Help analyzing this paytable? DSTP Joker Poker JoB

Howdy everyone, long time lurker, finally got around to signing up.

Stumbled across a video poker machine with a game I've never seen before:
Joker Poker that pays for jacks or better.

This is on a double super times pay machine (25 cent denom, 7 coins)

The paytable is as follows at 7 coins:
Royal natural 4000
5OaK 1000
Royal w/ joker 500
Straight Flush 250
4OaK 75
FH 35
Flush 25
Straight 15
3OaK 10
2 Pair 5
Jack or better 5

I cant find jacks or better joker poker in any of the available calculators online, I'm guessing because of the crap payout for 4 of a kind the game is only in the 97-98% range but I cant figure out how to calculate it :( Nonetheless it's definitely a fun game.

Any tips on how to analyze this? Thanks

Quote: royal

Howdy everyone, long time lurker, finally got around to signing up.

Stumbled across a video poker machine with a game I've never seen before:
Joker Poker that pays for jacks or better.

This is on a double super times pay machine (25 cent denom, 7 coins)

The paytable is as follows at 7 coins:
Royal natural 4000
5OaK 1000
Royal w/ joker 500
4OaK 75
FH 35
Flush 25
Straight 15
3OaK 10
2 Pair 5
Jack or better 5

I cant find jacks or better joker poker in any of the available calculators online, I'm guessing because of the crap payout for 4 of a kind the game is only in the 97-98% range but I cant figure out how to calculate it :( Nonetheless it's definitely a fun game.

Any tips on how to analyze this? Thanks

You definitely guess wrong when it comes to the overall return of the game. The 4OaK is the only area that hurts, otherwise that would be a decent Joker Poker (Kings) paytable. 96.3848% return using this:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/analyzer/

As it stands above.

Now, I don't know how to get you the exact answer that you want, but what I do have some idea how to do is get close by making an extrapolation. According to the calculator for the Kings or Better game, the probability of getting Kings or Better is 0.140901, which is also the return that comes from that result. I would say that we could take this to mean, without making any other strategy changes than you almost always hold a pair of jacks or queens, that you double the frequency of Kings or Better and that is your approximate frequency of Jacks or Better. That would increase the return of the game by about 14% to over 110%.

Again, there would be some strategy changes (a few obvious) and a few other assumptions we could make. Straight Flushes and Flushes now become less likely because we are holding JJ or QQ over a four-flush or various straight flush draws. Royals become less likely (and wild royals) because we now hold JJ or QQ over certain draws of that type. 3OaK, 4OaK and 5OaK all become more likely because we are (naturally) holding more pairs.

If it sounds too good to be true...I'm not going to ask where this is at (PM me if you like) but are you sure it is a Class III machine and not a Class II?

What does the Straight Flush pay?

By the way, as the Wiz points out on
https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/tables/double-super-times-pay/
the strategy is the same as the conventional video poker.

Assuming the multipliers and probabilities are the same as the usual DSTP game, the EV is 1.004126984 × b + 0.000921844 where b is the base game EV.

Assuming a SF pays 250, the base game (Joker poker Jacks) EV is 1.0492. Seems too good to be true (again, assuming the probs and multipliers are the same as the normal DSTP game.)

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Assuming a SF pays 250, the base game (Joker poker Jacks) EV is 1.0492. Seems too good to be true (again, assuming the probs and multipliers are the same as the normal DSTP game.)

Why is it not higher? Shouldn't the Kings/Aces probability just be doubled as a quick answer to account for the Jacks and Queens? It seems like it wouldn't affect what happens after the draws much, just the holding frequencies.

Prob jacks or better in a Jacks or Better Joker game is 0.224515 and in a Kings or better game the prob Kings or better is 0.141348, so not quite doubled - more like 1.6 times.

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Prob jacks or better in a Jacks or Better Joker game is 0.224515 and in a Kings or better game the prob Kings or better is 0.141348, so not quite doubled - more like 1.6 times.

Thank you very much! Can you or anyone offer a guess as to why that might be? I'm coming up blank. I would say lots of 2P and Trips that you would be getting anyway, but that's also true of holding KK and AA. Could it maybe have a lot to do with the joker as well as a J/Q and another suited Royal card...especially with the downgraded return on 4OaK? Is it because more two card Royals with high cards get held? One would think that would increase frequency of all high pairs.

I always like to start with the intuitive and I'm just not figuring it. Any ideas?

Oops, the 0.141348 should have been 0.140901. Copied the wrong number. These probs might help:
Jacks Kings
RSF 0.000026 0.000025
5K 0.000093 0.000093
WRSF 0.000108 0.000105
SF 0.000604 0.000597
4K 0.008465 0.008499
FH 0.015584 0.015618
FL 0.015764 0.015893
STR 0.017907 0.016894
3K 0.13244 0.133207
2P 0.110637 0.110621
JB/KB 0.224515 0.140901

Surprising number of replies so quickly, thanks everyone! The straight flush in indeed worth 250 coins, I edited my original post to reflect that.



It is a class III machine. I think I can figure out how to get a good approximation of the value on this game by looking at the frequencies on some other games as some of you have suggested, sounds like a very consuming process but I will work on it when I have some time. I also have no clue on how to figure out the multiplier frequency.

I'm not going to drop the location just yet (sorry). If the game is indeed in the 110% range that would be awesome, but I doubt i'm that lucky haha.
I can't upload a photo for proof since I don't yet have 20 posts but here it is:

i67.tinypic*com/10gi9go.png

Quote: Mission146

Thank you very much! Can you or anyone offer a guess as to why that might be? I'm coming up blank. I would say lots of 2P and Trips that you would be getting anyway, but that's also true of holding KK and AA. Could it maybe have a lot to do with the joker as well as a J/Q and another suited Royal card...especially with the downgraded return on 4OaK? Is it because more two card Royals with high cards get held? One would think that would increase frequency of all high pairs.

I always like to start with the intuitive and I'm just not figuring it. Any ideas?

I think the probability of JoB is not quite doubled because you will be throwing away some of the jacks/queens when you hold for bigger hands.
I.e. Jh-8c-9c-Tc-Jc

Since the combinations of kings or better are made up of 9 out of the 53 card, (4xK, 4xA and 1 Jok) adding in queens and jacks makes that 17/53 cards it's not quite double. I dont even have the slightest idea on where to begin calculating that part but maybe that has something to do with it?

Can you play 5 coins without the STP and get the 4000 credit royal?

Quote: Mission146

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Prob jacks or better in a Jacks or Better Joker game is 0.224515 and in a Kings or better game the prob Kings or better is 0.141348, so not quite doubled - more like 1.6 times.

Thank you very much! Can you or anyone offer a guess as to why that might be? I'm coming up blank. I would say lots of 2P and Trips that you would be getting anyway, but that's also true of holding KK and AA. Could it maybe have a lot to do with the joker as well as a J/Q and another suited Royal card...especially with the downgraded return on 4OaK? Is it because more two card Royals with high cards get held? One would think that would increase frequency of all high pairs.

I always like to start with the intuitive and I'm just not figuring it. Any ideas?

The biggest effect is ending up with a hand like 5-9-J-K-wild -- the pair of jacks doesn't register as a paying hand, while the pair of kings does

Quote: TomG

The biggest effect is ending up with a hand like 5-9-J-K-wild -- the pair of jacks doesn't register as a paying hand, while the pair of kings does

That's so obvious I am embarrassed right now! Thanks for the answer, though, my mind has been drifting while doing other stuff trying to figure this out!

96.87% return per VP.com app

Quote: Mission146

That's so obvious I am embarrassed right now! Thanks for the answer, though, my mind has been drifting while doing other stuff trying to figure this out!

Haha i overlooked that too. Duhhh

Quote: CrystalMath

Can you play 5 coins without the STP and get the 4000 credit royal?

No

Quote: rsactuary

96.87% return per app

I think thats Kings or better you're looking at, right?

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Assuming a SF pays 250, the base game (Joker poker Jacks) EV is 1.0492. Seems too good to be true (again, assuming the probs and multipliers are the same as the normal DSTP game.)

Do you have a link to a calculator that does joker poker jacks? I couldn't find one.

Thanks

GaryJKoehler gave the correct return for the 5 coin game. It is 1.049158.

Because they force you to play the STP portion for 2 coins, I'm sure those multipliers are weighted such that your overall return is less than 100%.

I have no idea the average multiplier, but if it were 1.28, then you have about a 96% game.

I don't know of a commercial calculator to do this. I do casino math for a living and I've developed my own tools.

If you have Video Poker for Winners, load up a game like JOB or BP. Click "Options" then "Change Paytable". There, you can mess around with the paytable and even add new hands (like specific full houses, EG: A-A-A-K-K can pay more, for instance), but you have to customize each hand and payout. To do that, you have to click "Edit Categories". If you go to a Joker Poker game, you'll notice the "Edit Categories" button is greyed out. After reading the tooltips or whatever it's called, you can see you're unable to create "new" hands in games that have wild cards. So VPW isn't going to help you in this case.


IMO -- based on what them other smart fellers are saying, it's a nice advantage that you can play straight through. I'd go play it, and take a mental note of which hands show up somewhat frequently that I'm not sure about. Many hands are going to probably be pretty obvious just using logic. Anyway, for the hands you're not sure about, I'd go home and do the math on them to figure out what the proper hold is. Oftentimes, you can do this while you're playing. It's easy to do when you're dealt a 5-card hold vs 4-card hold. Just add up all the possible results (48 cards worth) and divide by 48. If that number is above holding everything, then do the 4-card hold, otherwise do the 5-card hold. 3 card holds are a bit more tricky and can't really be done in your head unless you can do quickmafs.

Although one thing I'm not sure about is what would you do if you're dealt a joker and nothing obvious to hold. Do you still revert back to the Joker-7 hold? You now have an extra jack and queen that if you get them, will pay you money back (duh). According to hand analyzer on WOO, for FPJP, when dealt Joker, 2c, 4h, 8d, Ts, holding Joker,8 has a return of 1.475775 bets while Joker only is 1.428420 bets. The difference is 0.047355 bets or 3.2% from optimal. That'd lead me to believe that you should just hold the Joker by itself (in this JOB variant), but I really don't know.


Also -- is this game in the USA or in some foreign land? IIRC, Wizard said he found a game like this in Europe, although I think he said it was deuces wild JOB and not joker JOB. He said after a short while, it was rather evident the game was gaffed and not playing fairly. I would definitely pay attention to that.


Edit -- I didn't see this before. But if you can't bet 5 coins then to me it sounds like the DSTP part isn't going to play like it normally 'should'. Can you check the paytable/help menu and see what it says in there?

Quote: royal

Do you have a link to a calculator that does joker poker jacks? I couldn't find one.

At the risk of violating some forum rule, the PlayPerfect Pro+ Android and IOS app has such a calculator.

Quote: royal

I think thats Kings or better you're looking at, right?


Do you have a link to a calculator that does joker poker jacks? I couldn't find one.

Thanks

The App shows Joker Poker single line Five Star Poker game with Double Super Times Pay. The option listed for 96.87% is 400/200/100/50/15/7/5/3/2/1/1. It doesn't define each level, but since it seems to match the paytable I"m guessing it's Jacks or Better.

I also have Gary's app, and I'll try and run it through that.

If it seems too good to be true, it probably is...even if not for the reason you think. (My mind immediately went to Class II game)

Quote: rsactuary

The App shows Joker Poker single line Five Star Poker game with Double Super Times Pay. The option listed for 96.87% is 400/200/100/50/15/7/5/3/2/1/1. It doesn't define each level, but since it seems to match the paytable I"m guessing it's Jacks or Better.

I also have Gary's app, and I'll try and run it through that.

That is the standard paytable for Kings or better joker poker. Notice the 100 for 4oak vs. the 75 on the game we are discussing. That's also about the same ev as Kings of better without dstp. Fairly certain you're looking at a Kings or better game there, not jacks.

I'm going to go check this out again this weekend, I'll read through the help menu carefully, look at the paytables of other games on the same box, and compare to the machines around it. I'm also going to play 1000 hands and note the number of times each multiplier comes up. I realize that's a small sample size but I think it will at least give me an idea of whether it has the standard dstp average multiplier or if this is a borked version of the game. (Unless if I lose more than a few hundred $ within the first hour, then I'll probably give up )

Also to answer @RS question this is in a Indian casino, so It's basically a foreign land within the USA lol

Quote: royal

That is the standard paytable for Kings or better joker poker. Notice the 100 for 4oak vs. the 75 on the game we are discussing. That's also about the same ev as Kings of better without dstp. Fairly certain you're looking at a Kings or better game there, not jacks.

I'm going to go check this out again this weekend, I'll read through the help menu carefully, look at the paytables of other games on the same box, and compare to the machines around it. I'm also going to play 1000 hands and note the number of times each multiplier comes up. I realize that's a small sample size but I think it will at least give me an idea of whether it has the standard dstp average multiplier or if this is a borked version of the game. (Unless if I lose more than a few hundred $ within the first hour, then I'll probably give up )

Also to answer @RS question this is in a Indian casino, so It's basically a foreign land within the USA lol

It forces you to max bet to get the 4000 royal? Very strange because STP/DSTP has always let you bet 5 for the 4000 royal and not have the multipliers.

Also when you go back, you might want to read the help screen as that usually discusses the multiplier frequency and average multiplier.

I wonder if this was a big oversight.

Quote: tringlomane

It forces you to max bet to get the 4000 royal? Very strange because STP/DSTP has always let you bet 5 for the 4000 royal and not have the multipliers.

Also when you go back, you might want to read the help screen as that usually discusses the multiplier frequency and average multiplier.

I wonder if this was a big oversight.

It seems like this one is offering a better base paytable and lower multipliers, which are a forced bet. It would be interesting to get the help screen info.

Quote: CrystalMath

It seems like this one is offering a better base paytable and lower multipliers, which are a forced bet. It would be interesting to get the help screen info.

Yeah that's what I would recommend checking first. I would be surprised they designed a DSTP game this way though. People playing the game want the multipliers! Not a more liberal base paytable.