Video Poker Discussions/Surveys
What seems to be missing is much discussion [oops, see edit]
Edit: sorry, just saw this and at first thought it was an old thread. Anyone find the site useful?
Quote: odiousgambitYou know, the Wizard at his main site has a wealth of information on videopoker: strategy guides, games with tutoring, and a great evaluation program. He clearly put in a lot of work on this!
What seems to be missing is much discussion on the best places to find good machines. Perhaps there is a desire "to keep your mouth shut" but honestly the casinos now must be totally aware of the situation of near zero house edge and be all over that. What might be going on now, I'm thinking, is competition. If we don't say the best places to go, get some surveys here for example, what competitive incentive is there? For other areas of the country too.
Perhaps I'm all wet?
No, you are right on, and not just VP. Good BJ rules are needed too. Read the book "Supercasino." It is the story of Bill Pennington and Bill Bennett building Circus Circus, with other Vegas stuff thrown in.
Bennett turned a casino around by really loosening the slots. They said a million more a day in "wins" yet just $3,000 of that left the casino. Probably even less when you consider many people win a few bucks and treat themselves to dinner with it.
I totally feel people want MORE PLAY and are getting less and less play. For every penny an advantage player takes out of a VP machine some regular joe will drop a nickel.
Quote: odiousgambitYou know, the Wizard at his main site has a wealth of information on videopoker: strategy guides, games with tutoring, and a great evaluation program. He clearly put in a lot of work on this!
What seems to be missing is much discussion [oops, see edit]
Edit: sorry, just saw this and at first thought it was an old thread. Anyone find the site useful?
I find vpFREE2 to be a good resource, especially at the price (free, of course :^) ). I'd say my biggest complaint about it is that they only show the best machines in the casino. For instance, if you search for 7-5 Jacks or Better, you come up with no hits, not because they don't exist (you can't throw a quarter without hitting one), but because they're not catalogued by the monitors. It would be nice to get a better overview of the full array of games offered at a casino, instead of just the best, especially since the best tend to be out of most people's budgets (depending on where you go). The best games might be really good, but the common games might be terrible compared to a casino across the street.
The Wizard also mentions VPInsider, which is a subscription service. I don't know much about it, since I'm not a subscriber. It's probably more comprehensive than vpFREE2, but it may not be worth the $35-$45 a year to you.
*was there a "Heyday" for videopoker advantage play that is now gone?
*are there still a considerable number of "insiders" who seek out advantage play? or just a few who stick with it?
*is there less opportunity for advantage play than vpFREE2 etc suggests?
*are there "casino heat" problems?
*is card counting in BJ actually the way to go for those interested in advantage play?
*is it just simply too hard to play without errors for the average guy for it to be worth it?
*is there too much chance of ruin even with advantage play for the average guy to be able to "take it"?
I'll let you know soon the results of an experiment I am doing with one of the Wizard's practice games.
I moved to Vegas in Feb. 01, and have seen the video poker scene get worse and worse through the years. I'm told it was already on the decline before I arrived. So I'm not a good one to say when it peaked, but the 90's were probably the best decade.
*are there still a considerable number of "insiders" who seek out advantage play? or just a few who stick with it?
Yes. The number of professional players who rely on VP for 100% of their income is probably quite small. Most video poker players have other advantage plays in their bag of tricks.
*is there less opportunity for advantage play than vpFREE2 etc suggests?
What do they suggest?
*are there "casino heat" problems?
Not nearly as much as in blackjack, but lots of casinos have sh*t lists of players who only play full-pay machines on multiple-point days.
*is card counting in BJ actually the way to go for those interested in advantage play?
If forced to a yes or no answer, I'd say no. It depends what you're good at, and what you like, but making in blackjack is tough these days.
*is it just simply too hard to play without errors for the average guy for it to be worth it?
No. Learning the strategy is not that hard. It is hard to say what the cost of mistakes are. I tend to think it is higher than most VP players will acknowledge.
*is there too much chance of ruin even with advantage play for the average guy to be able to "take it"?
You do need a very big bankroll for video poker. I'm sure that keeps a lot of players away, and busts out others. It keeps me from doing some good plays at high denominations.
Quote: Wizard...
*is there less opportunity for advantage play than vpFREE2 etc suggests?
What do they suggest?
Thanks for replying...
Well, for example right off the bat you see this when you go to their site:
"Aliante Station Casino and Hotel
Best VP: 100.76% FPDW (FP)..."
Would in fact it not be so easy to just haul yourself over there and start playing, or do you find these machines have vanished, and instead you are largely dependent on, I dunno, scuttlebutt to find advantage machines?
Quote: odiousgambitWould in fact it not be so easy to just haul yourself over there and start playing, or do you find these machines have vanished, and instead you are largely dependent on, I dunno, scuttlebutt to find advantage machines?
A little of both, probably. They do have people checking things out on a regular basis (theoretically), but it doesn't hurt to run over and make sure things are as you were told. I've seen +EV machines out there, but they're at such low limits as to almost make them useless for someone trying to make a living off them, plus the bankroll you'd need to avoid ruin could probably be put to better use elsewhere (imo).
I can play DDB strategy perfectly and it pays 9-6-4 @98.98%.
I can play JOB almost perfectly and it pays at 9-6-4 @99.54%.
I can play DW not quite as perfectly and it pays 9-4-4-3-2 @98.91%.
Does the perfectly in the first scenario trump the second based on perfect play ?
Quote: teddysPlay whatever game gets you the best comps and the best cashback offers, since you are losing money regardless.
The comps are the same as long as you are playing the same amounts. I have only been playing VP for 3.5 years and I am actually ahead. I am sure it will catch up to me eventually. Also, I have not paid for a room or a meal in over 2 years and that has to count for something !
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Plus, Harrah's has decimated their VP inventory and there aren't very many good games to play anymore. Is there anything good left in Tahoe?
Last weekend I lost about $1,000 playing the quarters. I think I only got 3 4ofK in all that time. Pretty frustrating when the machine right next to you hits 4ofK two or three times in half an hour.
As an aside to the long time VP players, I've heard tell that Jacks or better use to be 10-7 in the 90's instead of 9-6 which would be 101.94% return. Is that true? What were the best games and pay tables like back in the 90's?
Quote: helpmespockI do use vpfree2 to find the 9-6 Jacks or Better games which seem harder and harder to find these days.
As an aside to the long time VP players, I've heard tell that Jacks or better use to be 10-7 in the 90's instead of 9-6 which would be 101.94% return. Is that true? What were the best games and pay tables like back in the 90's?
There were some 10/6 Jacksorbetter games but I don't remember any 10/7. Didn't really matter to me though. I just played until all my credits were gone anyway ):
Quote: teddysSeems like a risky play, but you are doing well. With 99% DDB at $5, you are giving up $25 an hour at 500 hands an hour. That's a pretty tough house edge to buck, but sounds like you've hit the positive end of the variance. Perhaps you get enough in comps back to justify the higher house edge. That's probably true. $5 a hand is just too high for me. I started playing it this year and just hit a royal for $4,000, but was down $2,800 before I hit it. I just can't take those kind of swings, so I'm going back to quarters.
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Plus, Harrah's has decimated their VP inventory and there aren't very many good games to play anymore. Is there anything good left in Tahoe?
There are some decent machines still left in Tahoe but all at the $1 level. For JOB there are 9/6 machines aplenty and for the DDB, the machines are also 9/6. I have also found 2 - 10/6 DB games at the Peppermill in Reno. They are in a back corner and hard to find but they are there, but they are also $1 machines. As per hands per hour, I always play with someone and we rotate taking turns so that it does not go as fast. Also, when I lose a specific number of hands in a row, I will switch to another game to "shake it up." I always check all of the games at the machine and pick the 3 games with the highest paybacks so I know what to switch to when the bad streak happens.
I used to worry about the pay tables until a few years ago. Now I just play and see what happens. I don't play enough to get into any longterm anyway so it's all just a gamble to me. The pay tables are usually decent because I only play $1 $2 and $5 games with the occasional $10 thrown in. I've hit more than my share of royals, but my problem has always been I kick it up a notch to the next highest denomination after the royal and those machines seem to take a lot more than they give. If I could just learn not to climb after getting a wad of cash paid to me I'd be a winner for sure.
Quote: WizardYou do need a very big bankroll for video poker. I'm sure that keeps a lot of players away, and busts out others. It keeps me from doing some good plays at high denominations.
Can you give an example of a "good play" you're referring to?
How big of a bankroll would you recommend for $.25 FPDW, and for the $1 Loose Deuces Wild game @ 100.15%?
Quote: LondonPrideCan you give an example of a "good play" you're referring to?
There are lots of good plays at the higher denoms. Read Jean Scott's blog or Bob Dancer's Casino Gaming column, where he outs many of them. We are talking denoms out of the range of mere mortals, though, so it's pretty useless info.
To be able to "play forever" at FPDW, you should probably have at least $5K. The great thing about that game is that your bankroll will increase over time so your risk of ruin will constantly go down.Quote: LondonPrideHow big of a bankroll would you recommend for $.25 FPDW, and for the $1 Loose Deuces Wild game @ 100.15%?
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I would not play $1 LDW. It's extremely volatile, and will bust you out quickly if you're not prepared. If you don't have $25K devoted to gambling exclusively, I would not even go near it.
Quote: JerryLoganThere were some 10/6 Jacksorbetter games but I don't remember any 10/7. Didn't really matter to me though. I just played until all my credits were gone anyway ):
There were a few 9/7 and 10/6 Jacks at the Stratosphere. Everywhere else, JOB was 9/6 or worse.
Quote: odiousgambitHow about this for further discussion? I have no answers, just a bunch of questions.
*was there a "Heyday" for videopoker advantage play that is now gone?
*are there still a considerable number of "insiders" who seek out advantage play? or just a few who stick with it?
*is there less opportunity for advantage play than vpFREE2 etc suggests?
*are there "casino heat" problems?
*is card counting in BJ actually the way to go for those interested in advantage play?
*is it just simply too hard to play without errors for the average guy for it to be worth it?
*is there too much chance of ruin even with advantage play for the average guy to be able to "take it"?
I'll let you know soon the results of an experiment I am doing with one of the Wizard's practice games.
1. The number of good games is approximately 3% of what it was in, say, 2001.
2. The number of advantage players has dropped dramatically. There are still a few players trying to scratch out a living, but many, many more have busted out as they became forced to play with very small edges.
3. Advantage play is still possible, but only at modest denominations, or temporarily during promotions, which never last very long any more if they're any good (because of 2., above).
4. Yes, both in video poker and in BJ. As far as VP goes, advantage players often get their slot club accounts emptied out or canceled (which often removes the possibility of obtaining any advantage), have been removed from mailing lists, and in some cases, have simply been told not to play.
5. Heat and terrible playing conditions have made BJ pretty much a dead duck as far as AP goes.
6. Pretty much, yeah, since your edge is razor-thin and you are fighting bigger disadvantages off the top.
7. It all depends on bankroll, and the vast majority of wannabe APs drastically underestimate the amount needed.
Quote: LondonPrideIs there some sort of formula to use for figuring out a proper bankroll for each game? That way I won't have to ask for every single game and can figure it out on my own. Thanks.
The "formula" would depend on what "risk of ruin" you were willing to tolerate. I've always had a rule of thumb for FPDW or FPJW, each of which return well over 100%, that my bankroll should be five royals, or $5000 at the .25 level. I believe this corresponds to a 1% risk of ruin, i.e., going broke before you manage to increase your bankroll to the point where RoR is essentially nil.
Wizard, how are the cards on your site programmed to deal/draw? 5 over 5, sequential 10 card deal, or continuous shuffle?
Quote: JerryLoganI used to worry about the pay tables until a few years ago. Now I just play and see what happens.
I just saw this post from awhile back. Jerry is definitely one of a kind! RIP from this forum Jerry!
Quote: clarkacalI just saw this post from awhile back. Jerry is definitely one of a kind! RIP from this forum Jerry!
HAHAHAHA
Quote: clarkacalI just saw this post from awhile back. Jerry is definitely one of a kind! RIP from this forum Jerry!
Well, he's right - it doesn't do any good to worry about the pay tables while you are playing. You chose to play.
Quote: dmWell, he's right - it doesn't do any good to worry about the pay tables while you are playing. You chose to play.
Are you joking?
Quote: JerryLoganHere's a question on the discussion recently about how the cards are dealt on the vp machines.
Wizard, how are the cards on your site programmed to deal/draw? 5 over 5, sequential 10 card deal, or continuous shuffle?
I've been meaning to ask this question for some time now.
I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or search for it among the old ones.
This is a resurrection of a very early thread that I found in search, MKL and JL starting to go at it(those were the days!).
Anyways, JL's question was NEVER answered....How ARE the cards dealt on the WOO site, a Game King, or any other machine for that matter?
10 cards are pulled on the INITIAL deal. Numbered 1 through 10.
You get dealt cards 1 through 5.
If four cards are held, you get card 6 on the draw.
If three cards are held, you get cards 6 and 7 on the draw.
If two cards are held, you get cards 6,7 and 8 on the draw.
If one card is held, you get cards 6,7,8 and 9 on the draw.
If no card is held, you get cards 6,7,8,9 and 10 on the draw.
For instance, if cards 1, 2, and 4 are held, the final hand will be cards 1, 2, 8, 4, 10.
In the end, this makes no difference in the math, but it can alter your perception of the game. If you understand exactly how it works, eventually you won't say "if I only held the ...." In fact, I don't even look at the outcome on video poker so long as I know I made the right hold.
Quote: tringlomaneDoes any class III machine actually autohold? I've only seen it with class II machines where proper strategy doesn't matter anyway.
That's correct, but it's not going to help anyone learn anything for when they do play a real VP machine.
Quote: Mission146That's correct, but it's not going to help anyone learn anything for when they do play a real VP machine.
Yeah I agree. It's been a few years since I played one, but iirc, it insisted on holding SOMETHING on every hand. I'm assuming this so the player knew the autohold feature completed? So it liked to occasionally hold a single card like an 8 for example. I don't recall it making any errors outside of this, but it very well may have.
There are other examples, but that's the one that immediately jumps to mind.
Quote: CrystalMathOn a Game King, it is not like the way you have described. When the player hits the deal button, 5 cards are chosen. When the player hits the draw button, an additional 5 cards are drawn. These cards are drawn for each specific position.
For instance, if cards 1, 2, and 4 are held, the final hand will be cards 1, 2, 8, 4, 10.
In the end, this makes no difference in the math, but it can alter your perception of the game. If you understand exactly how it works, eventually you won't say "if I only held the ...." In fact, I don't even look at the outcome on video poker so long as I know I made the right hold.
Thank You!
For that excellent, easy and concise answer. It really is random...more random than I thought.
Quote: ten2winThank You!
For that excellent, easy and concise answer. It really is random...more random than I thought.
You're welcome.
Quote: tringlomaneDoes any class III machine actually autohold? I've only seen it with class II machines where proper strategy doesn't matter anyway.
Most Class III Gamekings are built with autohold as an option, but I've never seen it configured. I can't vouch for their accuracy. In jurisdictions that don't permit autohold, the software is built without the option.
In Montana, autohold is the standard, but not required (I think), and they are class III. I know they are not perfect, but most of the time, you can find players who continually change the suggested cards.
