First Skill-Based Slot Machines in Las Vegas Debut at Planet Hollywood
"Skill-based slot machines, the subject of much buzz and speculation over the last couple of years, have officially arrived in a Las Vegas casino."
From Vital Vegas
https://vitalvegas.com/first-skill-based-slot-machines-las-vegas/
Quote: Blonde4everFirst Skill-Based Slot Machines in Las Vegas Debut, Here’s the Low-Down
"Skill-based slot machines, the subject of much buzz and speculation over the last couple of years, have officially arrived in a Las Vegas casino."
From Vital Vegas
https://vitalvegas.com/first-skill-based-slot-machines-las-vegas/
It should be noted the machines currently won’t take loyalty club cards, in case you’re into that kind of thing.
Here’s how they work.
Gamblit Poker is a variation of (wait for it) poker. Players “grab” cards from a common pool of cards, building a hand of five cards. The player with the best hand wins the jackpot, the amount of which is determined by the machine.
Cannonbeard’s Treasure is a variation of blackjack. Players, again, grab cards from a pool of cards. The cards are added up, and the player whose card total is closest to the target number (without going over) wins the pot.
25% house edge!
For example, we saw a couple sit down to play Gamblit Poker. They each bet $5, for a total contribution of $10. The jackpot was $7.50. They had fun playing, but the next pot was the same, ditto the one after that. It didn’t take the couple long to realize they were getting dinged a $2.50 “rake” with each passing hand.
It says there will always be an attendant watching the game because pro players might use tactics to win from novices.
Huh?
So anyone who manages to skilfully win will be labeled an AP? Only novices will be allowed to play at (laughable) skill games?
Gamblit Poker. Worlds first Poker game where pro players going up against ploppies not allowed
Quote: darkozHeres the scariest part of the article
It says there will always be an attendant watching the game because pro players might use tactics to win from novices.
Huh?
So anyone who manages to skilfully win will be labeled an AP? Only novices will be allowed to play at (laughable) skill games?
Gamblit Poker. Worlds first Poker game where pro players going up against ploppies not allowed
I wonder what the "rules of engagement" are if the attendant notes someone consistently winning or "bullying"? Will they drag them out of the casino kicking and screaming? Maybe the machine can be programmed to go into "threatened" mode and handicap the skilled player to even the playing field.
The article mentions that millennials are smarter than previous generations when it comes to gaming. I would suggest that most players today are more knowledgeable across all generations.
"They [millennials] want value for their entertainment dollar." I think the difference in generations is what each perceives as value, an attribute that may have more to do with one's age than their generation. I'm not sure if it is a good or bad business model to cater to a demographic that grew up spending real money on digital livestock.
Let's quote exactly what it said so we can break it down.Quote: darkozHeres the scariest part of the article
It says there will always be an attendant watching the game because pro players might use tactics to win from novices.
Huh?
So anyone who manages to skilfully win will be labeled an AP? Only novices will be allowed to play at (laughable) skill games?
Gamblit Poker. Worlds first Poker game where pro players going up against ploppies not allowed
"Why? Because they have to monitor the play to avoid collusion and bullying. We were told there’s the potential for experienced players, or teams, to take advantage of novice players. Essentially, there’s room for cheating."
Quote: AxelWolfLet's quote exactly what it said so we can break it down.
"Why? Because they have to monitor the play to avoid collusion and bullying. We were told there’s the potential for experienced players, or teams, to take advantage of novice players. Essentially, there’s room for cheating."
They must have read our comments in the other Gamblit Poker thread.....................
Quote: mrsuit31Quote: AxelWolfLet's quote exactly what it said so we can break it down.
"Why? Because they have to monitor the play to avoid collusion and bullying. We were told there’s the potential for experienced players, or teams, to take advantage of novice players. Essentially, there’s room for cheating."
They must have read our comments in the other Gamblit Poker thread.....................
Ya, you never know, especially if people mention all the ways they can or would take advantage of it and then show some math.
Wow.Quote: ThenWhatHappens... I'm not sure if it is a good or bad business model to cater to a demographic that grew up spending real money on digital livestock.
Well said.
Quote: RSThese here darn tootin' millenials and their tomfoolery, I'll tell you hwat. Dang young whippersnappers, using FaceUnion and SexBoxes these days. And now we got gamblin' that ain't even real gambling. Gimme some a dat good ol' fashioned casino gambling games of chance.
Hehe.. Faro anyone? How about some Mublety Peg?
https://www.lasvegasadvisor.com/stiffs-and-georges/
A few thoughts:
1. The art/graphics of the reels weren't appealing enough such that I'd even felt I like I had enough "eye candy" entertainment.
2. Anyone who has played arcade games over the years knows that a game with a worn out/broken controller can ruin a gamer's top potential on the game.
3. My thought about "skill-based" games is that the "skill" element is merely to reach the top payback, not to get more that I otherwise would have won. In other words, in an ordinary slot game, I might expect to get 95% payback on a "loose" game. But in a "skill-based" game, I might have to be awesome at the game to ever hope to reach 95%, otherwise I'd get the typical 90% payback or as low as the state-mandated minimum of 87% or whatever it is. I'd rather play a regular slot game that normally has 95% theoretical payback.
Quote: smoothgrh3. My thought about "skill-based" games is that the "skill" element is merely to reach the top payback, not to get more that I otherwise would have won. In other words, in an ordinary slot game, I might expect to get 95% payback on a "loose" game. But in a "skill-based" game, I might have to be awesome at the game to ever hope to reach 95%, otherwise I'd get the typical 90% payback or as low as the state-mandated minimum of 87% or whatever it is. I'd rather play a regular slot game that normally has 95% theoretical payback.
This is surely how it works. It's the same as Video Poker, playing perfectly will only yield the maximum return that the game is set for. The only difference is that these video game based slots are motor skill, not strategy memory skill. I don't think they are putting these types of games on the floor that can be beat by highly skilled or perfect play.
Quote:1. The art/graphics of the reels weren't appealing enough such that I'd even felt I like I had enough "eye candy" entertainment.
I absolutely agree that neither version's reel graphics were spectacular.
Quote:2. Anyone who has played arcade games over the years knows that a game with a worn out/broken controller can ruin a gamer's top potential on the game.
Yep. But in the case of the slot versions, that busted joystick could make you a big winner if you're the first person to master it...
Quote:3. My thought about "skill-based" games is that the "skill" element is merely to reach the top payback, not to get more that I otherwise would have won. In other words, in an ordinary slot game, I might expect to get 95% payback on a "loose" game. But in a "skill-based" game, I might have to be awesome at the game to ever hope to reach 95%, otherwise I'd get the typical 90% payback or as low as the state-mandated minimum of 87% or whatever it is. I'd rather play a regular slot game that normally has 95% theoretical payback.
That depends on how the game's skill elements and their contribution to payback are set up. The only certainty is that if the hypothetical #1 video gamer in the world played Centipede (or another similar slot) 24/7 while in a casino for a sufficiently long period of time, he/she would eventually lose money to the house edge.
I.E. Some guy shoots his mouth off that he's really good at halo (everyone does this). I perk up and talk a little smack to get him to agree to play me at X property. We go there, both put $100 on the line with a teller/employee in the gaming area, then when I inevitably beat him, I get $195 back (my $100 + $95 of his and $5 to the house). Skilled gaming at its finest.
The only problem with this is: After a year or two no one would be willing to book action if you offered it because all the idiots that suck would get fleeced by real pros and learn the hard way not to actually make a bet.
As MLG has shown for a multitude of games... The only way to keep people coming back and getting big prize pools is to have a league or tons of tournaments. They could do a monthly tournament with a guaranteed prize pool... but again, that would attract all of the sharks. In the end, you can't have a "fair" game that the newbs have a chance at, because they're newbs and they will (and should) lose to a player of higher skill.
Quote: RomesIf they want to make money off "video game players" they need to just make video game gambling a section and offer to host the matches and take a rake like poker.
I.E. Some guy shoots his mouth off that he's really good at halo (everyone does this). I perk up and talk a little smack to get him to agree to play me at X property. We go there, both put $100 on the line with a teller/employee in the gaming area, then when I inevitably beat him, I get $195 back (my $100 + $95 of his and $5 to the house). Skilled gaming at its finest.
It's coming. That's the future of skill based gaming. Not bonus rounds on slot machines.
ZCore13
They could change some kind of rules/laws/distribution, but the way video games have always worked... Once you buy a hard copy of the game (disk) you can put it in the machine and play it however you want. I don't think they'd have a way to control people from betting on the next game played between two people. The casino wouldn't be doing anything with the game itself, just offering their services as a middle man in the transaction to keep the money safe and pay out the appropriate party.Quote: ParadigmWonder if that means the content creators of the video games are going to start getting a new revenue stream from operators that want to use their games/content as a basis to generate gambling revenue?
So it's not like a Video or something, I'm not sure if the laws changed, but I was under the impression you couldn't rent a video and then show it to a group of people without permission or something like that.Quote: RomesThey could change some kind of rules/laws/distribution, but the way video games have always worked... Once you buy a hard copy of the game (disk) you can put it in the machine and play it however you want. I don't think they'd have a way to control people from betting on the next game played between two people. The casino wouldn't be doing anything with the game itself, just offering their services as a middle man in the transaction to keep the money safe and pay out the appropriate party.
Somehow I think if the casinos were doing this, the Video game people would want a cut.
Quote: ParadigmI have to agree with Axel, public viewing of the event if a whole different animal. Just ask your local bar what they pay for an MMA fight versus what you pay at home to have the same content on your TV/Monitor. If Casino's get into public viewing and betting on video game content displayed in the public market, the game developers are going to start asking for a cut.
The game developers will be making the Casino game specifically for that environment. Instead of buying a $20,000 slot machine or leasing a slot machine from Konami or IGT, it will be from companies like EA (Sports games) or Infinity Ward (Call of Duty) or Nintendo (Mario games).
ZCore13
Well they'd be BUYING copies of the game, since they'd be cheap enough ($50 per copy only need a couple copies). After that what's to stop me from letting my friend play my copy of the game I bought?Quote: AxelWolfSo it's not like a Video or something, I'm not sure if the laws changed, but I was under the impression you couldn't rent a video and then show it to a group of people without permission or something like that.
Somehow I think if the casinos were doing this, the Video game people would want a cut.
They're not viewing an "event" it's a local game. It's not a televised promotion. So you're telling me if I have a party and 100 people show up and I play a game of Halo (not even online but privately) they're not allowed to watch? lol?
Instead of buying a few more $20k slot machines... How about 10 flat screens (bundled at about $700 each) then 10 xboxes (bundled at about $300 each), then the top 10 biggest games (10 copies each) at $60 a piece... That alone adds up to $16k and opens up an entire new wing of the casino to an entirely new market of patrons.Quote: Zcore13The game developers will be making the Casino game specifically for that environment. Instead of buying a $20,000 slot machine or leasing a slot machine from Konami or IGT, it will be from companies like EA (Sports games) or Infinity Ward (Call of Duty) or Nintendo (Mario games).
ZCore13
Exactly what I said in my earlier post. The newbs will play for a year or two because hey it's the new thing and maybe they can win. But once the word has spread that you'll just lose unless you're pro then people will stop playing. MLG has been going strong for decades because they do MONTHLY tournaments all over in major cities, etc. Even they had the same couple teams always winning for years in Halo, but every now and then they'd have an upset to an up and coming team which was enough hope to get everyone involved. Plus, if you're that good (but not pro) it was something you always wanted to do... just play in an MLG event. So every new city had a new list of people that just wanted to play in one and basically donated their money to the top teams. Then they'd make the tour again the next year for the people that missed, the fresh faces, and the returning people that think they can do better.Quote: ParadigmI still wonder who will play these skill based video games except the pros/sharks...
Quote: RomesThey're not viewing an "event" it's a local game. It's not a televised promotion. So you're telling me if I have a party and 100 people show up and I play a game of Halo (not even online but privately) they're not allowed to watch? lol?
This is exactly what I am saying...private space vs. public space and the uses are different. I guarantee that if this type of public viewing/wagering event was known to be happening, and it will be if this event is played in big tournaments at casinos where you can wager on players or on each other, that this "commercial use" is not part of the use that a $60 game copy that you buy at GameStop provides.
ZCore13
Quote: vitalvegasRead both! Articles are hard. ")
Is this the real Mr vital? If so welcome to the forum
Quote: Zcore13No way on earth you can but and Xbox and game and put it in a casino for the casinos to make money.
ZCore13
Why not? There are a bunch of huge video game tournaments. They could set it up like poker rooms and take a rake.
The residential/personal and commercial/business accounts are completely two separate entities. If you fraudulently apply residential account for commercial use, you then violate the publisher/manufacturer’s user agreement or term of contract, and can be criminally and/or civilly prosecuted under IP theft statutes or other applicable laws.
Quote: gamerfreakWhy not? There are a bunch of huge video game tournaments. They could set it up like poker rooms and take a rake.
Because an XBox you can buy at Target will not meet the specifications required of an electronic device used in gaming in any jurisdiction.
Quote: ParadigmBecause an XBox you can buy at Target will not meet the specifications required of an electronic device used in gaming in any jurisdiction.
The machine is not determining the outcome, unlike other electronic gaming devices. Do casinos have to abide by different rules than competitive game leagues with six figure prizes?
Quote: 777You can play solo in a skill based game, and don't need opponent(s).
Wasn't this Ahigh's company concept? Single player pinball & Pacman...big problem is resolutions per hour and the amount of "game play" that is really possible in 30 seconds or less...or the fact that you have to play each game for $25-$50 min bet per game to make up for the 3 minutes of time takes to get one resolution.
Quote: gamerfreakThe machine is not determining the outcome, unlike other electronic gaming devices. Do casinos have to abide by different rules than competitive game leagues with six figure prizes?
Yes
Quote: RomesIf they want to make money off "video game players" they need to just make video game gambling a section and offer to host the matches and take a rake like poker.
I.E. Some guy shoots his mouth off that he's really good at halo (everyone does this). I perk up and talk a little smack to get him to agree to play me at X property. We go there, both put $100 on the line with a teller/employee in the gaming area, then when I inevitably beat him, I get $195 back (my $100 + $95 of his and $5 to the house). Skilled gaming at its finest.
The only problem with this is: After a year or two no one would be willing to book action if you offered it because all the idiots that suck would get fleeced by real pros and learn the hard way not to actually make a bet.
As MLG has shown for a multitude of games... The only way to keep people coming back and getting big prize pools is to have a league or tons of tournaments. They could do a monthly tournament with a guaranteed prize pool... but again, that would attract all of the sharks. In the end, you can't have a "fair" game that the newbs have a chance at, because they're newbs and they will (and should) lose to a player of higher skill.
1v1 me noob snipers quickscopes only
Quote: ParadigmWasn't this Ahigh's company concept? Single player pinball & Pacman...big problem is resolutions per hour and the amount of "game play" that is really possible in 30 seconds or less...or the fact that you have to play each game for $25-$50 min bet per game to make up for the 3 minutes of time takes to get one resolution.
It's kinda hard to have a skill based game that plays a fast as a slot or regular VP game.
If one were to use the idea I have, it solves that problem. I think they are doing all wrong.
Quote: AxelWolfIt's kinda hard to have a skill based game that plays a fast as a slot or regular VP game.
If one were to use the idea I have, it solves that problem. I think they are doing all wrong.
Would you just focus on getting your VP idea in the works. Best damn idea I ever heard for something new. One problem at a time. 😄
It seems that the people who are qualified and motivated at doing this stuff think their ideas are really good and yours probably isn't. If you know someone who wants a good idea to work with let me know.Quote: MaxPenWould you just focus on getting your VP idea in the works. Best damn idea I ever heard for something new. One problem at a time. 😄
I had my shot with IGT years ago, I heard an NDA wouldn't protect me, so I got scared off and never presented it.
From what I have been told, almost everything is done in house and it's almost imposable nowadays for anyone to get in with them.
Quote: AxelWolfIt seems that the people who are qualified and motivated at doing this stuff think their ideas are really good and yours probably isn't. If you know someone who wants a good idea to work with let me know.
I had my shot with IGT years ago, I heard an NDA wouldn't protect me, so I got scared off and never presented it.
From what I have been told, almost everything is done in house and it's almost imposable nowadays for anyone to get in with them.
I've heard that, too. However, Dan Lubin recommended US Coin as someone who would look at a slot and respect your IP. You might try them.
On another note, the casinos, via their convention/arena facilities, have already played host to many big video game tournaments over the years. It seems to me that they're just fine with making the easy money renting out the space, charging for tickets to watch grand finals in person, etc. They could definitely get into the small tournament space (and I believe Downtown Grand has already attempted to), but I don't see them trying to run their own MLG, EVO, Dreamhack, or other similar big event.
I also think that we're giving the general public too much credit here. They'll probably be able to figure out that their RTP against a pro gamer heads-up is going to approach 0%, and correctly stop. That still leaves machines, and I think the main issue is finding the right kind of machine. Right now the casinos are mostly going for luck-skill hybrid machines, but I would hope that they would turn to pure skill machines sooner rather than later...
Consider a modern-day arcade with redemption games. Even after excluding those who are too young to gamble, there are still folks of all ages more than willing to habitually go to an arcade and "get pwn3d" by ticket games of pure skill whose RTPs are supposed to be 40% or lower. There is money for the casinos to make, if they were able and willing to put in similar games even at the regulatory-mandated minimum of 75%. Many of these pure skill games in the arcade also allow for single or multiplayer gaming. Translating that to the casino environment, there could be a game with a skill-based prize always in play, and then in a multiplayer game, a competitive prize going to the 1st-place finisher that is independent of and in addition to the skill-based prize.
Quote: AxelWolfIt seems that the people who are qualified and motivated at doing this stuff think their ideas are really good and yours probably isn't. If you know someone who wants a good idea to work with let me know.
I had my shot with IGT years ago, I heard an NDA wouldn't protect me, so I got scared off and never presented it.
From what I have been told, almost everything is done in house and it's almost imposable nowadays for anyone to get in with them.
Some gaming companies will not sign NDA's with game developers. Your only protection is to get the patent filed before showing the idea. Most gaming companies that I know of will still look at 3rd party game concepts. In general they will not be interested unless they can charge the casino a recurring fee for it. I partnered with IGT many years ago on some daily fee games but sadly they were flops.
When Ernie Moody came up with Triple Play IGT wasn't interested in buying it so he had to pay IGT to build it for him. I would say it worked out okay for him in the end.
