Double Up on VP

So... I noticed a 7/5 JoB game at Venetian which is normally a pass up but it offers the “Double Up” option when you win a hand. This machine has a 0.961472 payback on that JoB game so my question is...

How does that number adjust if you choose yes to the double up option which has no house edge?

And also...
I noticed someone choosing the double up function and when they won it kept asking if they wanted to double up, and then again, and again over and over until they finally chose “No”. Obviously that would lower the house edge even more but at the same time at some point if you keep choosing yes and keep winning you’ll lose at some point and then lose the entire double up bets. So how would the double up numbers change on the multiple double up selections as well and also... what would be the best strategy for that? Just choose it once then move on?

And one more thing... do you receive points if you’re playing with your player’s card on your double up bets?

Lots of questions, I know.

Thanks in advance.

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but the double ups have zero house edge and don’t affect the house edge of the main game in any way.

As far as the club card points you don’t get any extra points for doing the double ups.

Quote: PokerGrinder

Someone can correct me if I’m wrong but the double ups have zero house edge and don’t affect the house edge of the main game in any way.

Sort of, not really? It’s analogous to an odds bet in craps. Which people describe as lowering the over HE of a craps pass line bet. There are threads devoted to whether that’s a good way to think about it.

If you try to double up once, it doesn't effect your EV, but if you keep pressing your luck, it's no longer 50-50 long term. I imagine many continue to double up until they lose.

Quote: billryan

If you try to double up once, it doesn't effect your EV, but if you keep pressing your luck, it's no longer 50-50 long term. I imagine many continue to double up until they lose.

you have to go ham on the double up.

Quote: unJon

Sort of, not really? It’s analogous to an odds bet in craps. Which people describe as lowering the over HE of a craps pass line bet. There are threads devoted to whether that’s a good way to think about it.

And I always disagree. The HE is the HE.

If you play $2 demon (easy math =D)... then you bet $10 with a 4% HE. If you "double up" on any win (regardless) you have an exact 50/50 chance of winning or losing, so 0% house edge.

EV(x hands) = (NumHands*AvgBet)*(HouseEdge)

EV(double up) = AmountWagered*0 = 0... so you see how this is completely erroneous to EV and HE... it only effects variance.

Here is the math for 1 hand with NO double up... EV(1 hand) = 10*(-.04) = -$0.40
Here is the math for 1 hand, WITH a double up... EV(1 hand) + EV(double up) = -$0.40 - 0 = -$0.40

So you see how ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CHANGED according to EV and HE when you doubled up?

Quote: Romes

Here is the math for 1 hand with NO double up... EV(1 hand) = 10*(-.04) = -$0.40
Here is the math for 1 hand, WITH a double up... EV(1 hand) + EV(double up) = -$0.40 - 0 = -$0.40

So you see how ABSOLUTELY NOTHING CHANGED according to EV and HE when you doubled up?

I think I disagree. Because after the first hand if you have a winner you are wagering that win amount at 0% HE. So your total wager is double or more so you must divide by the total wager.

If you bet $1.25 on 9/6 JOB (99.54%) and got a pair of jacks you would win $1,25 which you are then wagering at 0%. So overall wouldn't the expected loss be ($1.25*.0046+$1.25*0) /2 = .002875 So a loss of .002875*2.50

Quote: DRich

I think I disagree. Because after the first hand if you have a winner you are wagering that win amount at 0% HE. So your total wager is double or more so you must divide by the total wager.

If you bet $1.25 on 9/6 JOB (99.54%) and got a pair of jacks you would win $1,25 which you are then wagering at 0%. So overall wouldn't the expected loss be ($1.25*.0046+$1.25*0) /2 = .002875 So a loss of .002875*2.50

Let me try. The Expected Value is the same. The House Edge falls.

House Edge on Craps w/Odds. Differing views, but however you look at that is kind of the way to look at this.

Quote: DRich

I think I disagree. Because after the first hand if you have a winner you are wagering that win amount at 0% HE. So your total wager is double or more so you must divide by the total wager.

If you bet $1.25 on 9/6 JOB (99.54%) and got a pair of jacks you would win $1,25 which you are then wagering at 0%. So overall wouldn't the expected loss be ($1.25*.0046+$1.25*0) /2 = .002875 So a loss of .002875*2.50

They are separate bets, so the house edge should be calculated separately. It would be like betting black on roulette and then betting the passline in craps and thinking the house edge of the first bet was reduced from 5.3% to 3.3%, because that was the average house edge for all bets.

Also, the house edge should be calculated before the bet is made. There is only a 5% chance of getting a pair of jacks, so even if you are going to calculate the average house edge for all bets, the formula you used needs to be changed a little bit.

One of my fantasies has been to find one of these machines that has a double up feature and gives full points on it. Think that would be a pretty easy way to get rich.

Quote: HotBlonde

And also...
I noticed someone choosing the double up function and when they won it kept asking if they wanted to double up, and then again, and again over and over until they finally chose “No”.

I played a Game King today and while in double up saw a HELP button that took me to a help page.

"Double up play continues until selecting NO to return to regular game play, the player loses, or when the last double up win is greater than 20,000 credits."

there were other instructions about pressing YES or NO and what happens. should be clear if one plays it.

Quote: HotBlonde

And one more thing... do you receive points if you’re playing with your player’s card on your double up bets?

when I played them this morning, no points were given for my DU play. I played 25 cent denom
won the double up round (played only 1 time)

Quote: 7craps

I played a Game King today and while in double up saw a HELP button that took me to a help page.

"Double up play continues until selecting NO to return to regular game play, the player loses, or when the last double up win is greater than 20,000 credits."

there were other instructions about pressing YES or NO and what happens. should be clear if one plays it.
when I played them this morning, no points were given for my DU play. I played 25 cent denom
won the double up round (played only 1 time)

You could win a whopping 32k credits by successfully doubling up a royal 3 times. Could you imagine? Would be one of the gutsiest things ever.