Dieter
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Dieter 
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 11:36:15 AM permalink
Quote: DRich



if the technology actually exists for a reasonable price, it would be pretty easy to implement properly. my thought is that the technology will be too expensive to implement today.



If you're looking for hand by hand analysis, I tend to agree.
If you're satisfied with coin in vs coin out and comparing that to machine theoretical, I would tend to think this is readily practical with 20 year old technology.
May the cards fall in your favor.
Dieter
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Dieter 
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 11:37:53 AM permalink
Quote: rxwine

In the future, APs will be 86'd by a robot which plucks a player out of the seat and tosses him in the backroom.



Trapdoors.
May the cards fall in your favor.
AxelWolf
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July 31st, 2021 at 11:42:26 AM permalink
I take it that this Is a program that gets integrated with the player's card tracking system? So, if you don't use a card then it won't be tracking you?

How difficult would it be for this program to detect perfect play in all the different variants of video poker they have or may come up with? That doesn't sound very feasible.


What advantage players are really targeting video poker nowadays? Are the casinos suddenly looking to put in a bunch of good-paying video poker? I think not.

This entire thing sounds like a silly marketing ploy. But hey, I think all the casinos should buy the Acres software program. They will automatically be safe from all video poker Advantage Players and they can commence with better perks, big promotions all without having a thing to worry about.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
billryan
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Mission146
July 31st, 2021 at 11:49:14 AM permalink
Has a video poker AP ever been removed from casino?
My limited understanding of VP APs is they depend on mailings and the like for a good bit on their income. I thought simply stopping those effectively eliminated them.
A game worth playing because of player points and mailings becomes unplayable without them.
This seems like a solution in search of a problem.
kewlj
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July 31st, 2021 at 11:53:21 AM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf


This entire thing sounds like a silly marketing ploy. But hey, I think all the casinos should buy the Acres software program.



This is just an extension, or another peg of a whole side "protection" industry that has sprung up in the last 10 years or so, consisting of consultants and products designed to convince the casino industry that advantage players are hurting them and they need this "protection" from AP's. Sort of like a mob shakedown.

End result: casinos spend many times more in protection that AP's could ever take. Spend a dollar to save a few pennies. That is what is going on. But the consultants and protection people are getting rich. :/
AxelWolf
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July 31st, 2021 at 11:54:28 AM permalink
Quote: billryan

Has a video poker AP ever been removed from casino?

Many many times.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
AxelWolf
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July 31st, 2021 at 12:00:21 PM permalink
Quote: kewlj

This is just an extension, or another peg of a whole side "protection" industry that has sprung up in the last 10 years or so, consisting of consultants and products designed to convince the casino industry that advantage players are hurting them and they need this "protection" from AP's. Sort of like a mob shakedown.

End result: casinos spend many times more in protection that AP's could ever take. Spend a dollar to save a few pennies. That is what is going on. But the consultants and protection people are getting rich. :/

I get that, but I guess they can't just ignore Advantage Players and let them run wild.
♪♪Now you swear and kick and beg us That you're not a gamblin' man Then you find you're back in Vegas With a handle in your hand♪♪ Your black cards can make you money So you hide them when you're able In the land of casinos and money You must put them on the table♪♪ You go back Jack do it again roulette wheels turinin' 'round and 'round♪♪ You go back Jack do it again♪♪
kewlj
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July 31st, 2021 at 12:02:07 PM permalink
Quote: billryan

Has a video poker AP ever been removed from casino?
My limited understanding of VP APs is they depend on mailings and the like for a good bit on their income. I thought simply stopping those effectively eliminated them.
A game worth playing because of player points and mailings becomes unplayable without them.
This seems like a solution in search of a problem.



What you are describing is what I have been doing since moving to vegas to suplement my blackjack income. It is the very low end, low hanging fruit of VP AP. It was good 10 years ago, that is why a fellow AP convinced me if I wasn't doing some of this, I was leaving money on the table. Back then casinos, especially all the off strip local's casinos were REALLY competeing for the local player, so 10k coin in could generate several months of decent mail offer free play, making the whole play fairly profitable.

Now you throw 10k coin in and you get $5 free play a week. Unless it is a Boyd property then you might get a couple multiplier days instead. lol.

So for me, playing that low hanging fruit, that supplemental play has all but dried up.
kewlj
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July 31st, 2021 at 12:11:45 PM permalink
Quote: AxelWolf

I get that, but I guess they can't just ignore Advantage Players and let them run wild.



I think they can to some extent. I am being serious. I always thought the Bill Zender model was very efficient for the casinos industry. It was based on card counters back then, but could be extended to all AP play.

The model basically says you ignore all the small players. They aren't effecting anything. Most aren't playing perfect stagegies anyway, which means they may not even be playing a +EV game. And you focus on the few higher end teams and players that are well financed.

So with card counters he was saying the low limit players aren't hurting anything. They don't have the bankroll to do much, and their play isn't good enough to matter. Extending that to machine AP plays, many of the low limit players aren't playing perfect strategies for the different games....may not even be playing a +EV game. You focus on the higher end players and teams.....the Axelwolfs of the world. :)


Instead casinos spend money on gaming protection consultants that sell them how much they are losing. Then they spend money on all sorts of differt technology, databases subscriptions (monthly charge), and extra personnel to run the technology. Ends up they are spending dollars to save pennies.
MDawg
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July 31st, 2021 at 12:31:33 PM permalink
At table games it's just a matter of casinos deciding whether they want to lose some customers due to demanding ID. If a casino decides that it will not allow anyone to play a table game without identifying himself, it would be within their rights as a private establishment, as long as the policy is enforced universally. If they don't want to go that extreme, then something like what they have going on at Resorts World Vegas with electronic bet tracking might be used to weed out advantage players, but implementing such an electronic system at a casino would be more expensive than just switching over to demanding ID.

Now, I play only high limit tables but when I play I rarely see a player refuse to present his player card or ID to get a player card. Maybe at the smaller tables refusing to present a player card or ID is more common, but if not - then if I owned a casino I'd watch anyone who refuses closely at least for a while, until I figured out why he is refusing to identify himself. In other words - how simple is that policy, if anyone at the tables refuses to present a player card or get one, watch him closely for a while.

At the machines, it would be harder to enforce that sort of thing, forcing people to input player cards or get one, hence the need for some kind of software like this to weed out the sort of players they don't want.
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