that drops $10,000 a month holds $2,500 - not enough to cover its dealing, floor supervision, and promotional expenses, and is quickly gone. The difference is not in a 0.5% HE or 5% table hold versus a 2.5% HE and 25% table hold. It is the difference between a $50,000 pure profit versus a $2,500 profit for the same 7-foot table, dealer, and real estate foorprint.

It's not just about AP risk, or the nominal house edge percentage that one forum poster can find on some game from the Internet. It is a combination of the games actual profit over time, and the buzz and business draw a game brings to a casino, in the prism of the review of high-ranking casino executives. If we knew as much as them....

why do you get so defensive?
i thought given the tone that you were going to name a few games that have an edge below .2%.
passline with 3x odds (.47% edge/.34% don't)..
10x odds? so a minimum $55 or $110 bet (.184% edge/.124% don't, damn close!)
how about something in the $5 to $15 range?
sorry, i didnt say "in my uninformed opinion",
and maybe i should have also said
i doubt they (or most others) would offer a standard new game/side bet with an edge of less than .2%.
i did not go on a rant against their greed (this time), though i do think they are tighter than others,
i guess 19 billion in debt will do that to a company.
i was just saying i did not think the change in house edge is always the sole fault of alleged AP interest.
i will admit, that a .2% edge in a blackjack based game could be a real challenge to the hold.
and yes i think the AP would be swarming, in vegas at least.

Quote: WongBo

why do you get so defensive?

I really wasn't defensive, I was simply factual and to the point. I felt my tone was no less aggressive than your own tone, which was at times both dismissive and authoritive, I felt. I just reponded quickly, stating "no, I disagree, here are some details..."

Quote: WongBo

i thought given the tone that you were going to name a few games that have an edge below .2%.
passline with 10x odds? so a minimum $55 or $110 bet (.184% edge, damn close!)
how about something in the $5 to $15 range?

"Below .2%" is a very arbitrary range, and does not reflect on any players win-loss gambling record or session experience realistically. I get killed at craps playing pass-line/come bets with 10x odds at less than (<) 0.2%, and make book on Three Card Poker at a Carny house edge, and have fun with it. Plus my wife can play it with me. Now, Showing our extertise by saying "Game X has a house edge of 0.5873546294%, while game 'Y' has a house edge of 1.278452954%" doesn't show it or cut it, - and that's my point! Three Card Poker is a fun little ditty of a game that has me consistently buying in (most recently at Hooters, on Roger's/SMI's "Three Card Poker Full I-Deal table" - when I should have been playing MY OWN EZ Pai Gow at Hooters - which was right next to it, AND with a lower house edge. THAT has GOT to say something!)

Quote: WongBo

sorry, i didnt say "in my uninformed opinion",

Neither did I, or feel this about you, ever. I think You are very sharp, - but a bit too sassy at times, a mixture of aggression and defense in tone, IMO.

Quote: WongBo

and maybe i should have also said
i doubt they (or most others) would offer a standard new game/side bet with an edge of less than .2%.

I know about gaming and game distribution, and it ain't at ALL about a "0.2%" HE or a "0.199998" HE or a "0.200001" HE, like crossing a line in the sand or the Maginot Line. There are NO House edge cut-off limits that somehow make a game a hit or a dog, IF it is within reasonable limits like 0.5%HE to 4.5% house edge on flat bets, and 7% to 15% on payout table bonus bets, etc. Lucky Ladies is a HE at like 24%[!!] HE, and it gets play - because it is fun and people LIKE to play it. They win, they take home money (and they can) - they feel good playing it, and feel good leaving the casino with extra money. This is like someone who won $100 Million dollars in a $1 lottery ticket both took down a house edge of over 50% before taxes, and $60M after taxes (and will probably blow it within 8 years, too.) Are you say to to the man with $60,000,000 after taxes: "You know, you're just a f*cking IDIOT, playing a 50% House Edge for the evil Casino/Lottery Commission....you should become an AP counter!!" What would he answer, "Yeah, TELL me about it." Gamblers don't always grind flat bets, we add some pork and pepper to our rice, even against the "Health Advisories" of AP players, ahem ...

Quote: Wongbo

i did not go on a rant against their greed (this time),

Don't. That's the enemy casino's argument about AP players, so don't become the enemy. You'll lose footing and street cred...

Quote: WongBo

i was just saying i did not think the change in house edge is always the genuine fault of alleged AP interest.

And it wasn't, and I will admit this. Never even thought it, as I thought 0.18% was insanely low. EZ Pai Gow is lower than regular Pai Gow's 2.74%, but as 2.43%, it really is immaterial with the added action on it. Once you're below 2.7% on a slow flat bet, or 1.5% on a game no matter how fast, it feels and acts like an even-up game; the question then remains, "Does this game have JUICE to it, does it feel good to play...."

I think that Free Bet blackjack needed and got (my opinion):
1. a slightly higher house edge of 0.5% to 1.5%, for a future table hold on 18% to 29% on top of HEAVY action (and I'll bet on this with Switch) - which that monster game WILL get. Not my opinion. Everybody's opinion from Roger on down to the on-call BJ dealer who's friggin' seen it and wishes he were on the game.
2. Totally transparency of rules aligned with regular/standard Blackjack very closely, to avoid pushback, - which the new rule games now provide. One of the success of EZ pai Gow was that is WAS "apparently" the same game in "feel and learning" to the Joe Bloke player who walked up to it and tried it, - to find NO upsets from the old Pai Gow Or BJ game he fomerly loved. So he loves this new one - right off the bat. It is SO hard with new games to get them "into the game" from jump street. These changes are fine, as there will be less push back from normal players, and any push-back from an AP player tring to kill it and to quibble about essentially a millionth of a decimal place is just NO LOSS. If the new rules give the game a better alignment to what the walk-up players know and love, and a better more reasonable house edge closer to 1% - which is ACTUALLY REASONABLE on casino game - so much the finer.
Edit:
3. And this is important: if there was a fun, "balancing house edge" side bet on the game, the game's overall house edge and table hold may/would be more in norm and better balanced - like every BJ game that has such balancing side bets that get used in conjunction with its main base game. It increase both hold, action, and yes, variance at times, but if operators look at such side bets from an operational point of view of real gamblers and tourists, and not from the POV of AP player dictums prevelant here at this board, then you'd offer to the wider public both what will get more action and more table hold, as well as more yelps and high-fives, as winning an even money flat bet seldom produces that.

Quote: odiousgambit

You and Paigowdan both could stand to have proper websites for your games... but developing yours for this specific game, complete with a demo game [especially a trainer type] would be awfully nice. Of course I realize "easier said than done".

What attracts AP players?

I'm looking into having the game designed - I even have freebetblackjack.com ready to use.

A new game offers several attractions to an AP player. Firstly there may be an overlooked weakness in the game that yields a player advantage if handled correctly - this has happened to several games in the past.

Furthermore, the management are not fully aware of what the hold % should be on a new game. For example, if a game held well against average players but was vulnerable against an AP then the hold% may not appear too low - if a regular Blackjack game started holding 4 or 5% lower than usual then management would monitor the game more closely.

Additionally, with lower limits and a general misconception that carnival games have too high an edge to be beaten, the game tends to get less surveillance than the higher limit regular Blackjack games.

Just to re-emphasize, 'Blackjack Switch' was placed on trial at The 4 Queens with a 0.18% house edge (8 decks). It then got installed at Fitzgerald's and Casino Royale (6 decks HE 0.16%) and finally got placed into Harrah's (6 decks, 0.16% HE).

The hold % was fine as the 'switch' decisions created more playing errors - even a player who could 'switch' well would add around 0.3% to the base HE due to switching errors.

The rules were tweaked only after the game was targeted by an AP group at Harrah's. Even then, Casino Royale kept the 0.16% version for at least 2 years before finally following suit with every other casino.

Quote: Switch

Just to re-emphasize, 'Blackjack Switch' was placed on trial at The 4 Queens with a 0.18% house edge (8 decks). It then got installed at Fitzgerald's and Casino Royale (6 decks HE 0.16%) and finally got placed into Harrah's (6 decks, 0.16% HE).

The hold % was fine as the 'switch' decisions created more playing errors - even a player who could 'switch' well would add around 0.3% to the base HE due to switching errors.

The rules were tweaked only after the game was targeted by an AP group at Harrah's. Even then, Casino Royale kept the 0.16% version for at least 2 years before finally following suit with every other casino.

The thing about BJ Switch was the the optimal strategy was very complicated, and as a result was a VERY different Blackjack game, - where player error could be counted on to significantly increase its hold. This is very similar to UTH, which as a game has a very low official HE, but a very decent hold, also due to strategy difficulty that can be counted on.

This "strategy difficulty" element is pretty much absent in Free Bet Blackjack, me thinks. It's basically "Use Basic Strategy, plus grab all freebie splits and doubles that are on the house," and that is IT to be at < 0.2% of optimal. In that regard, you will NOT have the player error factor that saves the table hold for BJ Switch and UTH. The official House Edge might mean little in BJ Switch and UTH, but may corrolate more closely in FBBJ, and it is both very low and very countable.

So I think, and for what it's worth:
1. this game will be targeted by AP play, and with greater effect. If surveillance and floor supervision ignore it as a carnival game, it compounds things. Strategy is just very easy, and counting it down is also very easy. Its "benefit" as being so closely related to regular Blackjack "without the hangups" may make its AP play just as grab-able.

Remember Geoff, that Three Card Poker's initial release in Atlantic City had the flush pay at 4:1 instead of 3:1, and so its table hold was dismal - disasterous - as an effect. For a little while (that is - FOUR years), - that fine game obtained a temporary and wrongful "funk" or dumping "stench" to it, and casino operators abadon it - jettisoned it - dismissed it outright for a while - and in droves, after it had too many single-digit and negative table holds, regardless of action. 3CP was later introduced [with correction] in Mississippi, where it took off very fine and for good, but after it had lost four years of "patent time," - which is needed now. If AP play has the same effect on FBBJ, it may give this great game a wrongful black eye, and that's the risk.

2. Nothing wrong with a > 0.5% to 1.5% HE, typical of regular Blackjack with restriction, - so nothing wrong with double on only two cards, and nothing wrong with splitting 4's included as a bonus returned to players. One could also remove surrender as a non-standard quirk and unnecessary HE risk that I do NOT think would negate the game in any way - unless the same casino house also uses that on BJ uniformly.

3. On EZ pai Gow, I used a temporary and limited bonus bet, the "Luhn Tao Wheel" bonus version as the initial bonus bet table (with a 2,000:1/Royal+Royal match or 7-card SF max payout), to prevent a $40,000 single table "dump" at 8,000:1 an a $5 bet - which would have killed the new game, - versus a $10K table dump, which would have kept the game, but with some annoyance. AFTER table #15 was installed, we released the full 8000:1 standard bonus Pai Gow paytable, because by then we had a solid install base. And to this day, the smaller casino houses and gambling halls use the "safer" pay table as an existing option, with big install operators using the full-blown 8000:1 mega-paytable.

Better safe and reliably installed, - than get Unintsalled!!


When AP players target a game - while regular players do NOT bungle their play on it, it is a different situation. UTH can always add a > 1% player error rate,
as can BJ Switch, up to. But can FBBJ? That's just a question...

I agree with your comments Dan, FBBJ has nowhere near the complex strategy that Switch has and, as you stated, is actually easier than regular Blackjack.

The players do get hurt more in FBBJ for incorrect Hit/Stand plays due to the 'Push 22' rule. For example, a player that stands on 16 verses a dealer 8 will hurt his/her ev more in a 'push 22' game than in a regular game.

Nevertheless, the trial has served multiple purposes - of course, player interaction was critical if the game is to succeed, but other factors as in dealers' reaction to the game, current rules used, hold, drop etc have been extremely useful in order to tweak the version to give the best overall performance.

There are a couple of new installations, outside Nevada, that will use the tweaked (or 'new' should I say?) version. It will be interesting to follow both the player and casino response to this over the next few weeks.

Dan and/or Switch
Could either of you explain the emphasis on HOLD? I worked for AT&T over 30 + years. Every couple of years a new index or added emphasis on an old index was promoted. Average ticket pick-up time, trouble reports per 1,000 customers, etc.
Recently every blurb on a new game seem to emphasize HOLD as the end all criteria. Yet it is DROP that pays the bills.
I can understand HOLD being seen as a games potential, but drop is what decides whether a table game stays or goes.
I would think being able to say a game increases the drop 20% over the game it replaced or a similar game would be more important.
But then , what the hell do I know! On the perception is reality front, HOLD is the main emphasis. Just wondering if you care to share your insight to us outsiders ??

And , of course. anyone else's opinion is valued. Even Evenbob !

Hi Buzz,

'Hold' is commonly used as a measure to a games performance although the hold % can be affected by other aspects apart from the house edge alone:-

Speed of the game
Complexity of playing basic strategy
Length of time players stay on the game
Volatility of the game

Nevertheless, it is a MIXTURE of HOLD and DROP that gives the actual WIN and this will determine the eventual success or failure of a game.

Thanks switch. It's just that I hardly ever see drop mentioned anymore.

I have only seen SWITCH with the Super Match Side bet.

THE Shufflemaster website does not mention that and says it is available with the Buster Blackjack side bet.

Has anyone seen this version ?

Quote: Paigowdan

I really wasn't defensive, I was simply factual and to the point. I felt my tone was no less aggressive than your own tone, which was at times both dismissive and authoritive, I felt. I just reponded quickly, stating "no, I disagree, here are some details..."

Paigowdan, totally agree. WongBo has the defensive one.