Online VP

There is a online video poker game that SHOULD have a significant (high double or low triple digit) player edge that I have trialed in demo play for about 2000 hands, and
I was wondering if the game is dealing the cards 'fairly' (since I am behind about 50 units after 2000 hands)?

Also what would be the EV of this game (with and without the special bonus if possible)?

The game is a type of JoB with one joker and a bonus for having 'special card(s)' in the hand

1 coin paytable below:

5oK - 500
RF - 100
SF- 50
4oK- 25
Full H -15
Flush - 10
Str8 - 5
3oK - 3
2 Pair - 2
JoB - 1


Also the bonus for having x special cards in a winning hand is 2 to the power of x (where x is the number of special cards) see example below

The special card can be between 2 -10 (I always pick 10 as the special, since it can be part of a straight flush and royal flush) and the joker is also considered special, so you can be paid up to 16,000 coins (32 x 500) for a 5oK in 10's (if that is your special number).

example (10 is the special): on the deal you get J J 5 8 10, you would normally keep the J's and discard everything else, but in this case you would keep the J's and 10, as your hand will pay at least 2 coins with the special card.

Please note: if this game didn't have a special number bonus, it would still easily have at least a double digit player edge (if dealt fairly)

Lastly, this is NOT a Wazdan casino, so i thought there may still be a minute chance that this game is fairly dealt, based on the pay-table

thanks in advance

Quote: ksdjdj

Please note: if this game didn't have a special number bonus, it would still easily have at least a double digit player edge (if dealt fairly)

Ignoring the special card feature and assuming a Wild Royal pays the same as a Straight Flush and that what you call Str8 was a typo for Str, I get an EV of 1.643. Even if the high pair payout was for Kings or Better the EV is 1.5620% or Aces, 1.5145%. In short, something isn't right or you are extremely unlucky.

By the way, the Wild Royal would pay at least 100 (making all the EVs even higher) since it would have a Joker, but I ignored any of the special pays above.

What is the name of this game?

I've seen games like this before where you have to bet to get cards, and then you must wager again to draw cards. Can you confirm the betting is like "normal" JoB that we're all used to? 5 coin play, pay only once then play the deal and draw?

Quote: Romes

I've seen games like this before where you have to bet to get cards, and then you must wager again to draw cards. Can you confirm the betting is like "normal" JoB that we're all used to? 5 coin play, pay only once then play the deal and draw?

It seems to be a 'regular vp' game, one bet for one deal and draw (no extra bets for extra cards).

you can bet 5 coins and it will just multiply the table payouts i gave by 5,
for example : 5oK becomes 2500, RF - 500 and so on ...

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Ignoring the special card feature and assuming a Wild Royal pays the same as a Straight Flush and that what you call Str8 was a typo for Str, I get an EV of 1.643. Even if the high pair payout was for Kings or Better the EV is 1.5620% or Aces, 1.5145%. In short, something isn't right or you are extremely unlucky.

By the way, the Wild Royal would pay at least 100 (making all the EVs even higher) since it would have a Joker, but I ignored any of the special pays above.

What is the name of this game?

Thanks, that was very close to what I got using VP strategy calculators on WoO and beating bonuses websites

I am sorry I won't give away the name of the game yet, just because there is still a 1/50,000 (or lower) chance that I was just unlucky, using 56% player edge.

I will let you know the name if I am not in front by the end of the next 2000 hands.

Update:

Just played a quick 400 hands and I lost 91 coins betting 1 coin a game.

Here is some other data that you may need to work out if the game may be 'a bit off' distribution wise (after playing 400 games)

Joker hit on deal: 8
Joker hit on draw: 3
Straights: 0
Flush: 0
3ok in 10;s: 0

Will probably give you the name of the game in the next post, since it looks quite unlikely to be a fairly dealt game

note: after a combined total of 2400 hands, I am down about 141 coins in demo play

edit (6:51am USA EST):

I think the chance of not getting at least one str, fl or 3Ok in 10's is between about 1 in 714,725,420 and 1 in 1,004,644,406 for 400 games (correct me if I am wrong) , for comparison the big USA lotteries have about a 1 in 300 million chance of their jackpots being won per ticket

The name of the game is Double Poker

below is a copy of the game help file (i can't find an RTP figure, but maybe you can?)

Game Rules

Double Poker is played with a 53-card deck including the Joker. The Joker is a wild card and substitutes for any other denomination and suit to complete a winning hand. When you click on the Deal button, five cards are dealt to you and you can hold as many cards as you want to build the strongest hand. The cards you do not hold will be discarded and replaced with new ones from the same deck after you click on the Draw button.

Additionally, you can select one number between 2 and 10 as your magic number. For each card in a winning hand with the same value as your magic number, your win is doubled. The winning hand is defined as all 5 cards in the hand, not just the ones that form the winning combination (e.g. if your magic number is 2 and the winning hand is JJ252, your win will be multiplied by 4; if your magic number is 3 and the winning hand is QQ345, your win will still be doubled even though the 3 card is not part of the winning combination, which is a pair of Qs, in this case). The Joker can also substitute for a magic number card.

You can also play using the Bet Max, or the Autoplay buttons. When you use the Bet Max button, you override your current selection of coins (and Bet), and you play with the maximum number of coins (and the maximum Bet) available in the game. When you use the Autoplay button, you let the computer deal, hold cards, and draw automatically, using the Coin size, and number of Coins you have chosen. You can stop the Autoplay mode any time by pressing the Stop button. After every win, you can choose to Collect or Double the amount.

You can also choose to play this game with numbers or torpedoes, where the poker deck suits are replaced by four different colors. All other features are exactly the same as in the game with poker cards.

How to Play

Select your Coin size by clicking on the – and + symbols in the Coin size box.
Choose how many Coins you want to play by clicking on the – and + symbols next to the Coins display box or the Bet One button. Every time you click on the Bet One button, your coin number will be raised by one coin. Once you have reached the maximum number of coins allowed in the game, clicking on the Bet One button again will set your bet back to the minimum.
Choose your magic number by clicking on the - and + symbols under the number displayed in the Magic Number box.
Click on the Deal button to start playing. 5 cards will be dealt to you. The cards with the highest potential to complete a winning combination will be automatically marked as HELD. You can choose to keep them, or unmark them and mark different ones by clicking directly on each one of the cards in the game window.
When you have made your choice of cards to hold, click on the Draw button to have your unmarked cards taken away and replaced with new cards.
If you win, the amount you earned will be displayed in the Win box. You can choose to Collect or Double that amount.
To play again with the same Coin size and number of coins as in the previous round, click on the Deal button, or change your bet values following the steps in this section from the beginning.

Winning Hands
Five of a Kind Any four cards of the same denomination plus a Joker
Royal Flush Ace, King, Queen, Jack, and 10 of the same suit. This combination can be completed with the Joker.
Straight Flush Any five cards of the same suit in consecutive numerical order. This combination can be completed with the Joker.
Four of a Kind Four cards of the same denomination. This combination can be completed with the Joker.
Full House Any three cards of the same denomination and a pair of a different denomination. This combination can be completed with the Joker.
Flush Any five non-consecutive cards of the same suit. This combination can be completed with the Joker.
Straight Any five consecutive cards of mixed suits. This combination can be completed with the Joker.
Three of a Kind Three cards of the same denomination. This combination can be completed with the Joker.
Two Pair Any two cards of the same denomination, plus any other two cards of the same denomination. This combination can be completed with the Joker.
Jacks or Better A pair of Jacks, or of any higher denomination (Queens, Kings, Aces). This combination can be completed with the Joker.


Payout

Your wins will be paid as per the following table:

Hand Payout
Five of a Kind 500 x Bet
Royal Flush 100 x Bet
Straight Flush 50 x Bet
Four of a Kind 25 x Bet
Full House 15 x Bet
Flush 10 x Bet
Straight 5 x Bet
Three of a Kind 3 x Bet
Two Pairs 2 x Bet
Jacks or Better 1 x Bet

Double Up Hi Lo Feature

If the Double Up Hi Lo Feature is available, the following rules apply: The Double Up Hi Lo feature is activated by clicking on the Double button after a win. It is played with a standard 52- card poker deck. Before the game starts, the deck is shuffled. You will have to guess if the face down card shown is higher or lower than 7. After your make your choice, the card is flipped and if your guess was right, your win is doubled. If your guess is not right, you lose your win in that round. If the card is 7, you keep your win and you can continue playing. The cards flipped stay on the screen and a new face down card is placed next to them on the right side.

Every time you choose to Double, you have a maximum of five guesses. The amount you play is your current win, which is displayed in the Win box.

Quote: ksdjdj

The name of the game is Double Poker
Hand Payout
Five of a Kind 500 x Bet
Royal Flush 100 x Bet
Straight Flush 50 x Bet
Four of a Kind 25 x Bet
Full House 15 x Bet
Flush 10 x Bet
Straight 5 x Bet
Three of a Kind 3 x Bet
Two Pairs 2 x Bet
Jacks or Better 1 x Bet

Here is a first shot at the payouts. S# means the number of special cards in the final hand. In the first column of examples, a 2 is the special card. In the second, a ten (T). I suppress the suites in the example hands. R stands for a Joker.

Hand	Pays	Eg. 1	Eg. 2
5K S1	1000	3333R	3333R
5K S5	16000	2222R	TTTTR
RSF S0	100	TJQKA	-
RSF S1	200	RJQKA	TJQKA or RJQKA
RSF S2	400	-	TJRKA
SF S0	50	34567	34567
SF S1	100	23456 or R3456	6789T or 6789R
SF S2	200	2R456	6R89T
4K S0	25	33334	33334
4K S1	50	333R4 or 33332	333R4 or 3333T
4K S2	100	333R2	333RT
4K S4	400	22223 or 222R3	TTTT3 or TTTR3
FH S0	15	33344	33344
FH S1	30	33R44	33R44
FH S2	60	22333	TT333
FH S3	120	22233	TTT33
3K S0	3	33345	33345
3K S1	6	33R45	33R45
3K S3	24	22245 or 22R45	TTT45 or TTR45
2P S0	2	33445	33445
2P S1	4	33442	3344T
2P S2	8	22334	33TT5
JoB S0	1	345JJ	345JJ
JoB S1	2	234JJ or 345JR	34TJJ or 345RJ

Any other cases or errors?

Quote: GaryJKoehler

Here is a first shot at the payouts. S# means the number of special cards in the final hand. In the first column of examples, a 2 is the special card. In the second, a ten (T). I suppress the suites in the example hands. R stands for a Joker.

Hand	Pays	Eg. 1	Eg. 2
5K S1	1000	3333R	3333R
5K S5	16000	2222R	TTTTR
RSF S0	100	TJQKA	-
RSF S1	200	RJQKA	TJQKA or RJQKA
RSF S2	400	-	TJRKA
SF S0	50	34567	34567
SF S1	100	23456 or R3456	6789T or 6789R
SF S2	200	2R456	6R89T
4K S0	25	33334	33334
4K S1	50	333R4 or 33332	333R4 or 3333T
4K S2	100	333R2	333RT
4K S4	400	22223 or 222R3	TTTT3 or TTTR3
FH S0	15	33344	33344
FH S1	30	33R44	33R44
FH S2	60	22333	TT333
FH S3	120	22233	TTT33
3K S0	3	33345	33345
3K S1	6	33R45	33R45
3K S3	24	22245 or 22R45	TTT45 or TTR45
2P S0	2	33445	33445
2P S1	4	33442	3344T
2P S2	8	22334	33TT5
JoB S0	1	345JJ	345JJ
JoB S1	2	234JJ or 345JR	34TJJ or 345RJ

Any other cases or errors?

At first glance, your table looks right to me.

Also, I was about to post that even if the payout was 0 for RF, SF, Fl, and Str, then according to beating bonuses*** website, the player edge is still 39.9% (when the game is played as a ' standard Joker Poker king+' game)

***: i usually like to use the WoO VP calculator as well, but it returned an error this time (possibly to do with putting in 0 for some of the hands, maybe?)

Lastly, since some of the replies are getting big, I will restate that the game is almost certainly 'off' or 'not fair' (see reply January 11th, 2019 at 2:19:12 AM)

Quote: ksdjdj

Also, I was about to post that even if the payout was 0 for RF, SF, Fl, and Str, then according to beating bonuses*** website, the player edge is still 39.9% (when the game is played as a ' standard Joker Poker king+' game)

For a Jacks or Better with these pays and no special card consideration, I get an EV of 1.4342. For Kings or Better I get 1.3502. Not sure why there is a discrepancy between this and your 1.399. ( I am not using the beating bonuses*** website.)

In any case, as you say, "the game is almost certainly 'off' or 'not fair'" or there is something we are all missing.

You can try the game for yourself:
https://www.tomhorngaming.com/games/double-poker/

The designer claims the RTP is 96.22% with high volatility.

Demo does not work on mobile.

I noticed they say:

"This game comes with several exciting twists. The player can choose whether to play with classic cards, or with coloured numbers or torpedoes. Additionally, players can select a ´Magic number´, for each card in a winning hand with the same value as their magic number, the win is doubled. The Joker helps you win the Jackpot of 2,500 credits by completing a Five of a kind combination when playing with five coins."

This makes no sense since the Joker should double the jackpot to 5,000 (or 40,000 if 5K of your special pip).

Also, they give an RTP of 96.22%.

That looks reasonable given how the game ACTUALLY plays-out, but certainly not if it had a fair deal/draw. I'm guessing they are treating this like a slot machine (in the US, a Class II video poker machine).

Am I the only one who sees this.....


If you keep "Magic" cards, you are decreasing your chance of hitting many of the bigger hands.

Drawing 2 to AAT costs a lot of EV compared to drawing 3 to AA.

There is your house edge.

Quote: FCBLComish

Am I the only one who sees this.....


If you keep "Magic" cards, you are decreasing your chance of hitting many of the bigger hands.

Drawing 2 to AAT costs a lot of EV compared to drawing 3 to AA.

There is your house edge.

Thanks for the post

If this played like a fair VP game, you would be right about the 'chances' ,but not always right for the 'expected value', some hands it is better to keep the magic card and others it is not, see below:

I was playing a hybrid strategy (may not be perfect or even close to perfect strategy)

My hybrid strategy was: play Joker Poker kings + basic strategy (amended for JoB) with amendments for the following

Scenario 1: on the initial deal you are dealt two pair
Normally***, you would discard 1 card and hope for a full house
Magic card exceptions***: If I had 1 magic card, I would keep all 5 cards.

***: For this game the expected return is normally about 3.35... for two pair dealt playing correct basic strategy, but if you kept all 5 cards when you had 1 magic card, your expected return would be 4.00 (since your expected return is reduced to 2 for keeping the two pair, but then multiplied by 2 for having 1 magic card)

Scenario 2: on the initial deal you are dealt a pair of Aces
Normally^^^, you would discard 3 cards and hope to improve the pair.
Magic card exceptions^^^: If I had 1 magic card, I would keep the pair and the magic card.

^^^: For this game the expected return is normally about 1.87... for a pair of Aces dealt playing correct basic strategy, but if you kept the pair and the magic card, your expected return would be at least 3.20... (since your expected return is reduced to about1.60... for keeping the magic card, but then that figure is multiplied by 2 for having 1 magic card)

Scenario 3: you have Kh 10d 8c 5s 2c
normally^*^: you would only keep the K,
Magic card exceptions^*^ If I had 1 magic card, I would keep the K and the magic card.

^*^: For this game the expected return is normally about 0.5998... for the 'K 10 8 5 2' hand dealt playing correct basic strategy, but if you kept the K and the magic card, your expected return would be at least 0.926... (since your expected return is reduced to about 0.463... for keeping the magic card, but then that figure is multiplied by 2 for having 1 magic card)

one example of correct strategy in discarding a magic card would be: when you had 3 to a straight flush zero 'skip' or one 'skip' eg 5h 6h 7h (0 'skip') or 5h 6h 8h (1 'skip') plus 10d Ac, you would go for the straight flush in those sorts of cases

There are other examples of when to discard the magic card, but all seem to be to do with high chance flush and straight draws, eg. 4 to a flush on the first deal.

for hand analysis I used the website below:

https://wizardofodds.com/games/video-poker/hand-analyzer/

I think* the numbers above are right, but the grammar and spelling hasn't been checked
think*: if the numbers are not right, then it was my fault somewhere along the way, as the hand-analyzer used is solid according to people a lot smarter than myself at mathematical programming.

----------
Since I think GaryJ is right that this game is no good because It plays like a 'slot machine' to make the RTP about 96% (I won't be demo-play testing it anymore since it is now a waste of time for an AP player)

Before giving up on the game completely, i tested out the 'game plays like a slot' theory, and for every paying single pair hand that I also had the magic number for I would purposely discard the magic card and the other two garbage cards (every time i did that i would get two pair for that hand) this was observed at least 10 times during the test.
What are the odds for that if this was a 'fairly dealt' game? (i can't remember how many hands for that round of demo-play i played, so this question might not be able to be answered very well, if at all)

Lastly, even though i never got a flush or straight on the 2nd deal(as stated earlier in the thread), I did get about 5 flushes on the initial deal and either 0 or 1 straight on the initial deal as well, out of about 2400 hands (before the last test above)
-----------

once again thanks for the post

Looks pretty clear that "Vegas Style" VP rules don't apply to this game unfortunately.

Quote: ksdjdj

Before giving up on the game completely, i tested out the 'game plays like a slot' theory, and for every paying single pair hand that I also had the magic number for I would purposely discard the magic card and the other two garbage cards (every time i did that i would get two pair for that hand) this was observed at least 10 times during the test.

Same here except I got a 2-pair OR BETTER (like 3 of a kind).