New VP Tool

The Wiz has given me permission to announce to this forum a new Video Poker tool.

Shortly, Play Perfect LLC will release a Wear OS3 companion to its Pro+ mobile app (from Play Store). Here “Wear companion” is Google talk for an Android Watch (we plan for an Apple version later this year).

On a mobile device (like a phone or tablet), a Pro+ user first selects one of over 400 VP games in the app and then a pay table for that game. For those who are unaware, the app can be used in one of three modes:

ADVICE mode: This is used if you have a VP hand and are stumped on how to play it optimally – enter the cards and the cards to hold are colored green.
PRACTICE mode: Here random hands are dealt and your selected hold cards are scored while showing the best possible plays when you err.
PLAY mode: This is used if you just want to play various Video Poker games for fun and learn Perfect Play as you go.

After the wear companion syncs with the mobile device, the Advice mode is usable from the Watch (10 free times and then permanently after a one-time in-app, unlocking purchase).

For example, here is a screenshot of a 9-6 Jacks or Better hand with the cards to hold colored green.



Some games have additional cards, like Joker Poker ones:



Any hands entered through the watch are stored in the mobile device’s History section of Pro+ app for later review.

To the best of my knowledge, I think this is a first for the VP community.

Comments, thoughts, etc.?

My smart watch (Samsung Android) has enough problems with having to touch the watch face to do things as it is.

Also, if it is installed while you are wearing it while playing VP at a casino, there's the chance that it turns itself on - and, in Nevada at least, you then have to try to talk your way out of a felony. (Well, for the first offense, they can give you probation, but for the second, it's a mandatory minimum one year in prison.) That's why I uninstall any VP apps I have on my cellphone before going to Vegas.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

My smart watch (Samsung Android) has enough problems with having to touch the watch face to do things as it is.

Also, if it is installed while you are wearing it while playing VP at a casino, there's the chance that it turns itself on - and, in Nevada at least, you then have to try to talk your way out of a felony. (Well, for the first offense, they can give you probation, but for the second, it's a mandatory minimum one year in prison.) That's why I uninstall any VP apps I have on my cellphone before going to Vegas.
link to original post

I'm unfamiliar with anything that says you cant use a digital device while playing video poker? So how is it a felony? This is new to me.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: ThatDonGuy

My smart watch (Samsung Android) has enough problems with having to touch the watch face to do things as it is.

Also, if it is installed while you are wearing it while playing VP at a casino, there's the chance that it turns itself on - and, in Nevada at least, you then have to try to talk your way out of a felony. (Well, for the first offense, they can give you probation, but for the second, it's a mandatory minimum one year in prison.) That's why I uninstall any VP apps I have on my cellphone before going to Vegas.
link to original post

I'm unfamiliar with anything that says you cant use a digital device while playing video poker? So how is it a felony? This is new to me.
link to original post

Nevada Revised Statues, Section 465.075: 
"Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.
It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1. Projects the outcome of the game;
2. Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3. Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission."
A VP app falls under (4).

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: ThatDonGuy

My smart watch (Samsung Android) has enough problems with having to touch the watch face to do things as it is.

Also, if it is installed while you are wearing it while playing VP at a casino, there's the chance that it turns itself on - and, in Nevada at least, you then have to try to talk your way out of a felony. (Well, for the first offense, they can give you probation, but for the second, it's a mandatory minimum one year in prison.) That's why I uninstall any VP apps I have on my cellphone before going to Vegas.
link to original post

I'm unfamiliar with anything that says you cant use a digital device while playing video poker? So how is it a felony? This is new to me.
link to original post

Nevada Revised Statues, Section 465.075: 
"Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.
It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1. Projects the outcome of the game;
2. Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3. Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission."
A VP app falls under (4).
link to original post

This is news to me.

But strategy cards sold in the gift shop are okay?

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Quote: AlanMendelson

Quote: ThatDonGuy

My smart watch (Samsung Android) has enough problems with having to touch the watch face to do things as it is.

Also, if it is installed while you are wearing it while playing VP at a casino, there's the chance that it turns itself on - and, in Nevada at least, you then have to try to talk your way out of a felony. (Well, for the first offense, they can give you probation, but for the second, it's a mandatory minimum one year in prison.) That's why I uninstall any VP apps I have on my cellphone before going to Vegas.
link to original post

I'm unfamiliar with anything that says you cant use a digital device while playing video poker? So how is it a felony? This is new to me.
link to original post

Nevada Revised Statues, Section 465.075: 
"Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.
It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that:
1. Projects the outcome of the game;
2. Keeps track of cards played or cards prepared for play in the game;
3. Analyzes the probability of the occurrence of an event relating to the game; or
4. Analyzes the strategy for playing or betting to be used in the game,
except as may be made available as part of an approved game or otherwise permitted by the Commission."
A VP app falls under (4).
link to original post

This is news to me.

But strategy cards sold in the gift shop are okay?
link to original post

Can't create an advantage. And I don't think using an optimal play app creates an advantage either. I believe these rules are meant for card counting Blackjack and other house banked games where an advantage can be gained.


ZCore13

I called the NGC field office here in Vegas and I spoke with senior agent Derek Agnew who said there is no violation using a software program playing video poker.

However he cautioned that it might violate the rules of the casino and the NGC has no control about casino policy.

The phone number is 702-486-2020

When the first iphone came out I had an idea for a new video poker analysis app. Very simple, snap a picture of the dealt hand on the video poker machine and the program tells you the proper hold. Obviously, it would only work if the paytable was displayed on the screen. I started to develop it but at the time my image recognition skills were not up to par and there weren't many tools available for the iphone in 2007. Today it would be pretty easy because the cameras are so much better and there are many image analysis and pattern matching tools available for the iphone. Would probably only take a week to develop today.

Quote: AlanMendelson

This is news to me.

But strategy cards sold in the gift shop are okay?
link to original post

Strategy cards don't "analyze the strategy." In theory, if you had a book with all 2,598,960 hands in it, that would be allowed as well.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I called the NGC field office here in Vegas and I spoke with senior agent Derek Agnew who said there is no violation using a software program playing video poker.

However he cautioned that it might violate the rules of the casino and the NGC has no control about casino policy.

The phone number is 702-486-2020
link to original post

Now that's news to me.

Also note that this is not a gaming regulation, but a state law, so it's up to the police to enforce it.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

[
Strategy cards don't "analyze the strategy." In theory, if you had a book with all 2,598,960 hands in it, that would be allowed as well.

Quote: AlanMendelson

I called the NGC field office here in Vegas and I spoke with senior agent Derek Agnew who said there is no violation using a software program playing video poker.

However he cautioned that it might violate the rules of the casino and the NGC has no control about casino policy.

The phone number is 702-486-2020
link to original post

Now that's news to me.

Also note that this is not a gaming regulation, but a state law, so it's up to the police to enforce it.
link to original post

Things are complicated when there are multiple jurisdictions: state/NGC/ casino rules. But basically, this all boils down to the casino and whether they think that an app on an electronic device that is calculating probability of VP outcomes and recommending strategy is welcome in their casino. And because this is a commercial offering being presented by OP, I think it behooves the commercial vendor to do some research on whether they are marketing a tool for the express purpose of committing a felony.

I provided the phone number of the NGC. They answer it 24/7.

Police do not respond to violations of Gaming laws. The NGC does.

If you recall during Covid it was the NGC that closed the casinos and not the Governor.

You might say that casinos are run by a government of it's own the NGC.

There are all kinds of apps on phones for holding cards including the WOO site. They are not illegal.

I know that many of you think you're experts but ask the NGC who are the real experts.

Quote: ThatDonGuy

Nevada Revised Statues, Section 465.075: 
"Use or possession of device, software or hardware to obtain advantage at playing game prohibited.
It is unlawful for any person to use, possess with the intent to use or assist another person in using or possessing with the intent to use any computerized, electronic, electrical or mechanical device, or any software or hardware, or any combination thereof, which is designed, constructed, altered or programmed to obtain an advantage at playing any game in a licensed gaming establishment or any game that is offered by a licensee or affiliate, including, without limitation, a device that... link to original post

My reading is that as long as the device doesn't "obtain an advantage" (i.e., gives the player a player edge, instead of playing against the house edge), then everything else mentioned in the section is not illegal (e.g., "analyzing the strategy for playing or betting").

I remember when the Wizard did his slot survey on the strip twenty years ago, I cautioned him that overzealous law enforcement might consider a pencil to be "a device". I think I didn't read the statute carefully enough back then.

So you would suggest that using this device on a 9/6 Jacks or Better game (99.54% return) is not illegal, as it does not give me an advantage.

How about using it on the 9/6 JoB game on a point-multiplier day such that the theoretical return is 100+%?

How about if I use it on a full-pay 10/7 Double Bonus game (100.17% return)?

What about on a progressive jackpot machine, where the optimal play varies with the progressive(s)?

Seems like a slippery slope to me.

Dog Hand

Quote: DogHand

So you would suggest that using this device on a 9/6 Jacks or Better game (99.54% return) is not illegal, as it does not give me an advantage.

How about using it on the 9/6 JoB game on a point-multiplier day such that the theoretical return is 100+%?

How about if I use it on a full-pay 10/7 Double Bonus game (100.17% return)?

What about on a progressive jackpot machine, where the optimal play varies with the progressive(s)?

Seems like a slippery slope to me.

Dog Hand

link to original post

In none of those cases does your use increase the edge over what they are already offering.


ZCore13

Quote: Zcore13

In none of those cases does your use increase the edge over what they are already offering.

I see it differently:

"It is unlawful...to use...any software...which is designed...to obtain an advantage at playing any game...that...analyzes the strategy for playing...to be used in the game."

I see the software as helping you obtain an advantage at a game that has a player edge with proper play, by analyzing to tell you the proper play.

But, I'm not a lawyer. Even so, I suspect that even most lawyers would say that it could go either way and the deciding factor would be how the courts have already ruled on similar cases...if there are any.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: Zcore13

In none of those cases does your use increase the edge over what they are already offering.

I see it differently:

"It is unlawful...to use...any software...which is designed...to obtain an advantage at playing any game...that...analyzes the strategy for playing...to be used in the game."

I see the software as helping you obtain an advantage at a game that has a player edge with proper play, by analyzing to tell you the proper play.

But, I'm not a lawyer. Even so, I suspect that even most lawyers would say that it could go either way and the deciding factor would be how the courts have already ruled on similar cases...if there are any.
link to original post

Has anyone been told by any casino, anywhere, not to use a software program or a strategy card while playing video poker?

Anyone?

I've never heard of it happening. In Navada the NGC says they wouldn't block such use but a casino might.

If there's a REAL CASE let us know about it. Otherwise this is just forum paranoia.

Quote: AlanMendelson

Has anyone been told by any casino, anywhere, not to use a software program or a strategy card while playing video poker?

When the Wizard did his slot survey, armed with nothing more than a pencil and a clipboard, two different casinos told him to stop. When I was logging slot data myself (with a pencil and a clipboard), I got some heat from some security. Following that I notified the few casinos I was planning to go to ahead of time to make sure they understood that what I was doing wasn't related to trying to get an advantage, and one of them told me they still wouldn't allow it.

Has anyone been arrested for using strategy software before? I don't know, but even if it's never happened before, I sure wouldn't want to be the first. Overzealous security is a thing. Fremont security manhandled a player they thought stole slot credits merely because another player said she did. Sahara sued a blogger for reporting a rumor that Sahara would close, even though he clearly identified it as a rumor, and even though he had a solid source. Do I trust the casinos to not go overboard in assessing my fair use of software? Let me see....nope.

Quote: MichaelBluejay

Quote: AlanMendelson

Has anyone been told by any casino, anywhere, not to use a software program or a strategy card while playing video poker?

When the Wizard did his slot survey, armed with nothing more than a pencil and a clipboard, two different casinos told him to stop. When I was logging slot data myself (with a pencil and a clipboard), I got some heat from some security. Following that I notified the few casinos I was planning to go to ahead of time to make sure they understood that what I was doing wasn't related to trying to get an advantage, and one of them told me they still wouldn't allow it.

Has anyone been arrested for using strategy software before? I don't know, but even if it's never happened before, I sure wouldn't want to be the first. Overzealous security is a thing. Fremont security manhandled a player they thought stole slot credits merely because another player said she did. Sahara sued a blogger for reporting a rumor that Sahara would close, even though he clearly identified it as a rumor, and even though he had a solid source. Do I trust the casinos to not go overboard in assessing my fair use of software? Let me see....nope.
link to original post

The NGC cautioned that casinos can set their own rules. Did any incident go beyond the casino's own policy?

Is it the casino’s policy that they can rough up an innocent person who another player has accused of cheating? Gee, Alan, I dunno.

Back on topic, one suggestion I might make is the availability to dial up with text the hand present, rather than selecting the card from a list. For example, Ts 4c 4d Ks 9s. The app would need to translate that into the hand, but this would make the hand hold more discreet. Of course, a lot of video poker authors even recommend using strategy cards discreetly and I always have it either on my lap or, if I use the smaller cards, on the machine where the drink would be. Still, that is a universally accepted method of looking up things vs. dialing it up from a phone.

Quote: calwatch

Back on topic, one suggestion I might make is the availability to dial up with text the hand present, rather than selecting the card from a list. For example, Ts 4c 4d Ks 9s. The app would need to translate that into the hand, but this would make the hand hold more discreet. Of course, a lot of video poker authors even recommend using strategy cards discreetly and I always have it either on my lap or, if I use the smaller cards, on the machine where the drink would be. Still, that is a universally accepted method of looking up things vs. dialing it up from a phone.
link to original post

Thanks. I considered doing card input by dialing it up as you suggested. Indeed, the mobile app has 3 different options for card input, and one is exactly this (well, using a keyboard rather than dialing). For both the mobile and wear apps I also experimented with voice input but found it too unreliable.

The images shown in the original post are for the smallest watch type (small, circular). Rectangular, square and large round watches have more space. Having two rows of pips to choose from shortened the selection time but reduced the pip sizes. One option is to have only one scrollable line. The pips would be larger but would require more back and forth to get from low to high pips. Having the suits separate allows multiple pip selections for same suited cards.

I may have to revisit this as feedback comes in.

This seems pretty awesome and convenient (as opposed to holding your phone out).
How, much is the one time unlock price and when does it release?
Do you have videos of the app in action to show the flow?

Quote: Gandler

This seems pretty awesome and convenient (as opposed to holding your phone out).
How, much is the one time unlock price and when does it release?
Do you have videos of the app in action to show the flow?
link to original post

Thanks. The one-time unlock price is $10.
I didn't have a video but threw one together and will post it tomorrow once I figure out how to do that.

Quote: Gandler

Do you have videos of the app in action to show the flow?
link to original post

Here is a Watch Demonstration link to a very simple demo. It is NOT fancy, in fact, it is a very amateur effort --- wobbly camera, fuzzy images, mumbling voice, etc. But you’ll get the idea. The final watch screen was: