Our Borgata Experience

I have been asked to explain our Borgata video poker experience that I spoke about in another thread. Before I start, I would like to provide some background information.

My wife Judy is a former banker. In 1966 she started as a teller. In 1997, she retired as the operations officer of a sizeable international bank branch in Miami. She is used to dealing with numbers. She has a near photographic memory. She is one of those people that you can show a list of ten numbers and she can rattle them back to you an hour later. I don't know how she does it, but she does. One more thing, she still has 20/20 vision without glasses.

In the summer of 2018, my wife and I wanted to take a trip to the Northeast. I was born in Wilmington Delaware and I wanted to visit my grandfather's old home where I grew up. We contacted MLife and they told us we could stay free at the Borgata in A/C. A good friend arranged to comp our rooms at the Mohegan Sun as well.

We checked into the Borgata and went down to the casino to play. The video poker machines were a mess. The odds were not as good as we expected. At that point we were committed, so we started to play. That evening my wife noticed the machines were acting strange. Here is her description of exactly what she observed.

She was playing single line max coin quarter Game King video poker. Suppose she was dealt the following cards. 8, 8, 9, K, 4? She would hold the pair of eights. When she touched the deal button for the second time, the 9 and K were replaced. The 4 would blink like they always do, but the 4 would remain. This happened three different times. We moved machines and both of us observed the same thing on different machines. It didn't happen often enough to be noticeable by most players. My wife noticed it first then showed me. I don't know what to think about this. I only know what we saw.

We asked for the casino manager and he never showed. After we got no response from the casino manager, we checked out and went to the Mohegan Sun. My wife is willing to testify under oath what she saw that night. Use this information as you wish.

Neither of you have a phone with a video camera?

We do. As you never knew when this was going to happen, it was very hard to document. It only happened a half dozen times before we left. We had enough.

We would like to think the machines suffered from a maintenance issue. It happened on more than one machine.

You would have a 4 of diamonds and the draw card would be 4 of hearts and you all remained confused.

These kind of allegations without proof should be bannable offenses.

Quote: MaxPen

You would have a 4 of diamonds and the draw card would be 4 of hearts and you all remained confused.

These kind of allegations without proof should be bannable offenses.

That was my first guess as to what actually happened

If the staff is courteous enough, they could easily go into the game menu and call up your last hand dealt, what you held, and the final result of the hand.

Doesn’t hurt to ask, and it takes only a few seconds if they’re willing. The hard part is finding a willing manager.

Others have posted that some casinos will do this in a scenario where you were dealt four of a kind but accidentally held only three of the quad.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

We do. As you never knew when this was going to happen, it was very hard to document.

Understood, but a still photo would be helpful imo because it's important to know whether the HELD indicator showed up above the 4. Do you recall?

Quote: MaxPen

These kind of allegations without proof should be bannable offenses.

IGT is a publicly traded company. He either knows, or should know, that spreading information like this can hurt the company and their share-holders. What he is saying is not only bannable, it is possibly illegal. Based on what he has said, happening multiple times in a relatively short period, video evidence would have been possible to produce. It was his choice not to do that. He had the opportunity to help people, instead he is now hurting people. The exact same problem he has with Bob Dancer.

WTF 4's?

I am only reporting what we observed. We are both willing to take a lie detector test. This happened just as I reported it. It was NOT a different card, it was the exact same card. The HOLD icon was not displayed. We have never seen this happen in any other casino before or since.

As soon as we returned, I reported the same exact information on videopoker.com. I'm sure you can find my post. At the time, I stated I felt it was due to poor machine maintenance. I was asked about it again on this forum and I responded.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I am only reporting what we observed. If anyone wants to subpoena us, they can go for it. We are both willing to take a lie detector test. This happened just as I reported it. It was NOT a different card, it was the exact same card. The HOLD icon was not displayed.

As soon as we returned, I reported the same exact information on videopoker.com. At the time, I stated I felt it was due to poor machine maintenance. I was asked about it again on this forum and I responded.

Hard to believe people are getting suspended and banned for "insulting" you.

Quote: MaxPen

Hard to believe people are getting suspended and banned for "insulting" you.

No one that I know ever did. If someone was banned, they broke the rules. I believe I was banned for repeating statements that one or more of the Forum sponsor's didn't like. I was never actually given a reason other than repeating statements.

I doubt Single is flouting the law, as it would be pretty hard to prove that he is intentionally lying and doesn't remember things this way.

However, it's pretty pointless. Dude's talking about lie detectors and testifying under oath and stuff, but couldn't be bothered to point a camera at the machine for a few minutes. It wouldn't be "hard to document" at all, if it was happening with the frequency suggested.

Given that, this is just a story in which a person thinks they saw something and it is extremely likely they are mistaken.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

It was NOT a different card, it was the exact same card. The HOLD icon was not displayed. We have never seen this happen in any other casino before or since.

That's beyond the realm of my experience. In the theoretical event of a touchscreen or button malfunction, I presume you should have seen a HELD indicator above the 4.

Occurrence of the same phenomenon on multiple machines is incredible.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but it sounds like a discard was legitimately replaced by the other same-color card of the same rank.

Btw, I hate when that happens.

Quote: MaxPen

These kind of allegations without proof should be bannable offenses.

I disagree. We have all seen it happen. When I have seen it happen I stick in my gold key and go to the hand history, and I have been wrong every time.

either they drew a similar card (4h replacing 4d e.g.) or held a card they intended to discard (it happens sometimes) or misremembered some aspects of the draws or most likely some combination of all three.

also i should point out that based on the original post, the players reporting this bug appear to be about 75-80 years old so vision / memory could be factors.

Quote: sodawater

either they drew a similar card (4h replacing 4d e.g.) or held a card they intended to discard (it happens sometimes) or misremembered some aspects of the draws or most likely some combination of all three.

also i should point out that based on the original post, the players reporting this bug appear to be about 75-80 years old so vision / memory could be factors.

But wait. His wife can remember 10 numbers an hour later. That's like remembering someone's phone number without writing it down. 🤣🤣
With mental feats like that. How can one present a valid argument against his story?

Edit:
Don't forget she also has 20/20 vision.😂😂 That really helps when sitting an aisle or two away from the slot machine that you are witnessing these shenanigans on.

He said it happened half a dozen times before they stopped playing. If I was 100% certain that my discard was reappearing on the draw , I think it would take no more than 3 instances before I don’t play anymore.

Also why would you stop playing and drive 5 hours on a whim to Mohegan sun. Could’ve gone to any of the other AC casinos.

Quote: michael99000

He said it happened half a dozen times before they stopped playing. If I was 100% certain that my discard was reappearing on the draw , I think it would take no more than 3 instances before I don’t play anymore.

Also why would you stop playing and drive 5 hours on a whim to Mohegan sun. Could’ve gone to any of the other AC casinos.

Might be necessary to cross state lines to rid oneself of video poker demons.

Just what the hell is it with these people from Florida?

Sorry Babs, you and I are exceptions.

Quote: michael99000

He said it happened half a dozen times before they stopped playing. If I was 100% certain that my discard was reappearing on the draw , I think it would take no more than 3 instances before I don’t play anymore.

Also why would you stop playing and drive 5 hours on a whim to Mohegan sun. Could’ve gone to any of the other AC casinos.

I was thinking the same thing.

Benefit of the doubt, Single, are you saying you switched to the Resorts International in AC which is now owned by Mohegan Sun Corporation?

Or you forsook all the nearby AC casinos and drove from New Jersey to Connecticut Mohegan Sun?

Or Mohegan Sun Poconos which is perhaps only 3 hours drive?

Quote: DRich

I disagree. We have all seen it happen. When I have seen it happen I stick in my gold key and go to the hand history, and I have been wrong every time.

Perhaps I'm the one with the near photographic memory since I have never even thought I have seen it happen.

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Years ago I had a good friend that used to play Flush Attack for me. He swore up and down the same cards would come in that he threw away and some various other odd stuff what happened frequently( I can't remember everything he was claiming now) . My friend was a pretty smart guy in fairly logical for the most part and he wasn't the type of guy to make up stories. When I told him it was impossible and his ass mine was just playing tricks on him we made some type of a bet so he can prove what he was saying with an x amount of months. All he had to do had to do was call me to come look or get some kind of proof, I can't remember exactly what the deal is or how he was going to go down. So now he was very motivated to prove it. So now that he actually started to pay attention and suddenly it stopped happening.....imagine that.


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I noticed that singleconVP covered his bases by letting us know his wife has a photographic memory, therefore, she couldn't have possibly made a mistake and Confused it with another suit of the same color. And now you have two people (one with a near photographic memory) witnessing the same thing on multiple machine,s therefore, it must be true.

Since I absolutely don't believe it's true that only leads me to one conclusion and my conclusion doesn't involve a mistake being made.

Quote: Boz

Just what the hell is it with these people from Florida?

Sorry Babs, you and I are exceptions.

Boz, FACT: Find the absolutely strangest f***** up stories/ people in the United States and bet that it has to do with Florida and you'll be a billionaire.

Quote: MaxPen

Edit:
Don't forget she also has 20/20 vision.😂😂 That really helps when sitting an aisle or two away from the slot machine that you are witnessing these shenanigans on.

Oh yes, I forgot he made sure to add that before he told the story as well. Make sure you cover all your bases prior to telling a story, you know, the story you admitted that you needed time to think about because you wanted to make sure it was accurate.

You just can't make this s*** up. Well, I guess you can.

End of story. We saw what I reported more than once on more than one machine, draw your own conclusions. We did visit a few other casinos in A/C. We found A/C run down and dirty with broken glass and cracks in the sidewalks. The VP odds were nothing like we expected. There is no way would we walk around at night. I wouldn't do that in South Florida either. Perhaps we didn't stay long enough or we were overly critical?

The Mohegan Sun is one of the nicest casinos in the Country. What we like most is the way they incentivize video poker. They give you a choice of better odds with no comps or lesser odds with full comps. The machines are clearly labeled. We think all casinos should do this.

The responses so far were mostly like they were at videopoker.com. Within 15 minutes of Phil's original post, another videopoker.com member implored him to video the occurrence and offered $40, then later $100 for said video. If true, it would be very important to document. Since his wife saw it SIX times, i am sure it wouldn't take too long to replicate again if true. No one else on the forum has ever seen it happen either.

And like DRich says, I would also have had it opened up by at least the third occurrence. Annoy employees walking around until someone looks at it. That slot attendant was supposed to get the manager might have forgot or not care.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

I have been asked to explain our Borgata video poker experience that I spoke about in another thread. Before I start, I would like to provide some background information.

My wife Judy is a former banker. In 1966 she started as a teller. In 1997, she retired as the operations officer of a sizeable international bank branch in Miami. She is used to dealing with numbers. She has a near photographic memory. She is one of those people that you can show a list of ten numbers and she can rattle them back to you an hour later. I don't know how she does it, but she does. One more thing, she still has 20/20 vision without glasses.

In the summer of 2018, my wife and I wanted to take a trip to the Northeast. I was born in Wilmington Delaware and I wanted to visit my grandfather's old home where I grew up. We contacted MLife and they told us we could stay free at the Borgata in A/C. A good friend arranged to comp our rooms at the Mohegan Sun as well.

We checked into the Borgata and went down to the casino to play. The video poker machines were a mess. The odds were not as good as we expected. At that point we were committed, so we started to play. That evening my wife noticed the machines were acting strange. Here is her description of exactly what she observed.

She was playing single line max coin quarter Game King video poker. Suppose she was dealt the following cards. 8, 8, 9, K, 4? She would hold the pair of eights. When she touched the deal button for the second time, the 9 and K were replaced. The 4 would blink like they always do, but the 4 would remain. This happened three different times. We moved machines and both of us observed the same thing on different machines. It didn't happen often enough to be noticeable by most players. My wife noticed it first then showed me. I don't know what to think about this. I only know what we saw.

We asked for the casino manager and he never showed. After we got no response from the casino manager, we checked out and went to the Mohegan Sun. My wife is willing to testify under oath what she saw that night. Use this information as you wish.

I am going to look at this critically for a second in an effort to be fair as relates your account.

The first assumption I am going to make is that you are not making this story up and the events contained herein are related faithfully and as you remember them.

1.) Your wife's resume' is immaterial to the story.

2.) You would naturally be inclined to believe your wife as to what was happening as she related it. Therefore, this would create a bias that would actually cause you to be subjectively more likely to see it. This is a type of confirmation bias known as confirmatory thought.

3.) As has been mentioned, many video poker players have the perception of experiencing something similar and I most certainly have myself. It is often with something like a same color (different suit) low-value card. Inevitably, I have just shrugged it off and said, "No, it must have been the eight of hearts I tossed." I couldn't swear to it, but I think more often than not I believed it was same card, different position.

---On these instances, which are rare, it occurs to me that I am really not paying all THAT much attention to the discarded cards. Imagine a game such as Jacks or Better where one is dealt the following:

Jh-Qh-8d-4s-2c

Okay, so you hold JhQh and that is an absolute no-brainer. It is so automatic that, really, how much attention am I paying to the discarded cards ranks and values? I have two suited high cards and the rest of it is a low card rainbow, so am I really even fully processing the other three cards?

Granted, in your supporting story, you would have been making note of the discarded cards (one would assume) but why not go ahead and gather the actual evidence. Did you even write any of this down? (Not that it would prove anything)

4.) In this case, however, you were doing an experiment in the second part of the story to either confirm or refute your wife's findings. Particularly, you were looking for repeatability, which you state that you not only found, but found on multiple machines. Unfortunately, the one thing lacking here is actual evidence. I honestly do not see the point in conducting the experiment if no evidence was going to be gathered. If not video, then at least the account of a completely neutral third-party observer.

5.) It WOULD be a glitch.

There is no way that the machine would be programmed to occasionally do this intentionally because, critically speaking, it makes absolutely no sense. If you wanted to guarantee players a losing hand, then simply have the game programmed to guarantee a losing result at random, but while giving different cards. If you wanted to gaff a machine, it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to do it in a way that is observable (and for which visual evidence could be gathered) by just any random player. Why would you have a gimmick that could be so easily discovered?

AND:

6.) It WOULD have been discovered.

While I will stipulate without actually knowing that your wife is smarter than average, even then, it's not like every other video poker player is a driveling idiot. There are any number of professional players out there and casual players who are as adept at video poker as the two of you are and (based on your statements as to the degree of your play) play more video poker than you do and certainly more at the casino in question.

I guess what I am saying is that the visual acuity of yourself and your wife is not so far above pay grade that these machines, which have been there for years, would not have this flaw without it being noticed (and evidenced in a documentary way) either before or after.

7.) It is YOUR job.

If you are going to make this claim, then the onus is upon you to support it with evidence. Nobody can prove that this did not happen to you or that it does not happen at all. The only thing that can be proven is in 1,000 hands it didn't happen, in 10,000 hands it didn't happen, in any x number of hands it didn't happen. It is impossible for anything to satisfy as proof that it NEVER happened because, regardless of the number of machines and number of hands, it is impossible to strictly prove that this has never happened.

Sorry, I'm an Agnostic, so maybe this is just in my nature. Where's the beef?

Given the frequency described, it is incumbent upon you to now set about obtaining video proof that it does happen...I mention frequency because you witnessed it on multiple machines, multiple times and in relatively close proximity to each other. (Same day) With that, it should not be terribly hard for you to prove in an evidentiary way.

8.) I believe that you might believe.

I believe that you and your wife might believe that this happened. However, your anecdotal accounts, regardless of your wife's IQ score, quality of eyesight, visual acuity, career in banking, ability to bake cookies, bowel movement regularity, ability to write in calligraphy and willingness to submit to a lie detector test prove nothing.

Again, what would be easier than setting up and administering a lie detector test (which, by the way, she would presumably pass if she believes this to be true) would be to just go forth and gather the evidence necessary to prove what you are saying happened.

I will wait patiently.

Quote: tringlomane

That slot attendant was supposed to get the manager might have forgot or not care.

We called the slot attendant and showed her what was happening. The slot attendant spoke with someone on her phone, then waited with us the whole time. We were told the manager would be right over. No one ever showed. We all waited for about an hour. We left and went back to our room. We checked out the next morning. I looked it up on my calendar and it was the night of April 30th 2018. I'm sure it's on tape somewhere.

This is the one and only time we have ever witnessed anything like that on a video poker machine. Together, we have played many millions of VP hands. I believe whatever happened was related to the keyboard, not the RNG. This would be undetectable in a test of the RNG. Poor machine maintenance or whatever you wish to call this can significantly lower a player's return.

Quote: Mission146

The first assumption I am going to make is that you are not making this story up and the events contained herein are related faithfully and as you remember them.

Good luck with actually getting yourself to assume that.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

This is the one and only time I have ever seen anything like that on a video poker machine. I believe whatever happened was related to the keyboard, not the RNG. This would be undetectable to a RNG test,

That is more possible, though a bit difficult to fathom on different machines. It would essentially require the hold button to be stuck in such a way that the machine is essentially holding and unholding the card regularly or occasionally. I have played at any number of crappy machines and, in my view, this would definitely be a unique occurrence because the only similar thing I have experienced FREQUENTLY is buttons that refuse to do anything unless you really pound them. (Or, completely refuse and you have to use the screen)

I can only think of one occasion ever where the button was stuck in just that perfect position to hold an unintentional card. I might even be wrong, but I did believe that I noticed this on two occasions (unholding the card both times) on the same machine and switched machines after the second time alerting the attendant (who shut down the machine) to the problem. The first time I figured I must have just grazed the button while holding other cards, or something. After the second time, I figured that particular hold button was just stuck in a weird position.

Quote: AxelWolf

Good luck with actually getting yourself to assume that.

I'm diplomat Mission146. ;)

Quote: SingleCoinVP

We called the slot attendant and showed her what was happening. The slot attendant spoke with someone on her phone, then waited with us the whole time. We were told the manager would be right over. No one ever showed. We all waited for about an hour. We left and went back to our room. We checked out the next morning. I looked it up on my calendar and it was the night of April 30th 2018. I'm sure it's on tape somewhere.

This is the one and only time we have ever witnessed anything like that on a video poker machine. Together, we have played many millions of VP hands. I believe whatever happened was related to the keyboard, not the RNG. This would be undetectable in a test of the RNG.

And here I thought it was just an excuse you used after being schooled about your claims there wasn't any "good" video poker there. I just assumed you needed some type of excuse why that wasn't an option.

I mean, there's nothing you haven't had a poor excuse for in order to justify the way you play.

Quote: Mission146

I'm diplomat Mission146. ;)

Good night, I'm going to bed.

Quote: AxelWolf

I mean, there's nothing you haven't had a poor excuse for in order to justify the way you play.

Here is what confuses me. Why does anyone care if someone plays single coin quarters? Does it affect anyone else's returns? Anyone can see it would save money when playing 97% games. The experts say they don't play those games and I agree. Should that stop someone from playing VP all day with 50 bucks if that's all they wish to risk?

I told you how and why CS was created. It did exactly what I wanted it to. I told you it is used to increase time in front of the machine, not profit. I told you it is not a way to make a profit. I told you how I made a small profit over a two year period. I said it was pure luck and I even showed you photos to back it up. What else is there to say?

Here's what I think is at the heart of this issue. Some people want us to believe that math and skill alone predetermine what happens when you play video poker. I believe this is only partly true. You need luck besides math and skill. How much is math, how much is skill and how much is luck is up for debate. I believe luck plays a much bigger part than some people will admit.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Here is what confuses me. Why does anyone care if someone plays single coin quarters? Does it affect anyone else's returns? Anyone can see it would save money when playing 97% games. The experts say they don't play those games and I agree. Should that stop someone from playing VP all day with 50 bucks if that's all they wish to risk?

I don't have a problem with it and have already conditionally agreed that one coin has a lower expected loss (raw dollars speaking) than does five coins per hand, depending on the game.

Let's look at 8/5 Jacks or Better:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/jacks-or-better/

Optimal Strategy: 0.97298434

250-coin Royal: 0.00002489 * 250 = 0.0062225

Difference in Royal Value: -0.01369298

New Return: .97298434 - .01369298 = 0.95929136

Loss Per Hand ($1 Denomination, one coin bet) = 1 - (.95929136) = 0.04070864 (Dollars)

Loss per Hand ($1 Denomination, $5 max bet) = 5 - (5*.97298434) = 0.1350783 (Dollars)

-------Okay, so in this particular case, it appears that $4 is the bet where it crosses over such that you expect to lose more money betting $4 as opposed to making a max bet. At three coins or fewer, your expected total monetary loss is lower.

-------But, with that said, you would have a lower monetary loss per hand betting five quarters 1.25 - (1.25*.97298434) = 0.033769575 (Dollars) than you would betting a single dollar on the $1 game given the same paytable, so it would make more sense to max quarters.

-------Other caveats include maxing nickels, maxing pennies or and as I have mentioned, the second-cheapest option is playing a single penny and the cheapest option not playing at all.

--------Anyway, I don't care what you play or how you play. You could deliberately seek out the worst possible game imaginable for the crap that I give. It makes no difference to me. I think the problem some people have is talking about it being a, "Good," way to play or advocating it or whatever.

As long as your statements are restricted to playing single-coin dollars (optimally) has a lower expected loss than maxing given particular paytables, doesn't confront me at all, because that statement is true. Lower cost per hand also has a lower cost per hour assuming the same play speed.

Perhaps one caveat is that the return might change a little bit if your strategy does not account for the change in coin and you are playing five-coin strategy.

Quote:

I told you how and why CS was created. It did exactly what I wanted it to. I told you it is used to increase time in front of the machine, not profit. I told you it is not a way to make a profit. I told you how I made a small profit over a two year period. I said it was pure luck and I even showed you photos to back it up. What else is there to say?

Nothing, so I guess this won't be repeated anymore.

Quote:

Here's what I think is at the heart of this issue. Some people want us to believe that math alone predetermines what happens when you play video poker. I believe this is only partly true. You need luck besides math. How much is math and how much is luck is up for debate. I believe luck plays a much bigger part than some people will admit.

By, "Luck," I think you are just referring to variance. Sometimes you are on the right side of the bell curve, sometimes not, sometimes you are close to where you, "Should," be. I honestly cannot imagine a knowledgable gambler disputing that.

Great comments. This is exactly the response I had always hoped Bob Dancer would provide. Instead, all I got was a fight. I was especially interested in your comments about single coin dollar play vs. max coin quarter. Keep in mind that the dollar odds are normally much better than quarters at the casinos where we play. This changes things. When you get to nickle games, things really get ugly.

Thanks again.

Quote: SingleCoinVP

Great comments. This is exactly the response I had always hoped Bob Dancer would provide. Instead, all I got was a fight. I was especially interested in your comments about single coin dollar play vs. max coin quarter. Keep in mind that the dollar odds are normally much better than quarters at the casinos where we play. This changes things. When you get to nickle games, things really get ugly.

Thanks again.

Well, you're welcome. If that was all you wanted, giving that to you was easy enough.

Let's look at the dollars vs. quarters vs. whatever else again:

Quote:

Loss Per Hand ($1 Denomination, one coin bet) = 1 - (.95929136) = 0.04070864 (Dollars)

Loss per Hand ($1 Denomination, $5 max bet) = 5 - (5*.97298434) = 0.1350783 (Dollars)

-------Okay, so in this particular case, it appears that $4 is the bet where it crosses over such that you expect to lose more money betting $4 as opposed to making a max bet. At three coins or fewer, your expected total monetary loss is lower.

-------But, with that said, you would have a lower monetary loss per hand betting five quarters 1.25 - (1.25*.97298434) = 0.033769575 (Dollars) than you would betting a single dollar on the $1 game given the same paytable, so it would make more sense to max quarters.

The first thing that I take note of is the fact that you lose 0.04070864 dollars betting a single dollar on the 8/5 Jacks or Better game. Okay, let's downgrade our game to 7/5 Jacks or Better and see what we have with max betting quarters:

1.25 - (1.25 * 0.961472) = 0.04816 (Dollars)

So, I would concede that playing single-coin on a $1 8/5 Jacks or Better has a lower expected loss per hand than max betting on quarters on a 7/5 JoB machine. This assumes same play speed, etc., but is mathematically true.

But, with that said, the worst JoB game listed is 93.2% and has one of the most bizarre paytables I have ever seen. Even then, let's look at this:

.25 - (.25x) = 0.04070864

x = 0.837165

That means that a Jacks or Better game would have to have a return as bad as 83.7165% before betting a single quarter has an equal monetary expected loss per hand to betting a single dollar.

A single nickel you would have to be a game that returns below 20% before you lose four pennies per hand. Betting five nickels per hand, the return (again) would have to be worse than 83.7165% before you are losing as much money, per hand, as with betting a single dollar on the dollar game.

A single penny is impossible because you cannot lose more than you are betting. Five pennies you would have to have an expected return under 20%.

Bet nothing and you can not lose anything.

The Point

My point here is for you to make one statement and one statement only: It's my money and I can play however I want to.

And, that statement is absolutely true.

But, you have an initial series of posts that focuses on limiting monetary losses. That's all fine. In your post above, you seem to highlight the differences in expected return percentage from dollars-quarters-nickels.

What I am saying is that you have to pick one or the other to have a cogent and absolute position. Are you focusing on monetary loss or are you focusing on expected return percentage? While you can technically advocate for both, it's pretty inconsistent to do so.

Most video poker enthusiasts (as opposed to casual players) would want to look for the best possible return to player, from a percentage standpoint, at the highest denomination that they can afford. Not wanting to do this is fine, but I just don't see how you can emphasize your means of play as being based on expected loss per hand, but then just a little bit later, start talking about the difference in return percentages.

It seems like I find myself saying this in almost every debate and on almost every subject, but: Pick one.

Quote: Mission146

The first thing that I take note of is the fact that you lose 0.04070864 pennies

Don't you mean dollars instead of pennies? Just here to help....

Quote: SOOPOO

Don't you mean dollars instead of pennies? Just here to help....

Oh, right, thanks! lol