Strip's shameful video poker

OK, I'm not much of a video poker player. The only game I know how to play competently is Deuces Wild. But I have been thinking of branching out into full-pay Jacks or Better because apparently the comps are better and the swings are milder.

So I went on VPfree to see what's offered on the Strip in terms of JoB. It's infuriating that no major casino on the Strip offers this game (which isn't even positive) for less than 10 bucks a pull. Most offer it only at 25 bucks a pull. Would it kill them to put in one bank of .25/.50/$1 VP games with a decent paytable?

Yes it would, because the tourist who does not know any better will lose less money to them, they figure a real gambler will play the higher denomination, thats why I think on average, the good games in any casino are $25+ a hand!

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

... the tourist who does not know any better will lose less money to them,

What worries them the most is probably that the tourist would never get to play on the machine because locals will seek it out and hog it day and night if its a real good deal.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Yes it would, because the tourist who does not know any better will lose less money to them, they figure a real gambler will play the higher denomination, thats why I think on average, the good games in any casino are $25+ a hand!

Exactly right. Very fine, Nick, your short comment cuts right through the B.S. and gets to the real f******ng story as to how it works for a bad deal - or a fair deal. Real gamblers aren't fooled, but they try so hard on the strip.

The good action - in the sense of FAIR action - both slots and table play - are off-strip: Boulder Highway, Downtown, and Henderson. Not far....My brother, who visits LV three times a year (and not just to see me) - gets deals at the Wynn, the Bellagio, and the Encore to stay in confort. But when he wants to really gamble, - after hitting his quota at those places - he'll hit Sunset Station, Palace Station and Fiesta, and downtown, where the locals play for fair odds and - simply put - at better odds. He also claims that Casino Royale is an "off-strip value-dive" right on the strip, too. He'll take his comped room at Casino Royale, and play there just as often as the "B" - and enjoy vacation life on the strip.

Not that he plays the field bet when he's on a crap game - it's just that he trusts a house that has "12 pays 3x" on the field with 10x odds to boot. He knows that's a fair game. He then plays their 99% 25 cent machines, too.

Some tourists refuse to get fleeced when doing their gambling when in town. And they're probably perusing this site, too.

A lot of tourists DO know - and you see them on the strip bus going "up to downtown," or with rent-a-cars at Sam's town or Fiesta, or even staying there. Some tourists actually stay off-strip, and travel to the strip for the show and site-seeing. Or Stay on the strip at the Tropicana, the Riviera, Casino Royale, or the Sahara.

A real gambler plays 25c machines at 99% payback, and craps with 10x odds with "12 pays 3" on the field, and Commission-free Pai Gow at Fiesta, and $10 Baccarat at Sunset Station, and $5 or $10 double deck at the Stations and the Boyd properties, and sports betting at the Stetson's Casino, etc.

A real gambler knows where to go for his action. A real gambler isn't a tourist - otherwise he'd be in Atlantic City.

Quote: FleaStiff

What worries them the most is probably that the tourist would never get to play on the machine because locals will seek it out and hog it day and night if its a real good deal.

Locals wouldn't bother driving to the Strip for such a game. As Paigow Dan mentioned, JoB at 99.5% is widely available elsewhere in Las Vegas, and really it's not THAT great a game compared with Deuces Wild at 100.7%.

However, locals would play quarter or dollar JoB if they happened to be on the Strip, entertaining guests or whatever. That's why it's stupid not to have a few machines hidden in the back of a casino. If a tourist happens to plop down there, chances are he won't play it properly anyway.

The Station and Boyd casinos are just better in every way when it comes to gambling. One of my friends has a really good analogy for Strip vs. suburbs. The Strip places, he says, are on the car dealer model: Hit 'em big for a lot of money at one time. The suburban casinos are on the grocery store model: Keep them coming back week after week with low prices.

Quote: nyuhoosier

JoB at 99.5% is widely available, and really it's not THAT great a game compared with Deuces Wild at 100.7%.

Okay, for someone like me who is math challenged... just how many hours of play would it take to really make a difference between 99.5 and 100.7? I mean sure there is a difference, but unless you sit there cramming money into the machine and hitting the red button faster than a trained monkey could do it, what difference will it make?

>The Station and Boyd casinos are just better in every way when it comes to gambling.
Perhaps. The trouble is that many people come to Vegas to gawk rather than to gamble.

>The suburban casinos are on the grocery store model: Keep them coming back week after week with low prices.
yeah, I think that's what those Dotty's Cafe places do. Good games, comfortable chairs and nothing much else.
Its sort of a Vegas for people who've already seen bright lights, hookers, drunks, shows and nightclubs. All they want now is a Red Button and a Red Bull that has been comped.

Unfortunately, I'm no help on the math. You're right; the difference between those games is relatively small. They're both good games, but JoB is less good.

You can't find quarter video poker ($1.25 a pull) on the Strip with a paytable better than 98.0% though, and you will lose a lot of money long-term playing that. 98 vs. 100.7 is significant. One exception is at the Tropicana where they have Not So Ugly Deuces at something like 99 percent.

Just out of curiosity, where did the phrase Not so ugly deuces come from? Isn't it just a short pay version of deuces wild?

Perhaps it:
Someone who knows what they are doing: Isn't it just a short-pay version of deuces wild?
Fanny pack bedecked tourist at Harrah's: Not So Ugly Deuces.

Quote: nyuhoosier

OK, I'm not much of a video poker player. The only game I know how to play competently is Deuces Wild. But I have been thinking of branching out into full-pay Jacks or Better because apparently the comps are better and the swings are milder.

So I went on VPfree to see what's offered on the Strip in terms of JoB. It's infuriating that no major casino on the Strip offers this game (which isn't even positive) for less than 10 bucks a pull. Most offer it only at 25 bucks a pull. Would it kill them to put in one bank of .25/.50/$1 VP games with a decent paytable?

It's kind of strange how the pendulum has swung. Ten years ago, when the Great Video Poker Purge began, just about every Strip megatoilet had fullpay JOB, often in high denominations. They also had excellent comp rates and good player ratings, especially compared to the crap offerings you get today. Slamming $50K or $60K through a VP machine would only carry a loss expectation of about $250-300, but it would get you several times that in offers, comps, etc.

The destruction of this kind of play can be directly attributed to the monopolization of the Strip, led by Harrah's. Caesar's is one good example of a Strip casino that used to have decent VP (some even better than JOB), and treated its customers very well. Now, it's a shell of its former self, with Harrahsized gambling, destroyed video poker, and an utter lack of value.

I'd recommend that you take your action to someplace that will appreciate it. South Point is one casino that offers good VP, a very good slot club, and excellent accomodations. They will also not treat you like something the cat threw up just because you're unwilling to lose thousands of dollars there.

Quote: FleaStiff

Okay, for someone like me who is math challenged... just how many hours of play would it take to really make a difference between 99.5 and 100.7? I mean sure there is a difference, but unless you sit there cramming money into the machine and hitting the red button faster than a trained monkey could do it, what difference will it make?

.

Speed is a relative function. What really matters is that you will lose an amount on JOB roughly equivalent to what you would have won on FPDW, assuming you play both games well.

A modest speed would be 400 hands an hour. This equates to, at .25 denominations, $500 coin-in/hr. At JOB, you would expect to lose a little less than $2.50/hr. At FPDW, you would expect to win about $3.50/hr. So the difference between the two games, at that speed, would be $6/hr. For the quarter player, this would be in the neighborhood of a $100 difference over a long weekend. Not trivial.

Quote: NicksGamingStuff

Just out of curiosity, where did the phrase Not so ugly deuces come from? Isn't it just a short pay version of deuces wild?

Skip Hughes coined it, in a double play on words that deuces are often referred to as "ducks". There were many short-pay versions of Deuces Wild that were collectively called "Ugly Ducks"; those games had paytables returning as low as 94%. The 16-10-4-4 version of Deuces Wild turned out to return 99.73% with optimal play, however, and with slot club benefits, could often be played as a positive EV game. Many casinos offered (and still offer) NSUD but not FPDW, such as South Point, Peppermill in Reno, etc., and have generous slot clubs that make playing NSUD there still worthwhile.

Quote: mkl654321

For the quarter player, this would be in the neighborhood of a $100 difference over a long weekend. Not trivial.

Well, the quarter player is really playing 1.25 per "pull" of the one arm. In reality of course its per slap of the Red Button.

$100.00. Agreed, its not trivial. Nor are the free drinks trivial. They refresh and keep the player attentive to proper strategy. The amount while not trivial is to be viewed in terms of relationship to bankroll, relationship to cost of airfare, rooms and meals. And of course in relation to time.

If one machine is a 2.50 expected loss and another machine is an expected 3.50 win then there is a significant difference even if this is eroded by tips, fatigue, other gambling obligations due to companions, etc.

I should start looking into this Video Poker thing. After all, it really doesn't matter if I have the exact opposite of a Poker Face now does it. I'm playing against a Random Number Generator that can't see the expression on my face. I won't be trying to bluff anyone even though the game is named Poker. Guess I better figure out this Two Pair versus Royal Flush stuff!

Quote: FleaStiff

$100.00. Agreed, its not trivial. Nor are the free drinks trivial. They refresh and keep the player attentive to proper strategy. The amount while not trivial is to be viewed in terms of relationship to bankroll, relationship to cost of airfare, rooms and meals. And of course in relation to time.

The other factor that has to be considered is how your play will be rewarded. Two casinos I have played at heavily in recent years illustrate. The Palms has the best .25 video poker in town, and a very good slot club: the total EV of their best games approaches 101%. However, they send out absolutely zippo in terms of room offers (or anything else) to players who only play those games. The South Point's best games have usually been 99.73% NSUD, with a .3% cash rebate slot club. They also send out excellent room/food offers.

I recently got my usual quarterly offer from South Point: 2 free nights, $50 in slot/VP play, and a $50 food credit. I have received my usual nothing from the Palms: an "offer" to stay two nights at the "special" rate of $149 (woo bloody hoo). Assuming the offers had been generated from my last trip, which involved about 20 hours of quarter play at each casino, I would have made about $140 at the Palms, and pretty much nothing at the South Point, on average--but I actually netted MORE value from the South Point, since the offer could be conservatively valued at $200.

I like to play JOB mostly in Vegas. I find I get better offers from places than playing the NSUD or FPDW. The Palms still sends me very attractive offers, and I used one last June. At home, I like to play NSUD because it has the best return and I'm not worried about generating room comps.

Quote: mkl654321

--but I actually netted MORE value from the South Point, since the offer could be conservatively valued at $200.

Strange. I've heard that South Point is a Sweat The Money, Boot Out The Card Counter, Offer Diddly Squat at Craps type place. If they eject low level card counters and offer only 2x at craps, why are they generous to VP players?

Quote: FleaStiff

Strange. I've heard that South Point is a Sweat The Money, Boot Out The Card Counter, Offer Diddly Squat at Craps type place. If they eject low level card counters and offer only 2x at craps, why are they generous to VP players?

Because they are located smack dab in the middle of a huge and growing (at least until recently) residential district. Vegas locals like games with low house edges, and they like to have their play tracked precisely so they can get free play and food comps. Video poker does all of those things. Furthermore, for frequent players, video poker offers more variety than table games.

It all comes down to a praqmatic marketing decision. They have no "captive audience", the way the Strip does. They have to give people incentives to come back, as well as to go there in the first place. They do that with good promotions, a generous slot club, and the highest cash back in town.

If you think that is bad... The only casino that I can drive to of course is an indian casino, but the best pay table they have is 6-5 Jacks or Better :( And on top of that, they only have a couple dozen game kings that allow nickels, and they are always tied up by keno players!!! I would really really hate to make a trip to Vegas some day just to find out that I am still stuck with 6-5 Jacks or Better :P

Quote: FleaStiff

Okay, for someone like me who is math challenged... just how many hours of play would it take to really make a difference between 99.5 and 100.7? I mean sure there is a difference, but unless you sit there cramming money into the machine and hitting the red button faster than a trained monkey could do it, what difference will it make?

Funny... where did I hear that before? Oh, I know... Rob Singer!

Quote: AlanMendelson

Funny... where did I hear that before? Oh, I know... XXXXXXXXX!

You idiot! Don't you know if you say his name -- like Voldemort -- you grant him permission to visit the inside of your head and torment you to your Martingale-esque death?

The answer is... Relatively quickly. Not in one hour but over the course of week in Vegas if you pks a fair amount.

I produced graphs of the expected results of various spy tables over around 10,000 hands. They are pstd on here.

You can pay a fair amount for that one less coin on a full house. Any thing can happen, but I'd prefer to have more good things happen and less chance of having cider squirt in my ear...

Quote: nyuhoosier

But I have been thinking of branching out into full-pay Jacks or Better because apparently the comps are better and the swings are milder.
It's infuriating that no major casino on the Strip offers this game for less than 10 bucks a pull. Most offer it only at 25 bucks a pull. Would it kill them to put in one bank of .25/.50/$1 VP games with a decent pay table?

Lifted from somewhere else: at Wynn's high limit room we saw Jacks or Better that pays out 99.54% for $5 games while the quarter game paid out about 97%. While not a large difference, it's still a difference ...