V.P. Beginner needs help

I am a beginner to video poker. I have never played poker before, live or machine. I started with Jacks or Better and because it is a 99.54% game I decided to go for a better paying game. I am into Full Pay Deuces Wild and I am having a problem understanding the instructions on what to hold and what to discard on the 0 deuce, KQ, KJ, & KT. Is there anyone who understands this that lives in Las Vegas and would like to give "DUMMIE 101" lessons? I printed the instructions from this site but am having a problem getting the correct combination. You can contact me at 702-521-7045. My name is Joe. Thanks

You might want to remove your phone number from your post, unless you like telemarketers.

You don't keep high cards in deuces wild, unless they make a royal flush draw. Even then, you normally don't keep suited KQ, KJ or KT with 0 deuces unless the hand has NO penalty cards. If you've never played VP before, I suggest sticking with a basic strategy, which instructs you to always discard these cards...

If you live in Las Vegas, go down to the Gambler's Book Store on 11th just off Charleston, and buy a copy of Bob Dancer's "Deuces Wild Report". He offers three strategies, of increasing difficulty, together with practice hands. You might also consider any one of a number of good software strategy programs. If you intend to concentrate on Deuces Wild, you should get the written strategy no matter what, but the software will enable you to practice many other games as well.

Two-card royals such as KQ/KJ/KT are only kept if the three cards you are discarding contain no "penalties"; this means that none of those three cards are the same suit as the two-card royal, and none of them is an Ace or 9. In the former case, those are "flush penalty cards", and in the latter case, "straight penalty cards". The rationale is that the decreased chance of making a flush/straight if you are discarding penalty cards (which would be potentially useful in making those winning hands) tips the scale in favor of discarding all five cards instead.

Now that I've explained all that, I'll tell you that for now, you should ignore penalty cards. Focus on learning the basics down cold. The other thing you need to do is find the best game conditions--this means the best slot club. Many clubs don't give you anything if you play positive expectation games; others cut your points waaaay down. Stations casinos have quite a few fullpay deuces wild games, but you earn points verrrrrrrry slowly. The best combination of fullpay deuces and decent slot club benefits is the Palms, where you get 0.25% free play (You earn $1 in free play for every $400 coin-in.) That .25 overwhelms the gain from making the proper penalty card plays.

mkl654321
Thank you for your help. That clears it up a bit more. I have all of Bob's stuff. I can go to Huntington Press here in LV and buy direct. The way he writes is a little confusing. Do you live in LV? It appears that you have a good understanding of Full Pay Deuces Wild. I did have a couple of other questions about the game. Would you be interested in communicating by e-mail? If so my e-mail address is bob3horse@yahoo.com Thanks again for the help, Joe

JLG: There is Private messaging available if you want to communicate privately with another member.

Check the cards you are dealt and hold according to the cards according to the list given below:-

Hold any four cards to a straight flush.
Hold any three cards to a royal flush.
Hold any four cards to a flush.
Hold any low pair (tens or lower).
Hold any four-card consecutive straight.
Hold any two high cards of the same suit.
Hold any three cards to a straight flush.
Hold J, Q, and K of different suites.
Hold any two high cards of different suites.
Hold J, Q or K with a Ten of the same suit.
Hold any single high card.

For more details about video poker game visit http://www.thebonuscasinos.com/video-poker/

You guys can't tell a spoofer when you see one?

Quote: JLG

mkl654321
Thank you for your help. That clears it up a bit more. I have all of Bob's stuff. I can go to Huntington Press here in LV and buy direct. The way he writes is a little confusing. Do you live in LV? It appears that you have a good understanding of Full Pay Deuces Wild. I did have a couple of other questions about the game. Would you be interested in communicating by e-mail? If so my e-mail address is bob3horse@yahoo.com Thanks again for the help, Joe

Feel free to PM me using the link available on this board.

Quote: mkl654321

Feel free to PM me using the link available on this board.

PM....PM....PM...? Oh, Personal Massage!

I would suggest getting one of the VP computer programs that tells you when you make an error. It's a great investment
(and fun to play at home) for about $ 30. I think the one I got a few years ago is WINPOKER.

I believe there are also free on-line versions of that, including at WIZARDOFODDS.com, part of the Shackleford media empire.

Hi Joe,
I am relativly new to the video poker scene myself.
I would highly recommend the training software 'Winpoker' you can buy it off the internet.
Thats exactly what I did, I started on 9/6 Jacks or Better then went to full pay Deuces.
Deuces Wild is much harder to learn than Jacks or Better.
My best advice is to try and memorise the table for Jacks or Better that the Wizard has on his other site; 'Wizard of Odds.'
He has a strategy table for Duces Wild for optimal strategy (perfect strategy.)
And also practice on Winpoker.
This should get you playing perfectly in no time.

As a very viable alternative: I'm not a beginner, but I've been a regular player for a number of years who doesn't win. I know all about the expert play stuff etc., but I've never had the patience to put in the time or effort to learn it. It turns out I need to if I want to see winning trips on a more consistent basis. I now have Winpoker myself and it is very helpful for beginners (and I now consider myself a "beginner").

However, it isn't that simple. Simply learning to play the hands mathematically correct will not get you to the promise land. If it did, then the casinos would have gone out of business long ago and they'd have stopped offerring all those super duper promotions years earlier.

You may have read here where I posted a synopsis of my first mega-training session given free by Rob Singer over the weekend. He's a vp guru who does things quite differently. He plays to goals while managing his money, and he teaches extreme discipline and to do exactly the OPPOSITE as the casinos expect players to do. In other words, if you're an advantage player and chase a promotion that sounds and is juicy at theoretically over 100%, the casino wants you in their chairs. RS ignores all that and plays to his own tune.

Bottom line is with him training me for 7 long hours Saturday, I ended up taking over $4200 in profit from the machine I played under his guidance. He teaches to make certain plays (holds) that go against the math for the purpose of having the CHANCE of hitting a big winner, but these hold opportunities are only about 5% of your total # of hands. The rest of the hands are to be played math-perfect. There are not wild plays mind you, but well thought out plays arrived at via risk analyses. Nothing extraordinary happened in this session, but I did toss a pair of 9's while holding a pair of 3's on DDBP and hit the other two 3's (no kicker) on 25c. Imagine if that were to happen on $2 or $5.

I'm sold on his method but he is a very controversial figure to say the least. Mention his name on most forums and the math people will call you every name in the book. If you want more info on how you can contact him or read more about his strategy PM me. I'll be having another shorter training session next month. It's given me a whole new outlook on the game.

Or you can go to www.vptruth.com, his website that's up for the time being (he's taking it down in the New Year).

"Mention his name on most forums and the math people will call you every name in the book." : This has not happened on this forum. There's several names that Jerry Logan has not yet been called.

There's no viable alternative to putting in the hard work:

1. To learn what the best games are, and how to identify them.
2. To learn the strategies for those games well enough to be able to consistently make the optimum plays.
3. To learn to identify the best slot clubs, promotions, etc. and how to take best advantage of them.

The above requires a methodical approach at first, but gets much easier as time goes on. It may not appeal to you; it doesn't appeal to a lot of people. Many "system" sellers will try to convince you that there is some way around the hard work. There isn't, other than simply "getting lucky". And relying on "getting lucky" may indeed work--you may hit a couple or three royals, and be way ahead. Learning the proper methods and strategies, however, gives you the exact same chance of getting lucky, but with the added benefit that you will be in better shape when lightning does strike.

For instance: if you play $1 full-pay Double Bonus (10/7), and play it optimally, when that royal does hit, you will then be slightly ahead (about $75), on average. If you play, say, 8/5 Bonus, you will still be behind even after the royal does hit, on average (about $350). If you play something lousy like 7/5 Bonus or 9/6 Double Bonus, you will be that much worse off (two times worse, or more).

Many system sellers bank on "the big win" to offset the certainty of long-term losses. However, using any strategy that plays ANY hands less than optimally will simply mean that you will be that much further behind when the big hand does hit. The seeming paradox is that going for the big hands at the expense of the smaller payouts actually increases your total loss. A good analogy would be the poker table: the player who wins the most pots is almost always the biggest loser. It isn't FREQUENCY of wins that counts; it's NET win (or loss).

Of course, the system flacks will pitch a very seductive line, telling you that rather than put in all that hard work, all you have to do is adopt their methods. It's tempting to listen to them, but doing the work is the only way to succeed (again, other than simply "getting lucky").

Having been a recent student of all the "hard work" it takes to learn how to play video poker correctly, if you're going to learn the much more sophisticated Rob Singer methodology, you'll find that it is much more detailed and therefore, complicated, than advantage play only. You first need to master 100% advantage play on the games you're going to play, then you have to master the holds that deviate from optimal play in order to give yourself the best opportunity to win "today". You also must pay attention to where you are vs. where you need to be at in your quest for certain and multiple win/loss goals as you surgically advance through the strategy.

It is interesting, challenging, and as I recently discovered, fun and very profitable. Your alternative? 100% advantage play which is, as RS says, the equivalent of sitting at a machine boring yourself to tears for hour after hour as you eventually realize you have become a slave to the casino and its promotions, a long-term loser, and have turned into an addicted gambler as well.

One other interesting point: Those who sell Advantage Play only do so for the purpose of making money from others so they may continue playing the game out of habit. RS sells you nothing and chats/trains for free, as I found out Saturday. So who's/what's your choice? Who you gonna trust? The guy selling you everything about the game, or the guy who meets and trains you on his own dime?

Quote: JerryLogan

I ended up taking over $4200 in profit from the machine I played under his guidance.

Be sure to let us know the outcomes the next three or five times you play. Especially if they do not include royals.

Quote: SanchoPanza

Be sure to let us know the outcomes the next three or five times you play. Especially if they do not include royals.

Why wait. For this one, in two sessions I would have won at least $290, and that's pretending I won/lost nothing on the session I hit that royal in. So really, I'm already 3-0.

Now let's get into the biggest criticism RS told me he's faced that doesn't hold water. I expect to win at least 85% of my sessions because that's what RS has experienced over 10 years. But this is what he hears from people who really don't know what he does or how he does it: "There will be a lot of smaller winners such as the the two above, but when a big loser comes along (~$3300 in my case because that's the bankroll needed for one single session of play that I was taught on) it'll more than wipe out all those little wins". I think I've got that right so far. I also know that a total $3300 wipeout is going to be hard to come by, simply because of the multiple 40 credit minimum cashouts that occur.

But his counter is, and no one knows this more than me esp. after Sat., that there will be more big winners that will more than make up for the few big losers experienced along the way, and some of them will be a result of his special plays, which I have no reason to doubt will happen.

I will report on my next training next month right here, and if I lose and/or lose big I'll be honest and report it. I'm not in this for anything but trying to make money playing, and if it turns out to be a loser then I'll come down just as hard as RS's critics do on the strategy. Remember, I lose some money playing every year probably because I play like a moron. I'm trying to learn something better now and a lot of that has to do with me practicing on Winpoker, which Singer told me to get and I did immediately.

Quote: JerryLogan

I will report on my next training next month right here, and if I lose and/or lose big I'll be honest and report it. I'm not in this for anything but trying to make money playing, and if it turns out to be a loser then I'll come down just as hard as RS's critics do on the strategy. Remember, I lose some money playing every year probably because I play like a moron. I'm trying to learn something better now and a lot of that has to do with me practicing on Winpoker, which Singer told me to get and I did immediately.

Thank you for your update.
It is interesting to hear from someone that wants to learn the truth in things that someone else does.

I have finished, with a friends help, in programming a software like Winpoker and also in Excel using VB, but with the ability of changing any play or plays as I choose.
It took more time to accomplish since I had to find someone with excellent programing skills and he was under my nose all the time.

Purpose was to program Singers styles of play, or anyones for that matter, with some of his "special plays" he has posted on the net.
The first few sims were flawless, then my friends computer started to have some issues.
Once that was finished, we only had a few chances to run other sims before he had to leave to a different part of the country. I am visiting Los Angeles for the week and will return home to finish the programming verification and final sims.

One change I made was to Singers play of moving to a higher denomination "earlier" to take advantage of the big hits, ie: quads or higher. That did lower the session win rate, increased the net profit but also increased the bust rate. The volatility went sky high.
His regular posted style of play, I ran 3 versions, showed a 87.32% combined win rate after 10,000 simulations.
I will post my results and updates in another thread in a few weeks upon returning home.

Question?
Is Mr Singer an easy guy to get along with learning his system?
Where does he prefer to show and teach his play?
Thank you

Question?
Is Mr Singer an easy guy to get along with learning his system?
Where does he prefer to show and teach his play?
Thank you
-----------------------------------

He is very easy to meet with, and his demeanor is nowhere near what his Internet reputation seems to be. He's a good teacher but I noticed some frustration when I wasn't paying attention, and he came right out and told me about it. But since I wasn't paying for his time I guess I deserved it.

He prefers to train etc. in Nevada casinos because he trusts the machines there to be fair. But since I live in the same city as he does he met with me at a local Indian casino, which is where we're meeting next month also.

Quote: JerryLogan

Question?
Is Mr Singer an easy guy to get along with learning his system?
Where does he prefer to show and teach his play?
Thank you
-----------------------------------

He is very easy to meet with, and his demeanor is nowhere near what his Internet reputation seems to be. He's a good teacher but I noticed some frustration when I wasn't paying attention, and he came right out and told me about it. But since I wasn't paying for his time I guess I deserved it.

He prefers to train etc. in Nevada casinos because he trusts the machines there to be fair. But since I live in the same city as he does he met with me at a local Indian casino, which is where we're meeting next month also.

Does Singer have more "special plays" than have been published on the net?
That would be valuable in attempting to accurately program his playing strategies into a computer for simulations.
Has Singer himself programmed any software that accurately depicts his special plays?

Why does he not charge you for his time in teaching his system of VP play? Does he also play at the same time you are playing?
Thanks

Quote: nope27

Thank you for your update.
It is interesting to hear from someone that wants to learn the truth in things that someone else does.

I have finished, with a friends help, in programming a software like Winpoker and also in Excel using VB, but with the ability of changing any play or plays as I choose.
It took more time to accomplish since I had to find someone with excellent programing skills and he was under my nose all the time.

Purpose was to program Singers styles of play, or anyones for that matter, with some of his "special plays" he has posted on the net.
The first few sims were flawless, then my friends computer started to have some issues.
Once that was finished, we only had a few chances to run other sims before he had to leave to a different part of the country. I am visiting Los Angeles for the week and will return home to finish the programming verification and final sims.

One change I made was to Singers play of moving to a higher denomination "earlier" to take advantage of the big hits, ie: quads or higher. That did lower the session win rate, increased the net profit but also increased the bust rate. The volatility went sky high.
His regular posted style of play, I ran 3 versions, showed a 87.32% combined win rate after 10,000 simulations.
I will post my results and updates in another thread in a few weeks upon returning home.

Question?
Is Mr Singer an easy guy to get along with learning his system?
Where does he prefer to show and teach his play?
Thank you

Interesting stuff, I've been following this sort of thinking myself. I'm not surprised by 87% session win rate (it's a little higher than I expect, but not by much).

I would suggest you email Rob Singer, and delve into his vptruth.com website. He's very approachable, and he will give you an answer. It may not be the most clear answer for some of the specifics, but you'd probably get what you need in terms of the approach. The why may be less clear.

I'll be interested to see what you get for an average win/loss in $'s.

Quote: nope27

Does Singer have more "special plays" than have been published on the net?
That would be valuable in attempting to accurately program his playing strategies into a computer for simulations.
Has Singer himself programmed any software that accurately depicts his special plays?

Why does he not charge you for his time in teaching his system of VP play? Does he also play at the same time you are playing?
Thanks

1. He said there are a few more plays that are not on his videos, but he compared them to small penalty card situations that Bob Dancer uses and other math people do not. (I hope that makes sense because I don't understand it).

2. I don't know if he's programmed anything but I suspect he hasn't, because it took 10 years for him to release them the way he did.

3. I tred to pay him for his time and give him something from my royal, but he refused. He said while others charge up to $250/hour, he has never charged helping other players and he will never do so going forward, because as he puts it, it's the difference between a winning player with a name and a losing player with a name.

4. Singer did not play, he only concentrated on each hand I was dealt and the right way to play it along with playing his strategy correctly. He said he does not ever play at Indian casinos because he does not trust them to be fair. I happen to trust them myself, but to each their own.

Quote: thecesspit

Interesting stuff, I've been following this sort of thinking myself. I'm not surprised by 87% session win rate (it's a little higher than I expect, but not by much).
I would suggest you email Rob Singer, and delve into his vptruth.com website. He's very approachable, and he will give you an answer. It may not be the most clear answer for some of the specifics, but you'd probably get what you need in terms of the approach. The why may be less clear.

Thank you for the suggestion.
I do not live in America and would have to go out of my way to meet Mr. Singer unless we made arrangements to be in Las Vegas or Tunica at the same time.

Quote: thecesspit

I'll be interested to see what you get for an average win/loss in $'s.

Yes, It is exactly that average win/loss that I need to verify.
I only have my traveling laptop with me and it can not handle the simulations that are needed for results and verification.

But, all I can say for right now is my friend and I both had our eyes almost "pop out" (as you Americans say) after we saw the first results of the first few simulations.
From his website Mr. Singer claims to have played "Total Professional Sessions: 427"
I do not understand what a Professional Session is, but only 427 sessions and he has a net profit to show. That, to me, should not be that difficult to accomplish with his large bankroll and reasonable winning session goals. That is why I convinced myself to program a VP simulator with his actual play and see what happens after 1,000 to 10,000 sessions.
I want to be 100% certain that I have all of Mr Singers special plays entered correctly as it took much time to program his different styles of play, with choice of games and denomination changes after a certain amount of credits have been lost.

When my simulation results validate, then and only then will I post actual results.
I was thinking about sharing my programming, but since most of the best and hardest work was done by my friend, he would have to agree on sharing the code.

Quote: nope27

Thank you for the suggestion.
I do not live in America and would have to go out of my way to meet Mr. Singer unless we made arrangements to be in Las Vegas or Tunica at the same time.

Yes, It is exactly that average win/loss that I need to verify.
I only have my traveling laptop with me and it can not handle the simulations that are needed for results and verification.

I'm not in the US either, have no plans to meet Mr Singer in person, but he has chatted to me via email. As I say, he's very approachable to talk to. Does not like Bob Dancer at all.

Quote:

But, all I can say for right now is my friend and I both had our eyes almost "pop out" (as you Americans say) after we saw the first results of the first few simulations.

When my simulation results validate, then and only then will I post actual results.
I was thinking about sharing my programming, but since most of the best and hardest work was done by my friend, he would have to agree on sharing the code.

If your friend would be amenable to sharing the code, I'd be very happy. If not, no worries.