billryan
billryan 
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 12:48:14 PM permalink
From casino point of view, I wouldn't let anyone buy in for over X amount without proper id. If you don't have a players card, the pit will get you one. No id, no play.
I'm not sure why they have not done this. In Nevada, I'd think it would be pretty simple to get the law changed to require just that.
Banks and stock brokers are required to know their customers, why not casinos.
I'd think the tiny amount of people who would refuse to show id would actually help the casinos bottom line, and does anything else matter to them.
AxelWolf
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:05:10 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I think they can to some extent. I am being serious. I always thought the Bill Zender model was very efficient for the casinos industry. It was based on card counters back then, but could be extended to all AP play.

The model basically says you ignore all the small players. They aren't effecting anything. Most aren't playing perfect stagegies anyway, which means they may not even be playing a +EV game. And you focus on the few higher end teams and players that are well financed.

So with card counters he was saying the low limit players aren't hurting anything. They don't have the bankroll to do much, and their play isn't good enough to matter. Extending that to machine AP plays, many of the low limit players aren't playing perfect strategies for the different games....may not even be playing a +EV game. You focus on the higher end players and teams.....the Axelwolfs of the world. :)


Instead casinos spend money on gaming protection consultants that sell them how much they are losing. Then they spend money on all sorts of differt technology, databases subscriptions (monthly charge), and extra personnel to run the technology. Ends up they are spending dollars to save pennies.

If they let all the lower level AP's go totally unmolested that starts to add up to the bigger teams etc. Can you imagine what would happen if they said F it, we allow card counters as long as you keep your bets to under x amount. Part of what keeps some people from not wanting to focus on card counting is all the other cat and mouse games.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
Marcusclark66
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:11:51 PM permalink
Quote: MDawg

At table games it's just a matter of casinos deciding whether they want to lose some customers due to demanding ID. If a casino decides that it will not allow anyone to play a table game without identifying himself, it would be within their rights as a private establishment, as long as the policy is enforced universally. If they don't want to go that extreme, then something like what they have going on at Resorts World Vegas with electronic bet tracking might be used to weed out advantage players, but implementing such an electronic system at a casino would be more expensive than just switching over to demanding ID.

Now, I play only high limit tables but when I play I rarely see a player refuse to present his player card or ID to get a player card. Maybe at the smaller tables refusing to present a player card or ID is more common, but if not - then if I owned a casino I'd watch anyone who refuses closely at least for a while, until I figured out why he is refusing to identify himself. In other words - how simple is that policy, if anyone at the tables refuses to present a player card or get one, watch him closely for a while.

At the machines, it would be harder to enforce that sort of thing, forcing people to input player cards or get one, hence the need for some kind of software like this to weed out the sort of players they don't want.



You are exactly right, at the high limit tables in the high-limit rooms with all the ones I have experience with, plus at the casino chain that I work for very seldom does a high limit player refuse to give ID or has not already been issued a players card with full identification already within the casino's computer system.

Marcus Clark
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Marcus Clark. Real Person; AKA MarcusClark66. *Professional Casino Security Expert. *Certified Company Firearms Instructor. *Certified Gaming Regulations Interpreter for Corporate Applications. *Tic-Tac-Toe Expert (Real Competitive Versions) & Mastering Chess. *Honorary & Official #1 Fan of the MDawg Adventures Club. *Mastering Cracking it. Bit-by-Bit, Piece-by-Piece Crediting Forum Members. *Certified Casino Property Entry & Exit Point Analyzer *Baccarat Winning Session Record: 11 out of 11 & 1 out of 1 Mini Session. Baccarat Losing Session Record: 2 Losing Sessions.
kewlj
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:16:56 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

If they let all the lower level AP's go totally unmolested that starts to add up to the bigger teams etc. Can you imagine what would happen if they said F it, we allow card counters as long as you keep your bets to under x amount. Part of what keeps some people from not wanting to focus on card counting is all the other cat and mouse games.



I think they would be fine allowing all the card counters under certain amounts. Like I said, most of these are recreational type card counters. They don't know proper index plays. they are not properly funded so they lose a couple of their big bets and start playing scared, throwing out half on the big bet. If they lose their buy-in and maybe a second buy-in, they will walk away, even from a very positive +EV count. All these things turn that very, very slim advantage that a good card counter plays to, to no advantage or -EV play.

So they may very well be banning a player that is contributing to the casinos win. And what if that player isn't playing a losing game, but let's say barely breaking even. They may very well have a wife, or some companion playing slots, or other casino game and losing 10 times as much of any small amount this player can win. Is that good business?

And by the way, your "keep your bets under xxx" was actually one of the first countermeasures I encountered in Atlantic City. The casinos, several including Borgata would pull out a 'minimum bet $5, maximum bet $50 placard that applied only to me. This was at $25 tables, which very much confused other players. A $5-$50 spread that they were allowing should be a +EV game (1-10 spread), so they were willing to accept that. Why because such limits doesn't hurt anything.

Not only don't hurt anything, but the common knowledge that blackjack CAN be beaten has been a huge boom for the casino industry....a huge draw.
AxelWolf
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:28:24 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

I think they would be fine allowing all the card counters under certain amounts. Like I said, most of these are recreational type card counters. They don't know proper index plays. they are not properly funded so they lose a couple of their big bets and start playing scared, throwing out half on the big bet. If they lose their buy-in and maybe a second buy-in, they will walk away, even from a very positive +EV count. All these things turn that very, very slim advantage that a good card counter plays to, to no advantage or -EV play.

So they may very well be banning a player that is contributing to the casinos win. And what if that player isn't playing a losing game, but let's say barely breaking even. They may very well have a wife, or some companion playing slots, or other casino game and losing 10 times as much of any small amount this player can win. Is that good business?

And by the way, your "keep your bets under xxx" was actually one of the first countermeasures I encountered in Atlantic City. The casinos, several including Borgata would pull out a 'minimum bet $5, maximum bet $50 placard that applied only to me. This was at $25 tables, which very much confused other players. A $5-$50 spread that they were allowing should be a +EV game (1-10 spread), so they were willing to accept that. Why because such limits doesn't hurt anything.

Not only don't hurt anything, but the common knowledge that blackjack CAN be beaten has been a huge boom for the casino industry....a huge draw.

And now we are back to the same thing, them trying to figure out who is counting and who isn't when someone wants to jump their bets to a higher level. Since all games are different and there is no good answer to what that x amount is, let me ask you this, what hourly amount should they allow the cards counters to make unmolested?
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
kewlj
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:30:43 PM permalink
Quote: Marcusclark66


You are exactly right, at the high limit tables in the high-limit rooms with all the ones I have experience with, plus at the casino chain that I work for very seldom does a high limit player refuse to give ID or has not already been issued a players card with full identification already within the casino's computer system.



Outside of the high limit players, casino's own policies have contributed to players not wanting to play rated. Some time during my 12 years in vegas, probably 8-9 years ago now, MGM announced table game players playing less than $25 tables would not be rated. Everyone else followed suit. Now even at $25 tables, most players earn nothing. Check your points before and after table play. Most places you get nothing, unless you are playing $50 or more.

And that has been extended to off strip locations. Ocassionally I play rated at say a Stations casinos. I am usually at a $25 minimum table and my minimum bet often is $50, spreading to $400, so I probably have an average bet of close to $100. I never get a single point for my rated blackjack play. (I do earn points for machine play). So what incentive is there for table players to play rated?
mcallister3200
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AxelWolfdarkozMission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:35:03 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

From casino point of view, I wouldn't let anyone buy in for over X amount without proper id. If you don't have a players card, the pit will get you one. No id, no play.
I'm not sure why they have not done this. In Nevada, I'd think it would be pretty simple to get the law changed to require just that.
Banks and stock brokers are required to know their customers, why not casinos.
I'd think the tiny amount of people who would refuse to show id would actually help the casinos bottom line, and does anything else matter to them.



There is a law; itís 10k. Some have a policy of requiring earlier but, generally, it works the exact opposite of what you suggest. Theyíll let you buy in for 9k+without ID but good luck cashing anywhere from a single large denom chip or 1/3 of that amount without ID. They only care who you are when they have to pay you not to take your money.
unJon
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:38:40 PM permalink
Played at Borgata last night. If you donít have a players card you are only allowed to make table minimum bets at BJ. Told most AC casinos are adopting that rule.
The race is not always to the swift, nor the battle to the strong; but that is the way to bet.
kewlj
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:40:19 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

And now we are back to the same thing, them trying to figure out who is counting and who isn't when someone wants to jump their bets to a higher level. Since all games are different and there is no good answer to what that x amount is, let me ask you this, what hourly amount should they allow the cards counters to make unmolested?



It is more than just looking at a formula that xxx player is earning xx/hr because he is spreading x to xx.

Most of these lower limit players are not playing a winning game for a varienty of reasons that I already mentioned, non optimal play (meaning not knowing the correct index plays), under funded (the big one) which leads to all kind of negative things, like playing scared, not putting out the big bets, walking away from very +EV play.

If they just ignored ALL the low limit play and players, the majority that either playing a -EV game or break even game, they aren't losing anything. ANYTHING they spend trying to limit these players is more than the players are making as a whole. I really believe that. Focus on the higher stakes players and teams only.

And by the way, players winning a little bit, even from AP just isn't a bad thing for the casinos. That really WAS part of the model. If nobody ever wins, why should anyone want to play?
MDawg
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 1:40:55 PM permalink
Quote: unJon

Played at Borgata last night. If you donít have a players card you are only allowed to make table minimum bets at BJ. Told most AC casinos are adopting that rule.


Wow interesting, so what I mused about is actually happening.
I tell you itís wonderful to be here, man. I donít give a damn who wins or loses. Itís just wonderful to be here with you people. https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/betting-systems/33908-the-adventures-of-mdawg/

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