Avoiding the "DO NOT INVITE" list after extended winning

So I've been beating a certain casino group consistently for ~2 years now on video poker. I'm concerned about being put on a "DNI" list and having my precious free play and promotions yanked from me. I'm primarily a single-line quarter player, so I rarely get W2-G's. Occasionally, I'll play dollar demon when I want to rack up some coin-in quickly, but its safe to say I get >5 of them a year (My taxes suck, but that's a different discussion)

Any advice on what games I can play for "cover" to avoid the DNI list? I would prefer playing table games like Craps/Blackjack/Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. If table games won't suffice, I can play 98% payback VP or slot machines. Any idea of how much coin-in I would need in relative to my average coin-in that I regularly play?


Last year, I lost a nice chunk of my winnings at the Craps table (I found out the hard way that DI doesn't work) so that may have helped buy me some cover as well.


Thank you.

Quote: Dyvan13

So I've been beating a certain casino group consistently for ~2 years now on video poker. I'm concerned about being put on a "DNI" list and having my precious free play and promotions yanked from me. I'm primarily a single-line quarter player, so I rarely get W2-G's. Occasionally, I'll play dollar demon when I want to rack up some coin-in quickly, but its safe to say I get >5 of them a year (My taxes suck, but that's a different discussion)

Any advice on what games I can play for "cover" to avoid the DNI list? I would prefer playing table games like Craps/Blackjack/Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. If table games won't suffice, I can play 98% payback VP or slot machines. Any idea of how much coin-in I would need in relative to my average coin-in that I regularly play?


Last year, I lost a nice chunk of my winnings at the Craps table (I found out the hard way that DI doesn't work) so that may have helped buy me some cover as well.


Thank you.

Are you actually beating them on vp?

Or are you getting great return combined with comps thst turns the situation plus ev?

If you are consistently beating them without comps anyway who cares

If you need the comps to keep the situation +ev then just milk it until its over... then get someone elses players card and repeat

You can also try DI again. That was good cover

Quote: darkoz

Are you actually beating them on vp?

Or are you getting great return combined with comps thst turns the situation plus ev?

If you are consistently beating them without comps anyway who cares

If you need the comps to keep the situation +ev then just milk it until its over... then get someone elses players card and repeat

You can also try DI again. That was good cover

Darkoz, I think your advice to the OP to get someone else's Player's Club card and repeat his playing is a bad idea considering he thinks the Casinos are getting resentful of him. I'm not sure if "Resentful," is the right word for what I am trying to say. I might be thinking of wary, suspicious,. jaded, etc. The last thing he should want is for the Casino to get upset that he is using a card that isn't his own. Granted, he would most likely have the permission of the person whose name is on the card bit still that could open up a new can of snakes. Yes, I said snakes rather than worms to put more emphasis.

Quote: Nathan

Darkoz, I think your advice to the OP to get someone else's Player's Club card and repeat his playing is a bad idea considering he thinks the Casinos are getting resentful of him. I'm not sure if "Resentful," is the right word for what I am trying to say. I might be thinking of wary, suspicious,. jaded, etc. The last thing he should want is for the Casino to get upset that he is using a card that isn't his own. Granted, he would most likely have the permission of the person whose name is on the card bit still that could open up a new can of snakes. Yes, I said snakes rather than worms to put more emphasis.

Winning in casinos is going to make them resentful. That cant be avoided

Look at how casinos treat card counters with a very small edge

I have seen casino crackdowns on $25 bus bonuses

Its war baby. Either make your moves or go get a regular 9-5

Quote: darkoz

Winning in casinos is going to make them resentful. That cant be avoided

Look at how casinos treat card counters with a very small edge

I have seen casino crackdowns on $25 bus bonuses

Its war baby. Either make your moves or go get a regular 9-5

To be fair, I was talking more about the playing with someone else's Player's Club card being a big no no in Casinos, especially if you might be in dangerous of being on their hit list(Hit is supposed to be spelled with an S in front of it, ;))

I've read that it is popular for some slot AP's to use a bunch of different player's cards in order to accumulate free play.

A couple questions:

If you are using another's card and a jackpot ensue's triggering a hand pay, how does the player produce ID in the card-holder's name?

Earned free play presumably would be sent to the address listed by the card holder, so how would the AP get to access it? I suspect he'd need the card holder's P.I.N. for this?

Does the advent of facial recognition software serve as any sort of deterrent?

Quote: Dyvan13

So I've been beating a certain casino group consistently for ~2 years now on video poker. I'm concerned about being put on a "DNI" list and having my precious free play and promotions yanked from me. I'm primarily a single-line quarter player, so I rarely get W2-G's. Occasionally, I'll play dollar demon when I want to rack up some coin-in quickly, but its safe to say I get >5 of them a year (My taxes suck, but that's a different discussion)

Any advice on what games I can play for "cover" to avoid the DNI list? I would prefer playing table games like Craps/Blackjack/Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. If table games won't suffice, I can play 98% payback VP or slot machines. Any idea of how much coin-in I would need in relative to my average coin-in that I regularly play?


Last year, I lost a nice chunk of my winnings at the Craps table (I found out the hard way that DI doesn't work) so that may have helped buy me some cover as well.


Thank you.

Of craps/bj/uth, uth gives you by far the best return on your ratings/comps, in my experience. For example, Harrah LV (as of 2014, when I asked and got an answer) rates you at 4x your ante bet + amount on Trips. That's right in line with the ~4.1x ante bet Mike shows under optimal play.

I think craps is the worst rating of those 3, and bj is slightly less advantageous than uth but better than craps, just because bj has more decisions per hour in nearly all cases. Carnival games in general get you better ratings than either, in part because of the higher HE, but tempered by the lower HPH. But the variance also plays a factor in their comp algorithms, and carnival variance is comparatively huge.

PGP, which you didn't mention, is the worst of the carnival games for ratings, and perhaps worse than either bj or craps. I was told it was the worst game in the house for a ratings boost, because of the low HE, and only about 25-30 HPH. I'm not sure that's accurate everywhere. And it was for Fortune PGP, was told that 20 years ago, so maybe not true for EZ PGP or other variations.

Better than all of those is slots, of course. And Big 6 wheel and junk like that. But that's for comp calculation.

I would assume the comp rating for baccarat / mini-baccarat is not particularly good either?

Quote: MrV

I've read that it is popular for some slot AP's to use a bunch of different player's cards in order to accumulate free play.

A couple questions:

If you are using another's card and a jackpot ensue's triggering a hand pay, how does the player produce ID in the card-holder's name?

Earned free play presumably would be sent to the address listed by the card holder, so how would the AP get to access it? I suspect he'd need the card holder's P.I.N. for this?

Does the advent of facial recognition software serve as any sort of deterrent?

Answer 1) pull the persons card out and call over the attendent. Hand over your own id. Cameras show it was you playing. Card that was in machine is inconsequential. Most casinos dont check but the few that do you just say you sat down and didnt realize someone left their card in. No different than if you legit sat down at a slot unrated, won a jackpot and suddenly noticed someone left their card in the machine

Answer 2) correct. NEVER use a strangers players card. It is only legal if the person gives permisssion. They supply the card the pin and with my people they hand over all their mail (or send photos)

Answer 3) simple answer: No.

Long answer: very few casinos take photos of the cardholders. Never seen a casino snapshot EVERYONE when downloading fp and comparing it to... ? Yesterday's photos of everyone? Facial recognition for fp downloading simply is a non-issue at this time

I think you need to be mindful of EV... if you're mainly a quarter single line player, you really can't be beating them for a lot. I'm "ASSUMING" you are an AP and have an edge with what you're doing and not just running hot? VP has wild variance, so it's very plausible for a VP player to be positive for years if they have a few big hits, especially if you're playing games other than JoB.

I would not give your EV back to them unless you have a really, really, good reason. For example, say you make $10k per casino per year. Say you "give back" $2k/year in EV by playing these other games for "cover." Well, pending the number of casinos (sounds like a few, so let's say 3?) you could be giving away another years worth of EV by the time you get the DNI anyways.

What I'm trying to say is, in the end your record will speak for itself. What you really need to do is get more cards to play on, pick FP up on, etc. That way you're spreading your action around and keeping yourself below the radar without exposing any loss to your EV. If you just stick to one card, the only cover that will protect you in the long run is enough of a cost that you are no longer an AP (i.e. the cover is worthless). Make the $, don't give it back.

Quote: Romes

I think you need to be mindful of EV... if you're mainly a quarter single line player, you really can't be beating them for a lot. I'm "ASSUMING" you are an AP and have an edge with what you're doing and not just running hot? VP has wild variance, so it's very plausible for a VP player to be positive for years if they have a few big hits, especially if you're playing games other than JoB.

I would not give your EV back to them unless you have a really, really, good reason. For example, say you make $10k per casino per year. Say you "give back" $2k/year in EV by playing these other games for "cover." Well, pending the number of casinos (sounds like a few, so let's say 3?) you could be giving away another years worth of EV by the time you get the DNI anyways.

What I'm trying to say is, in the end your record will speak for itself. What you really need to do is get more cards to play on, pick FP up on, etc. That way you're spreading your action around and keeping yourself below the radar without exposing any loss to your EV. If you just stick to one card, the only cover that will protect you in the long run is enough of a cost that you are no longer an AP (i.e. the cover is worthless). Make the $, don't give it back.

There you heard it from Romes too

Mulitple cards baby!!!

Quote: darkoz

Don't know what you got till it's gone
Don't know what it is I did so wrong
Now I know what I got
It's just this song
And it ain't easy to get back
Takes so long......

Who's to blame?

Quote: Dyvan13

So I've been beating a certain casino group consistently for ~2 years now on video poker. I'm concerned about being put on a "DNI" list and having my precious free play and promotions yanked from me. I'm primarily a single-line quarter player, so I rarely get W2-G's. Occasionally, I'll play dollar demon when I want to rack up some coin-in quickly, but its safe to say I get >5 of them a year (My taxes suck, but that's a different discussion)

Any advice on what games I can play for "cover" to avoid the DNI list? I would prefer playing table games like Craps/Blackjack/Ultimate Texas Hold 'em. If table games won't suffice, I can play 98% payback VP or slot machines. Any idea of how much coin-in I would need in relative to my average coin-in that I regularly play?


Last year, I lost a nice chunk of my winnings at the Craps table (I found out the hard way that DI doesn't work) so that may have helped buy me some cover as well.


Thank you.

IIRC -- Based on the game(s) you're playing and the casinos you're playing, you shouldn't worry about it. Plus, your EV is too low to worry about playing something else for cover. Also probably not good to go into other games as "cover" in case you fall back into bad habits.

MRV,

You always seem interested in this subject. Oh well, I guess I have to get back started somewhere, so we'll go with this post.

Quote: MrV

If you are using another's card and a jackpot ensues triggering a hand pay, how does the player produce ID in the card-holder's name?

They don't, unless they have incredible (and highly illegal) connections.

The first thing is that you would generally avoid playing anything in which a handpay is even possible when using someone else's card, so it's generally a moot question. This is especially true when playing off free play, it would be a pretty serious screw up to hit a hand pay when playing off free play on someone else's card, so you would generally just play a game upon which that can't happen.

The only time you would even really have to worry about it is when you're running coin-in on a particular card, and even then, you would avoid handpay situations to any extent that it's reasonably possible to do so.

In the event that they cannot be completely avoided, then you would just take the card out upon triggering the handpay and tell the slot person it was already there if it even gets mentioned, which it probably won't. If you wanted to be extremely cautious and have a partner, you could have him sit down, put the card in, play a couple hands and then, "Abandon," the card...but I would call that a serious overabundance of caution.

Quote:

Earned free play presumably would be sent to the address listed by the card holder, so how would the AP get to access it? I suspect he'd need the card holder's P.I.N. for this?

I mean, the Free Play is generally already on the card itself or downloadable at the kiosk. If you're asking how would the person know when/how much Free Play was on there:

1.) Physical mail isn't always the only means by which to receive/view offers.

2.) Usually the person to whom the card belongs tells the person picking up the free play that information.

3.) Most casinos will put in any mailing address you want, even if it differs from your ID, so the person picking up the free play can just as easily be having the mail sent to himself or herself.

Quote:

Does the advent of facial recognition software serve as any sort of deterrent?

I mean, if a casino is known to actually have it, probably only if you're 86'ed.

The casino already essentially has facial recognition without having it, if you're talking about being worried about using someone else's card. For one thing, it's pretty clear that I'm not a 22 year old woman or a 60 year old man, so you really don't need facial recognition to know I'm not either of those people. If I were running multiple cards somewhere, yeah, I would love for all of the people to be tall, fat guys in their mid-30's, but that's probably not going to happen. More than that, many casinos get your drivers license when you sign up and some scan it into the computer, so when that happens, they have a picture of you, anyway.

In general terms, you're not going to just, "Get caught," using someone else's card. The casino was probably already onto you specifically, or knew something was going on (in general) for that to happen. People generally don't like to make more work for themselves, so most people aren't going to be inclined to check the cards against every single other person playing on the floor to make sure nobody in the casino is using someone else's card.

It would honestly be the easiest thing in the world to catch if they wanted to, but they're usually going to lean on the side of not hassling people unless they absolutely know something is going on. Even then, they might not particularly care.

I would NEVER use someone else's player's club card. That is crossing the line beyond AP in my opinion.

My Dad used to count at a casino in Cripple Creek for a couple of years. He got barred from that game, but the marketing department continued to send him free play/meals/rooms. Naturally, he was happy to come back and play some -EV game on their dime. It took them several months for the two departments to sync up and finally, no more free play.

Point is, I see no point in trying to avoid getting disinvited. Just play VP with perfect strategy and take the comps they offer. If they yank your comps, then you have to decide whether to continue playing or go to another casino. Don't worry about it now.

Quote: KevinAA

I would NEVER use someone else's player's club card. That is crossing the line beyond AP in my opinion...

So if you had a wife/husband/significant other, and you wanted to play on 1 card to get a higher tier level, that's crossing some line? That's practically celebrated at most casinos, let alone not illegal in any fashion. How is it any different if I have my brother sign up for a card and I want to earn him some points?

Quote: KevinAA

I would NEVER use someone else's player's club card. That is crossing the line beyond AP in my opinion.

My Dad used to count at a casino in Cripple Creek for a couple of years. He got barred from that game, but the marketing department continued to send him free play/meals/rooms. Naturally, he was happy to come back and play some -EV game on their dime. It took them several months for the two departments to sync up and finally, no more free play.

Point is, I see no point in trying to avoid getting disinvited. Just play VP with perfect strategy and take the comps they offer. If they yank your comps, then you have to decide whether to continue playing or go to another casino. Don't worry about it now.

Your opinion in this matter doesnt count

All that counts is its not illegal

I have had cops called on me a few times by overzealous casino security and the cops say sorry no law broken. No charges pressed. I even had to call gaming when the casino refused cashout

Imagine - im calling the authorities ON THEM!!!

Quote: KevinAA

I would NEVER use someone else's player's club card. That is crossing the line beyond AP in my opinion.

When your opinion starts paying cash money to the APs who use other peoples' cards, then I imagine they'll be concerned with your opinion at that time.

Besides, there's been some kind of agreement anytime I've ever seen it happen. We're not talking about stealing other peoples' cards, or anything.