How to determine VP is VLT vs RNG?
I wanted some clarification on how to determine whether the machines are fake before I go wasting my paycheck on them. I read that in New York State you have to be extra careful.
Casinos near me (upstate ny):
Finger Lakes Gaming Race track = racino = VLC?
Seneca Niagara/Creek = Indian = ?
Del Lago = Commercial = ?
Turning Stone = Indian = ?
.......
I did some further investigation for Del Lago specifically, and there were primarily two types of machines;
*IGT Game King multi game *
*Wms / scientific gaming (multi hands up to 10)*
Extra info: For Del Lago at the best case scenario the pay tables calculated:
98.91%
Deuces
98.45%
Jacks or Better
98.01%
Bonus poker
..........
Ultimately, I would like to know if Del Lago or any of the other casinos have an actual RNG.
-Thanks so much!
I wouldn't say they are not worth playing PERIOD. Given the right situation(adding in some type of promotion of course), they could be +EV. Unless you had specific information regarding the VP, I would find out what the state minimum payback was and use that when calculating the situation.Quote: VPBJ24Hi everyone, this is my first post! I really love VP, so I bought a couple books on the topic. It was brought to my attention that some VP are Video Lottery Terminal aka fake/ not worth playing.
I wanted some clarification on how to determine whether the machines are fake before I go wasting my paycheck on them. I read that in New York State you have to be extra careful.
Casinos near me (upstate ny):
Finger Lakes Gaming Race track = racino = VLC?
Seneca Niagara/Creek = Indian = ?
Del Lago = Commercial = ?
Turning Stone = Indian = ?
.......
I did some further investigation for Del Lago specifically, and there were primarily two types of machines;
*IGT Game King multi game *
*Wms / scientific gaming (multi hands up to 10)*
Extra info: For Del Lago at the best case scenario the pay tables calculated:
98.91%
Deuces
98.45%
Jacks or Better
98.01%
Bonus poker
..........
Ultimately, I would like to know if Del Lago or any of the other casinos have an actual RNG.
-Thanks so much!
I also wouldn't assume hand cycles are what they should be on a fair VP machine.
Some people are skeptical of any game using an RNG in an Indian casino, doesn't matter if its VLC, IGT or whatever.
Some long time VP pros have been getting fairly bad results playing VP at many Indian joints. Is it paranoid selective memory? I don't really know, but they avoid playing small edges at many Indian casinos, even on IGT.
Anyway, if it's a VLT or bingo machine or whatever, apparently the win or loss is predetermined and it doesn't matter what you hold, you'll get the same payout. If that holds true, then you should be able to wait until you get dealt a decent hand like a flush, straight, etc. then hold 2 of the cards, and see if you redraw that same hand (or same payout). Even on a random machine, this could happen as well. So if it happens, keep trying it a few more times to verify it's a VLT or fake-VP machine.
But I'm sure others who have more experience in this field can explain more (or say if I'm right or wrong).
http://nylottery.ny.gov/wps/portal/Home/Lottery/Home/Video+Gaming/VIDEO+GAMING+REPORTS
So Finger Lakes is a VLT house (fake video poker).
Seneca, Turning Stone - these are Indian casinos with class III gaming (real video poker).
Del Lago appears to be one of the new resort casinos, not run by the NY lottery, so it could be class III, but I can't say for sure.
The best way to tell if the VP at Del Lago is fake is to play something like Jacks or Better, and if you are dealt a high pair such as 2-3-7-J-J, try holding 2-3-7-J to see what happens. If there is a "match card bonus" or a genie/fairy/wizard helps you out, then it is fake video poker. If you end up losing the hand with no fanfare, you can be fairly sure it is class III.
It sucks because those pay tables are not ideal, and I think Jacks or Better was the Full Pay a month ago. Additionally the best payout is at $1 (max bet aka $5), the 25c and 50c have even worse around 96%!
..I was hoping to do quarters so a Royal would be under $1200. Which i know Racinos that leverage point is $600, but Senaca, Turning, and Del Lago is $1200 correct?
Are you sure? I would think the genie only appears if there is no acceptable replacement in the deck. Like if you're dealt quads and toss one of them. Toss them all and you'll draw quads of a different rank.Quote: JB... If there is a "match card bonus" or a genie/fairy/wizard helps you out, then it is fake video poker.
Similarly, in your example where you break a pair of jacks, there are two other jacks that could be drawn.
Of course that's no proof because you could have been destined to get trips. But if this happens every time, it's not RNG...
Quote: DJTeddyBearAre you sure? I would think the genie only appears if there is no acceptable replacement in the deck. Like if you're dealt quads and toss one of them. Toss them all and you'll draw quads of a different rank.
Similarly, in your example where you break a pair of jacks, there are two other jacks that could be drawn.
Of course that's no proof because you could have been destined to get trips. But if this happens every time, it's not RNG...
This is correct. In my experience with the IGT machines, the fairy only helps if it cannot deal the intended winning hand.
There is surely something in the help screens that would tell you you're playing fake VP. It would be interesting to see them.
Quote: DJTeddyBearAre you sure? I would think the genie only appears if there is no acceptable replacement in the deck. Like if you're dealt quads and toss one of them. Toss them all and you'll draw quads of a different rank.
Similarly, in your example where you break a pair of jacks, there are two other jacks that could be drawn.
Of course that's no proof because you could have been destined to get trips. But if this happens every time, it's not RNG...
It would be rather silly to wait for a dealt quad and then break it to find out if a machine is class II or class III.
Hence my less-costly suggestion. If you break a high pair and hold three junk cards, you leave open a very narrow window (2/47 chance) of ending up with the same win on a class III machine. If you don't get the high pair back on the draw, you know right away it's class III. If you end up getting back the high pair every time, or somehow end up with a higher prize, then it becomes obvious that the win was predetermined.
But will def try some of those suggestions, see if i end up getting the same hand.
Quote: FaceI can confirm all Seneca Class III properties use RNG. You're good at the Falls or in the Creek.
Awesome! How are the paytables? Any 25c Full Pay?
And what about progressives?
Thanks:)
Quote: onenickelmiracleWith the Native American places, you can't really be so sure. Turning Stone always referred to the machines as multi-game machines, which I never really fully understood. Also playing some of their slots, I'd see notation something like "joining game XXXXX". Never really understood this. I haven't been there in a good 7 years fwiw.
Those are probably Class II bingo games where you see it "joining a game".
I totally agree. But your original post was worded differently. It seemed like you were suggesting that the genie would appear to fix the pair of jacks.Quote: JBIt would be rather silly to wait for a dealt quad and then break it to find out if a machine is class II or class III.
Hence my less-costly suggestion...
Quote: DJTeddyBearI totally agree. But your original post was worded differently. It seemed like you were suggesting that the genie would appear to fix the pair of jacks.
I was under the impression that the game could either intentionally draw one of the remaining Jacks, or it could draw a random card and use the genie to change it into a Jack. I don't know for sure since I've never seen the genie mechanism.
I have seen the match card mechanism on a class II (bingo) machine. In case anyone is curious, the way the match card mechanism pretends to work is like this:
1) after you hit draw, it "randomly" chooses a card
2) if the last card drawn to your hand matches the chosen card, you win a "bonus" prize
Of course, it's just smoke and mirrors. Your "strategy" can determine whether or not it needs to employ the mechanism (in a winning manner). Often, the machine will deal you a losing hand but use the match card mechanism to award your predetermined prize. This will always be the case when the prize is an odd amount, which can happen since you are really playing bingo against other players, and it's not uncommon for the prize pool to have been split multiple ways.
I would've held the straight flush draw according to the pay table seen regardless of class II or not in case of a goof.
https://youtu.be/fXYP3Fprdtc
I thought so, but they don't show bingo cards. Guess they don't have to or nobody cares if they don't.Quote: DRichThose are probably Class II bingo games where you see it "joining a game".
Quote: onenickelmiracleI thought so, but they don't show bingo cards. Guess they don't have to or nobody cares if they don't.
Some games are called Pull Tab or centrally determined games (the outcome comes from a server). Those act similar to class II, but they are not bingo. I know these exist in Washington and NY.
