New to this forum [playing single-coin video poker]
Since our casinos started dropping their VP odds, I started dropping my bet. Our casinos are not your friend. They want you to sit on a 97% game and wait for a royal flush. If you do this you will pay 3-5 times what a royal is worth. You may be asking, Why do I play VP at all? It's something I enjoy as long as it doesn't cost me a lot of money.
I have read the forum rules. I am not into insulting people. I believe in math. I do not believe anyone can beat my casino games long term. I use computer software and I play accurately. I keep good records. I don't expect to make a long term profit. What I expect is to play a lot of VP without paying a lot.
actually, many respected pros say if the return isn't at least close to 100%, so that you can ponder if comps can take you over to positive expectation, then there is no point in playing max coins, your expected loss will simply be lower with one coin [I suppose there could be exceptions]
what happened to me though, I did hit my only royal playing 8/5 jacks or better, or similar, with one coin. You have to decide if you can take the irony of that.
There are apparently two types of gambler though. The ones who like table games like me, prefer the tension of getting the cards which builds up and is released when the hand results are revealed. There is a sort of hi-low-low-hi rush to it.
Slots players have personalities that like to zone out, according to psychologists they are not looking for that rising tension released by the end result, they are simply pushing buttons to go into some dulled state that their minds enjoy.
Your 300,000 hands/year of single-coin (assuming 25-cents) may seem to be a $2250/year entertainment cost. However, the reduced royal payout for single-coin play increases the house edge so your expected cost will be more than that. You didn't give the paytable you play, so I can't say what that increase is.
But, since you believe in math, it might be an informative exercise for you to compare your entertainment cost difference between 5- and 1-coin play. 300,000 hands/year for 5-coin play with a 3% house edge has an expected cost of $11,250/year. As long as the house edge on the single-coin paytable is less than 15% your are reducing your yearly entertainment expense.
At least in terms of what happens at the machine. If you get comps for your play, well that would be another factor. Good luck!
Since switching to single coin quarter play, my attitude has changed considerably. I no longer dread going to the casino. I enjoy video poker because of the interaction. I find regular slots boring. I play at least 3,000 hands of VP each week, occasionally much more. If I hit a $62.50 royal flush, it's just another jackpot to me. I quit counting royals years ago. So far, I have kept close to even with the casino. When you are playing as small as I do, it doesn't take much luck to make you a winner.
I like your outlook: Play good games with good strategy for entertainment.
It's supposedly what "gaming" is all about—entertainment. Even if you break even or post a small loss in the ledger, it sounds as if you have fun, which was worth it!
Contrast that to "gambling," which is all about winning. I'd hate to have the stress that comes with a must-win casino visit!
Hope you find the forum informative and entertaining!
However, playing a single dollar coin instead of 5 coin quarter is stupid. Playing a single quarter if 5 coin nickel is available is stupid.
With all due respect, it depends on the odds. On many of our local video poker games the single coin odds are better than the max coin odds at the lower denomination. A royal bonus is not a bonus if it costs you more long term.Quote: sabreOn crappy machines you'll lose less by playing 1 coin. The 2% or so house edge is offset by the reduced wagering.
However, playing a single dollar coin instead of 5 coin quarter is stupid. Playing a single quarter if 5 coin nickel is available is stupid.
It’s very rare, but I’ve seen at least a handful of Spin Poker games that offer 800-For-1 on Royal regardless of number of lines played. One type of these was set such you could play 1-5 coins per line while the other you could ONLY play one coin per line.
Anyway, if you look around for these types of value machines, sometimes you’ll find them. Unfortunately, they “Fixed,” the spin poker for nickels, dimes and quarters (and reduced paytable) at the casino I’m thinking of, but the situation I describe still exists for dollars as of roughly a month or two ago.
I have seen a few of those machines over the years. They had some single line VP games at the Gulfstream casino in Hallandale Florida that paid 800 coins for a single coin royal. They took them out a long time ago.Quote: Mission146It’s very rare, but I’ve seen at least a handful of Spin Poker games that offer 800-For-1 on Royal regardless of number of lines played. One type of these was set such you could play 1-5 coins per line while the other you could ONLY play one coin per line.
The problem with max coin play on a 97% VP game is simple to understand. If the house edge is 3%, the more you put through the machine the more money the casino makes. I have never seen comps big enough to overcome a 3% house advantage. There is a point where you are just paying double or triple for each royal.
Playing single coin VP is not for beginners. If you hit a $62.50 royal, your friends will call you an idiot. You will want to jump off the nearest bridge. I have hit multiple single coin royals in a day. Ask me how that feels. In the long term, you will do better playing 97% VP as cheap as you can stand.
If you are fortunate enough to have good games and comps, don't even think about playing single coin. Unfortunately, most of the VP games I see are crappy.
If you have some idea what the comps are, then that becomes a consideration. A few casinos don’t comp VP players regardless.
In terms of raw expected loss, of course the house edge is greater short-coining. That said, all you need do is determine the house edge using the calculator on WoO for the 800 Royal. Now, determine it for the 250 Royal. Take the house edge of the 800 Royal and multiply it by 5. If the result is greater than the 250 Royal, your actual monetary expected loss is lower on the 250 Royal.
It’s also absolutely true, assuming the proper strategy adjustments. I doubt the 250 v. 800 is going to significantly change your playing speed. You can say, “If I play $300,000 through I’ll lose this v. This,” but it doesn’t matter. What really impacts your wallet is the expected loss, how many hands per hour you’re playing, how many hours you play. How much total time you play.
Seminole comps expire quickly. This benefits regulars. Seminole bounce back free play isn't that bad. Biloxi is worse and there is a 3% Mississippi state tax on hand pays. Bonus free play days come once a month. A max coin single line quarter player that plays VP one full day a week could expect to earn around $20 a week in free play. He/she could also eat free in the coffee shop and get free hotel stays during the week.Quote: beachbumbabsFwiw, in my experience, Seminole comps are lousy. Probably due to no decent competition in the state. You can usually get a comp room for a night or two, maybe a token fp amount. That's about it.
Here's the problem. If you play 5,000 hands a day at $1.25 a hand, your coin in is at least $5,000. A 3% house edge becomes substantial. This assumes you play perfectly and your royals appear on time. Add this up over a year's time and it would buy a lot of hotel rooms and sandwiches.
Most VP players in America are playing losing games. If you are going to pay to play VP, you can choose the amount. If I was only going to the casino a few days a year, I would play max coins. It doesn't make sense for someone who plays as much as I do.
Quote: MDawgThe reason poker players are able to win against humans is due to player error, or taking advantage of different strategies where the winner's strategy ends up being superior to the loser's, skill in bluffing, skill in reading bluffs, etc. Do any of those apply in video poker? If not, there is no way to win consistently against a poker machine even if the odds are better than regular slots. I almost never touch machines, strictly for squares in my book. Boring.
There are apparently two types of gambler though. The ones who like table games like me, prefer the tension of getting the cards which builds up and is released when the hand results are revealed. There is a sort of hi-low-low-hi rush to it.
Slots players have personalities that like to zone out, according to psychologists they are not looking for that rising tension released by the end result, they are simply pushing buttons to go into some dulled state that their minds enjoy.
Welcome to the forum. This post hits a few points 100% dead on. There's a line (I don't remember exactly how it goes) in Rounders when Matt Damon tells his girl that the same people make it to the WSOP final table all the time is because it's a skill game, not because they're the luckiest players on Earth.
I'm in the former category-a solid Craps and BJ player and am keenly aware of how superior the odds are compared to the slot machines. When I walk around the casino though and see all the people banging on the buttons as fast as they can I can't help but mumble to myself "Geez, just use the lever and slow it down. Your money will last longer."
That doesn't mean accuracy is unimportant. Errors add to the house advantage. I would be surprised if most of the players I see are earning 90% of their coin in. Video poker can be great entertainment as long as you understand what you are dealing with and adjust your play accordingly.
A while back, someone calculated the return on Seminole slots at 90%. I don't know if that is factual, but I wouldn't be surprised. This makes a 97% video poker game look like a bargain.
Quote: SingleCoinVPI have gotten into some serious arguments with people over this. There are only a few ways to reduce losses when playing 97% casino games, you can stay home, you can bet less or you can play slower. No matter how skilled or clever you are, you can not overcome a 3% house advantage long term. Walking out a winner won't help unless you win big on your first trip and never go back. Using progressive betting tactics or Martingale might help you in the short term. Soon or later the negative odds will take your money.
That doesn't mean accuracy is unimportant. Errors add to the house advantage. I would be surprised if most of the players I see are earning 90% of their coin in. Video poker can be great entertainment as long as you understand what you are dealing with adjust your play accordingly.
A while back, someone calculated the return on Seminole slots at 90%. I don't know if that is factual, but I wouldn't be surprised. This makes a 97% video poker game look like a bargain.
I'd be shocked if the slots returned as well as 90%. I would expect 85% or so.
For those who do not know Florida Phil he was a well known poster from another forum. He got the boot for repeating his posts and disagreeing with AP'S.
Good luck here Phil. I am sure you will find many advantage players here.
Interesting, thanks for the heads up.Quote: vegasWelcome to the forum Florida Phil. You will find these people are very smart and know the games very well. Phil you do realize Billy Ryan posts here right?
For those who do not know Florida Phil he was a well known poster from another forum. He got the boot for repeating his posts and disagreeing with AP'S.
Good luck here Phil. I am sure you will find many advantage players here.
as for what he has posted, no claim is screwy, nor has a counter claim been.
can someone make a list of issues that some people have with AP claims?
Quote: odiousgambitthere does seem to be an element of "itching for a fight" to the way the new guy is posting, but I don't know if this is the person referenced, I am unfamiliar with him
as for what he has posted, no claim is screwy, nor has a counter claim been.
can someone make a list of issues that some people have with AP claims?
Actually let me be clear. Florida Phil (singlecoinvp) is a very nice guy. He means well but had a few issues trying to explain his message. I think Billyryan is right and will let Singlecoinvp start fresh.
There is only one casino within 200 miles of my home. Each week I drive an hour and a half each way to play there. If I want to play video poker in a casino, I must play bad games. The offers and incentives my casino offers have little financial value. My casino has no competition or incentive to offer better games. When I discuss video poker, it is from that perspective. Please keep that in mind.
I believe in video poker math. If you play net positive video poker games computer perfect with an adequate bankroll, good things may happen to you. My calculator tells me the games I play are losers, so I play them as small as possible.
I tend to post more than I should. This angers some people, especially those who don't like what I say. I spend all day on my computer working my investments, so it's an easy thing to do. I have noticed this forum limits the number of posts one person can make. I think this is a brilliant solution to the problem.
There are a great number of video poker players like me. There is no need to insult or disparage players because they can't play video poker with an advantage. You can't play positive games that you can't find. For those of you who can, I envy you. If I could, I would be sitting next to you doing what you do. Because I can't, I must play differently.
If you like NFL, please consider signing up for our WoV Picks Game, we have a lot of fun with it!
Quote: Mission146I don’t recall the amount of time, but eventually your daily post count will be unlimited.
If you like NFL, please consider signing up for our WoV Picks Game, we have a lot of fun with it!
Under old management it was progressive. Like 5 for day 1, 6 for day 2, etc. IIRC anyhow. Also IIRC within 20 days it became unlimited. This is mostly to stop bots from flooding the place.
If you sit around on your computer all day making investments (whatever that means) then you should be able to play +EV VP and other games all day long.Quote: SingleCoinVPThere are some things about me you should know. I play video poker as a hobby. I don't expect to make money playing the game, sometimes I do. I play more video poker than most people.
There is only one casino within 200 miles of my home. Each week I drive an hour and a half each way to play there. If I want to play video poker in a casino, I must play bad games. The offers and incentives my casino offers have little financial value. My casino has no competition or incentive to offer better games. When I discuss video poker, it is from that perspective. Please keep that in mind.
I believe in video poker math. If you play net positive video poker games computer perfect with an adequate bankroll, good things may happen to you. My calculator tells me the games I play are losers, so I play them as small as possible.
I tend to post more than I should. This angers some people, especially those who don't like what I say. I spend all day on my computer working my investments, so it's an easy thing to do. I have noticed this forum limits the number of posts one person can make. I think this is a brilliant solution to the problem.
There are a great number of video poker players like me. There is no need to insult or disparage players because they can't play video poker with an advantage. You can't play positive games that you can't find. For those of you who can, I envy you. If I could, I would be sitting next to you doing what you do. Because I can't, I must play differently.
That doesn’t follow. You would need to know if the +EV of “making investments” was greater than the +EV of better VP. Opportunity cost and all that.Quote: AxelWolfIf you sit around on your computer all day making investments (whatever that means) then you should be able to play +EV VP and other games all day long.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I guess you don't know what I'm talking about so we are even.Quote: unJonThat doesn’t follow. You would need to know if the +EV of “making investments” was greater than the +EV of better VP. Opportunity cost and all that.
How much you gamble should not be based on how much money you have in the bank. Successful people don't accumulate wealth by being fools. What possible good could come out of playing negative video poker games at $25 a hand? Experts tell us not to play those games. They are right. The next best thing is to play them as small as possible.Quote: AxelWolfIf you sit around on your computer all day making investments (whatever that means) then you should be able to play +EV VP and other games all day long.
If you have access to +EV games and you decide the risk is worth the investment, go for it. I don't, so I don't.
Quote: SingleCoinVP
If you have access to +EV games and you decide the risk is worth the investment, go for it. I don't, so I don't.
Like I said earlier there are lots of AP's on here. That kind of reply will not sit well on this forum. You still do not like advantage players do you.
Quote: vegasLike I said earlier there are lots of AP's on here. That kind of reply will not sit well on this forum. You still do not like advantage players do you.
I'm not sure why you keep harping on this, vegas. He plays for entertainment. So do a lot of people here.
Maybe I'm missing something.
But it seems more likely you're bringing whatever argument he had on another board in here with multiple bait-type posts. I think you should consider a blank slate towards him at least to start, and if he gets into ugly arguments, it will be because he wants to have them, not because he got baited into it.
Quote: vegasLike I said earlier there are lots of AP's on here. That kind of reply will not sit well on this forum. You still do not like advantage players do you.
He’s allowed to like or not like whoever he wants.
If I should ever post anything that doesn’t “sit well” with the APs, or any other group for that matter, please let me know. I need a good laugh
Why is that?Quote: vegasLike I said earlier there are lots of AP's on here. That kind of reply will not sit well on this forum.
Is AP an acronym for ‘bully’?
I always have a problem when someone states ‘many’ or ‘lots of’. That comes from my ex wife. To her, ‘many’ meant she knew two examples.
I’m sure there are a lot of non AP here...
So let me explain further now that I have a little more down time.Quote: SingleCoinVPHow much you gamble should not be based on how much money you have in the bank. Successful people don't accumulate wealth by being fools. What possible good could come out of playing negative video poker games at $25 a hand? Experts tell us not to play those games. They are right. The next best thing is to play them as small as possible.
If you have access to +EV games and you decide the risk is worth the investment, go for it. I don't, so I don't.
If you sit at home all day making investments on the computer (again, I dont know what that entails for you). You could also make money playing low limit VP and slots since there are lots of +EV opportunities via online casinos. Yes, one could play +EV video poker and slots and make a profit without much risk at all. At some places there is ZERO risk. There are way more opportunities if you don't mind playing slots, especially, if you like playing low limits and don't mind grinding out a profit.
There are a few hoops when it comes to cashing out since most all of them require you to send a copy of your ID and a utility bill that match. You have to read the bonus terms and conditions and do a little homework before you deposit money into an online casino, but if you are already at home on your computer all day, it's actually not that hard at all.
This stuff can be scaled/ramped up and even become very profitable. For those who don't know IIRC one of the owners/partners of this very site started out doing something very similar. It may have been better back when he stated, however, even at a fraction of what it once was, it's still fairly good.
If you are interested, you can PM me and I can help guide you a little. If you want to go it alone and figure it out yourself , here is a good place to start https://lcb.org/, look for the no deposit bonuses section to start off with.
AP's= Hearts of Gold.Quote: kubikulannWhy is that?
Is AP an acronym for ‘bully’?
I always have a problem when someone states ‘many’ or ‘lots of’. That comes from my ex wife. To her, ‘many’ meant she knew two examples.
I’m sure there are a lot of non AP here...
Now I have you at a disadvantage since I more understand what you we’re talking about, but you still have no idea what I was talking about. But since my first comment was way off base (based on an incorrect read of what you meant)I withdraw it and we can call it even.Quote: AxelWolfSo let me explain further now that I have a little more down time.
If you sit at home all day making investments on the computer (again, I dont know what that entails for you). You could also make money playing low limit VP and slots since there are lots of +EV opportunities via online casinos. Yes, one could play +EV video poker and slots and make a profit without much risk at all. At some places there is ZERO risk. There are way more opportunities if you don't mind playing slots, especially, if you like playing low limits and don't mind grinding out a profit.
There are a few hoops when it comes to cashing out since most all of them require you to send a copy of your ID and a utility bill that match. You have to read the bonus terms and conditions and do a little homework before you deposit money into an online casino, but if you are already at home on your computer all day, it's actually not that hard at all.
This stuff can be scaled/ramped up and even become very profitable. For those who don't know IIRC one of the owners/partners of this very site started out doing something very similar. It may have been better back when he stated, however, even at a fraction of what it once was, it's still fairly good.
If you are interested, you can PM me and I can help guide you a little. If you want to go it alone and figure it out yourself , here is a good place to start https://lcb.org/, look for the no deposit bonuses section to start off with.
Quote: michael99000He’s allowed to like or not like whoever he wants.
If I should ever post anything that doesn’t “sit well” with the APs, or any other group for that matter, please let me know. I need a good laugh
APs don't like when people talk skeptically about them.
APs also don't like when people talk about good AP oppurtunities.
Its safest not to mention APs at all if you are afraid of not sitting well with them.
When I say APs, I mean people who self identify as APs.
Quote: GandlerAPs don't like when people talk skeptically about them.
Can you post a list of the groups who do like when you talk skeptically about them ?
I can do that. Tell me what it’s worth to you and I’ll let you know if it’s worth my time.Quote: michael99000Can you post a list of the groups who do like when you talk skeptically about them ?
Quote: michael99000Can you post a list of the groups who do like when you talk skeptically about them ?
Scientists.
But, in this case it is more ironic, lots of posters claim to be professional APs, but will never dilulvge specific evidence, and get upset when people talk about unique oppurtunities.
They want people to beleive them without evidence. Which is fine, I could care less, but they start drama (like on this thread....) when people post things that they don't like....
The only thing I have against some people's Advantage Play strategy is the assumption that playing with an advantage somehow guarantees you will make a profit. On the other forum, we heard from players who have never hit a royal in 10 years of play. I have hit four of them in one day. Who had an advantage? Possibly none. Possibly all.
Video poker is gambling. This means there is risk involved. If you want the best chance of making a profit, play only when you have the advantage, play computer perfect and play with an adequate bankroll. Given enough time, you will do well.
Quote: ChumpChangeAt the end of the year, how do you tell the IRS you made no money from gambling despite having a few dozen jackpot wins you signed for?
By entering the total amount of your losses up to the amount of your reported wins on the appropriate line.
If you get audited you will provide proof by presenting your logbook.
Today, things are different. The new tax law will keep many players from itemizing their returns. You can't claim gambling losses unless you do. 99% of my play is so small, I will never see another W2-G and that's fine with me. I may take a $20 pot shot on a dollar machine if I am ahead. If I get a W2-G, I will be happy to pay the tax.
Jackpots are not the same as session wins. You pay tax on the session wins, not the jackpots. If you hit for $1200, but you wound up losing money for that session (it's happened to me), you owe no tax. That's the short summary, but taxes are a huge issue so I've devoted an entire article to gambling taxes. (Please, don't post follow-up questions about taxes here, because they're almost certainly answered in the article.)Quote: ChumpChangeAt the end of the year, how do you tell the IRS you made no money from gambling despite having a few dozen jackpot wins you signed for?
I have a table that lists the legal minimums for each state, along with reported returns from the casinos. It's of limited value because they tend to report slots and VP together, but in any event, FWIW, the lowest reported aggregate returns for the worst states are around 90%.Quote: beachbumbabsI'd be shocked if the slots returned as well as 90%. I would expect 85% or so.
8/5 Jacks or Better is 97.3% at full coin, 95.9% at single coin, if I did the math right.
My Average Loss Calculator shows that for 500 hours of play on an 8/5 machine at 500 rounds per hour, you're looking at an average loss of $8438 by betting max coin (25¢ x 5), vs. only $2563 for single coin (25¢ x 1). For limiting losses, and assuming you can't get the same paytable on a nickel machine, single-coin is the way to go!
Quote: AxelWolfJust play max coins at a slower rate.
That's preposterous.
Quote: AxelWolfJust play max coins at a slower rate.
The best speed is zero coins at zero hands per hour, or a free game at as many hands per hour as you want to. I understand the point you’re making, though.
Sorry, Mission, but that is not ‘’the best’’; it is just the lowest expected average loss.Quote: Mission146The best speed is zero coins at zero hands per hour, or a free game at as many hands per hour as you want to. I understand the point you’re making, though.
‘’The best’’, as always, depends on what your objective is. Obviously , most of us here who gamble (non AP) or even buy tombola tickets have other objectives than simple EV.
Fun. Variance. Comps. Expected utility. Charity. Etc etc
Add social interaction, for table games. I, for one, don’t like playing online or on machines. But chatting around a BJ table is as pleasurable as chatting around a glass of beer in a bar, and the price is analogous, except for variance.
