Videopoker-A Constant Loss! Why??!
What I have noticed is that I am basically ALWAYS in the red. Yes, it is gambling and that should not be a surprise ... but everyone always seems to say VP gives the "slot" player the best advantage.
More often than not, I can put money into a slot and the money goes up and goes down and sometimes hits relatively large. On Jacks or Better style VP - online or in the casino - once the money goes in it just drops and drops and drops. I play with what should be "near" perfect strategy as by the guidelines for each specific hand dealt on the Wizards site.
Am I missing something??? I can burn through a $100 bill on VP following all the strategy guidelines in 5 minutes - and have every time I have tried it. Putting that much into a Kitty Glitter or Wheel Of Fortune Slot etc. would, far more often than not, ride for a good amount of time with ebbs and flows in win/loss. With VP it's loss after loss after loss with an occasional payout that just covers my bet.
What gives?!
Quote: TheHofHi all, I'm relatively new to VP but have studied up on the Wizard of Odds and spent hours and hours on practice games on that site and others.
What I have noticed is that I am basically ALWAYS in the red. Yes, it is gambling and that should not be a surprise ... but everyone always seems to say VP gives the "slot" player the best advantage.
More often than not, I can put money into a slot and the money goes up and goes down and sometimes hits relatively large. On Jacks or Better style VP - online or in the casino - once the money goes in it just drops and drops and drops. I play with what should be "near" perfect strategy as by the guidelines for each specific hand dealt on the Wizards site.
Am I missing something??? I can burn through a $100 bill on VP following all the strategy guidelines in 5 minutes - and have every time I have tried it. Putting that much into a Kitty Glitter or Wheel Of Fortune Slot etc. would, far more often than not, ride for a good amount of time with ebbs and flows in win/loss. With VP it's loss after loss after loss with an occasional payout that just covers my bet.
What gives?!
Thats because the volatility of jacks or better is so high. There are HUGE swings in that game. Or you might say the bell curve is VERY steep in that game. If you want to make your money last longer play double double bonus. That game has less volatility. Your bankroll will last longer. But remember with less "volatility" you have less of a chance for hitting BIG. But dont take my word for it. The wizard says the same thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwARnurpM3A
Quote: MangoJThe most part of EV comes from the royal flush, which happens every 40k hands (or something). Unless you play significantly more hands than 40k - even with good payout table - you will almost always be in the reds.
This isn't quite true. On JoB, you'll be up one unit or more at some point during a session over 50-85% of the time, depending on your total bankroll.
This fact allows one ex-poster to claim an 85% wining session system quite comfortably. I didn't think it was true, but I simulated VP on various pay backs, and it is indeed so. there's a pst f mine called Simulating Singer that shows this.
Quote: vert1276Thats because the volatility of jacks or better is so high. There are HUGE swings in that game. Or you might say the bell curve is VERY steep in that game. If you want to make your money last longer play double double bonus. That game has less volatility. Your bankroll will last longer. But remember with less "volatility" you have less of a chance for hitting BIG. But dont take my word for it. The wizard says the same thing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwARnurpM3A
You've got it totally backwards. JOB is one of the least volatile games and DDB one of the highest. Think of volatility as a roller coaster ride. The ups and downs in DDB are much larger when compared to JOB. JOB is much steadier, almost to the point that most players find it boring.
The more I go there, the more I see the huge variations in VP they have. I know it might be a matter of opinion but, what variation of VP would be considered the most "potentially profitable" to play? I'm not expecting a Royal, but looking for a game that has the most "table like" possibilities - where you have the chance to catch a flow and if you know when to walk you can make a bit of money. I know catching a "flow" is not really a reality in a Video machine .... but I guess what I'm asking is "What variation of VP and how do the "Pros" play!" :)
I agree, the JOB can get a bit tedious .... and it just seems like it's loss loss loss with a couple weak paying pairs thrown in.
Thanks!!
By the way, I wouldn't bother playing at Saratoga. That's not real video poker. It's a bingo lottery with a video poker "front." You'd do better playing at Mohegan Sun, or even better, Atlantic City.
Quote: VegasVic14You've got it totally backwards. JOB is one of the least volatile games and DDB one of the highest. Think of volatility as a roller coaster ride. The ups and downs in DDB are much larger when compared to JOB. JOB is much steadier, almost to the point that most players find it boring.
You may very well be right as I have played VP maybe 1 hour in my whole life LOL.......Never been the kind of guy who can sit at a VP machine or slot machine. I only play craps, Pai Gow and poker. BUT...............I was only restating what the wizard of odds says in his video about volatility of VP.
Can you watch the youtube link and tell me what the wizard means at the 9:30 part of the video? He seems to be saying DDB has less volatility. Or am I miss understanding him?
Now, if I were to play DBP for a spell and I do the $5 max bid, typically what kind of bank should I be working with. At BJ table games, depending on what the table minimum is, I have a good average of how much $$ to have with me as a bank - generally it's a little less than the "standard" bank percentage but over time I have figured what works for me.
Is playing the max on these even worth it on most machines? From what I recall, their DBP only had a true advantage on a Royal.
Thanks again!
Quote: gofaster87My favorite game is 10/7/5 Double Bonus which you most likely wont find out there. Vegas has it up to the dollar denom.
And you don't have to bother with attendants showing up on anything less than a Royal because none of the smaller wins are high enough to lock-up the machine.
Quote: TheHofWith VP it's loss after loss after loss with an occasional payout that just covers my bet.
I just want to say that you are not alone.
Quote: TheHofSaratoga does have Double Bonus Poker ... I tried it for a bit but for what ever reason there was no "Double or Nothing" option. Next time I go I will look further into it ... it was a $1 machine.
Now, if I were to play DBP for a spell and I do the $5 max bid, typically what kind of bank should I be working with. At BJ table games, depending on what the table minimum is, I have a good average of how much $$ to have with me as a bank - generally it's a little less than the "standard" bank percentage but over time I have figured what works for me.
Is playing the max on these even worth it on most machines? From what I recall, their DBP only had a true advantage on a Royal.
Thanks again!
How long you choose to play is always an individual decision, but most VP players set up their gaming time in what we call "sessions". If you play fast, you'll obviously go through your bankroll quicker than someone who plays at a leisurely pace. At $1 machines, a session of $600-$800 may satisfy you....or it may not. Ultimately, your session allowance is determined by what your are willing to lose. BTW, in VP, ALWAYS play maximum coin in.
Fortunately, in the same week of my unsuccessful attempt at VP, the slots (which I normally avoid except for small amounts or if there are no tables around) were very kind. Actually hit $600 on a Wheel Of Fortune. The best part of that was, I had been playing penny slots for a bit and when I saw the $600 on a 2xBonus spin I was thoroughly UNEXCITED. People around me started saying "You hit!!" and I said "big f'n deal". I forgot it was a dollar machine and was thinking I won 600 pennies until it locked up and spit my ticket out :)
I'll leave it to the experts to decide if this statement is true or not and whether it holds true over all the various forms of Video Poker or not. My only comment would be to echo the sentiments of the gambler, formerly of Vegas, who played Video Poker for ten years and never once hit a Royal Flush. Never!Quote: MangoJThe most part of EV comes from the royal flush, which happens every 40k hands (or something). Unless you play significantly more hands than 40k - even with good payout table - you will almost always be in the reds.
Quote: FleaStiffI'll leave it to the experts to decide if this statement is true or not and whether it holds true over all the various forms of Video Poker or not. My only comment would be to echo the sentiments of the gambler, formerly of Vegas, who played Video Poker for ten years and never once hit a Royal Flush. Never!
May have played 10 years, but obviously did not put many hours in.
Remember, one only hits a Royal every 40 hours or so and that's if they are playing 800 hands per hour.
It is very difficult to play over 320 hours without hitting a Royal, which would be eight cycles.
If one plays perfectly, or exceptionally close to perfect strategy, in the longrun the player will come out ahead.
If one did the above and put in 1000 hours over the longhaul at various casinos, it would be almost impossible for the player to be in the red.
Quote: gofaster87If you want to be properly be banked for a session of VP you should have at least 1/2 a royal which would be 2k on dollar VP. This is if you're serious about playing a positive EV situation. Anything less and you're really depending on a lucky hit.
I agree..this is what I was always told..you want your bankroll to be half a royal. (I play 50c so I have a $1000 bankroll)
Quote: TIMSPEEDI agree..this is what I was always told..you want your bankroll to be half a royal. (I play 50c so I have a $1000 bankroll)
with that amount of bankroll, what sort of ending payout do you tend to stand earning - or usually end up earning I should say??
I went to Finger Lakes gaming (Farmington) and found a very "favorable" DDB Video Poker with a bonus hand. I ended up winning about $20 on it and then realized that the payback for all of the machines are set at 93 percent, no matter what the pay tables show. Theoretically, you could throw away 4 of a kind and get back 4 of a kind.
Egads.Quote: boymimbono matter what the pay tables show.
So where are the various classes rigorously defined?
Quote: teddysTheHof -- I was going to PM you about this, but people should know. You should stay away from the VP machines at Saratoga. Those aren't true odds poker machines. They are bingo machines with a predetermined result (Class II gaming devices). There isn't actually any skill involved.
Oohhhh, thank you! That puts things in a bit more of a perspective. I had read about the Class II devices .... and it all makes more sense. Given all the talk about VP having a slight larger edge due to skill, I could not understand how at Saratoga no matter what I did I was truly "pissing" money away. And as much as slots are a bore to me, after loosing $300 on a "skill" machine in Saratoga, I was able to recoup it bit by bit on freakin Kitty Glitter machines! That's what lead to my confusion about why it was considered the better option in Video Gaming.
Quote: JIMMYFOCKERMay have played 10 years, but obviously did not put many hours in.
Remember, one only hits a Royal every 40 hours or so and that's if they are playing 800 hands per hour.
It is very difficult to play over 320 hours without hitting a Royal, which would be eight cycles.
A few years ago (on a cruise ship, no less), I hit a Royal flush on a progressive on a Tuesday, and another Royal Flush progressive 2 days later and I don't think I had a total of 4 hours of play invested in those sessions, so Royals can come your way anytime. I have hit for 21 Royals in the 7 years I have been playing VP; I play about 100 hours a year and closer to a 600 hands per hour rate. I would say I am ahead of the rate you propose is typical.
Quote: TheHofThank you for all the info! Usually I just go for the tables, but the closest tables casino is about 3 hours away. An all video casino (Saratoga Racino) is just 20 minutes away which is why I started to "study" on video poker.
The more I go there, the more I see the huge variations in VP they have. I know it might be a matter of opinion but, what variation of VP would be considered the most "potentially profitable" to play? I'm not expecting a Royal, but looking for a game that has the most "table like" possibilities - where you have the chance to catch a flow and if you know when to walk you can make a bit of money. I know catching a "flow" is not really a reality in a Video machine .... but I guess what I'm asking is "What variation of VP and how do the "Pros" play!" :)
I agree, the JOB can get a bit tedious .... and it just seems like it's loss loss loss with a couple weak paying pairs thrown in.
Thanks!!
For what you're looking for, I recommend JOB. It's actually the opposite of how you put it, despite your experience so far. JOB is more like win win loss loss loss win win loss loss loss (not literally), which is the closest to blackjack and such. Other games like the Bonus games will have you losing fast until you hit a big payout. I also highly recommend you get WinPoker and VP Strategy Master. These are must haves, especially the former.
Go to a real casino and play a real VP machine. The worst you'll do (E. Coast) is a real 95%, and you should expect 97%.
JMH $0.02
Quote: TIMSPEEDI agree..this is what I was always told..you want your bankroll to be half a royal. (I play 50c so I have a $1000 bankroll)
For one session.
To play the game properly you will need a much bigger bankroll.
At minimum, 4x that of what a Royal pays on a Jacks or better, dueces wild, or double bonus machine.
Remember, try to play on promotional days.
Quote: JIMMYFOCKERFor one session.
To play the game properly you will need a much bigger bankroll.
At minimum, 4x that of what a Royal pays on a Jacks or better, dueces wild, or double bonus machine.
Remember, try to play on promotional days.
Correct. Any time I sit down to put a session on vP, I have $1000 on me. My TOTAL bankroll is not really determined, as I just keep adding money when needed, so I always have $1000 on me when I play vP
Quote: TIMSPEEDCorrect. Any time I sit down to put a session on vP, I have $1000 on me. My TOTAL bankroll is not really determined, as I just keep adding money when needed, so I always have $1000 on me when I play vP
Ya, the whole "bankroll" thing doesn't make sense to me, because who actually sits down and says OK I have $15,000 in the bank, and I'm going to stop gambling if I hit -$3000; my bankroll is $3000 exactly. I mean how long are you gonna stop for? Life? So you have to calculate your entire bankroll for your life? Year? What if you run out at in that year, do you then start with the same amount at the start of the next year? That's why you can't just put an exact number on your bankroll.
