Fast Fours
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9 members have voted
On the same machine I saw Red Black Double Double Bonus Poker I saw another new game to me -- Fast Fours.
The idea is the same as Quick Quads, except the player doesn't have to put of a sixth coin to invoke the feature. The downside is that the pay tables are depressed to pay for it.
Please check out my new Fast Fours page for the details. As always, I welcome questions, comments, and especially corrections.
The question for the poll is would you play Fast Fours, given the same return as conventional video poker?
With a 92% return, I can't imagine how much people are giving up that don't know proper strategy or have a good idea of how to play it. I know a bit about QQ so figured I wasn't giving up much using a similar strategy......but I'm sure there are plenty of people who see "hit more four of a kinds!", decide to play the game, not knowing it has the QQ feature thingie.
Quote: WizardFast Fours is a video poker variation I noticed at the Hard Rock in Las Vegas on April 5, 2016. It was on an old machine, so I speculate the game has been around for a while and has somehow escaped my notice previously. The humdinger to the game is much like as Quick Quads, which is that if the player has a three of a kind hand such as 8-8-8-5-3, and the two singletons add up to the rank of the three of a kind, then it is scored as a four of a kind. As in Quick Quads, aces count as one point, 2-10 as pip value, and any face cards don't play a part. The difference is that in Quick Quads the player must pay a sixth coin to invoke the feature. In Fast Fours you don't, but the pay table is depressed to pay for it.
Looking at this though:
Jacks = 11, Queens = 12, and Kings = 13 DO count toward "fast fours". So KKKJ2 (11+2=13) would be considered a quad. If you didn't count these in the calculation, 92% makes more sense and that's what I got when I put the paytable into the Quick Quads calculator. :(
I don't like the concept. People will obviously confuse it with quick quads. :( And the horrid looking paytable will keep players away considering almost every VP "gimmick" game in the last decade has required extra coins to play.
Quote: tringlomaneLooking at this though:
Jacks = 11, Queens = 12, and Kings = 13 DO count toward "fast fours". So KKKJ2 (11+2=13) would be considered a quad. If you didn't count these in the calculation, 92% makes more sense and that's what I got when I put the paytable into the Quick Quads calculator. :(
I don't like the concept. People will obviously confuse it with quick quads. :( And the horrid looking paytable will keep players away considering almost every VP "gimmick" game in the last decade has required extra coins to play.
You're absolutely right. Thank you for the correction. I obviously confused it with Quick Quads too. I will have to write some new code for this game.
Please talk about something else until I post an update. May I suggest discussing whether Adam had a wife Lilith before Eve. Hopefully Teddys will come along to moderate the discussion.
Quote: GWAEShe is hot or maybe I am partial to any naked boobs.
Maybe that is why god got rid of her and replaced her with Eve.
In other news, I wrote up some Fast Fours code. For the Double Bonus game I get a return of 96.69%, which sounds reasonable for a 5-cent game.
Quote: Wizard
In other news, I wrote up some Fast Fours code. For the Double Bonus game I get a return of 96.69%, which sounds reasonable for a 5-cent game.
Yeah, that sounds a lot closer to me. Definitely would try it for a bit at nickels to get a "Fast Four". I am doubt they'll outdo the guy that yells "Quick Quad!" though. haha
Why are so many of the new games set at such low returns? They would get much more play at 99% than 95%, and I am sure most people would be playing them badly, especially a game like this or Peek Poker.
Quote: 3for3Wizard:
Why are so many of the new games set at such low returns? They would get much more play at 99% than 95%, and I am sure most people would be playing them badly, especially a game like this or Peek Poker.
99.73% of VP players have no idea about the payback percentage. They just see a game they like and play, regardless of the pay table.
Quote: 3for3Wizard:
Why are so many of the new games set at such low returns? They would get much more play at 99% than 95%, and I am sure most people would be playing them badly, especially a game like this or Peek Poker.
Do you believe they would get 5x the amount of $$$ action at 99% as opposed to 95%? I ask because that is how much would be required, all else equal, for the two machines to generate the same $$$ revenue for the House.
The people who know how badly a machine pays aren't typically the ones making the mistakes, so it's not like a 95% theoretical game actually returns 95%, either.
7/5 DDB
9/6 DB
6/4 BP
(The balance of the paytables are the same as the ones you show on your website)
There is also a FF JOB
1-2-2-4-5-7-20-50-800
I assume all of these are in the upper 97% range, and I'm guessing 9/6DB is the best of the bunch (based on the fact that the 6th coin on the flush on DDB QQ make a big difference on the return; however since the 5-K is worth so much less than in QQ, maybe the impact isn't as significant as I am hoping). Depending upon what the returns are, I might be interested in asking for assistance in generating a strategy. I'm assuming there could be some interesting holds like:
- AKQ off-suit
- AQJ off-suit
- AJT off-suit
- Suited "Fast Pairs" such as KT3, QT2
Thank you.
Thanks to the Wizard for making the hand analyzer tool able to work for Quick Quads. It's made generating the Fast Fours strategy much more manageable than going completely from scratch. Unfortunately I haven't had time to calculate the return, if anyone has an easier way to do that with software rather than by hand it would be greatly appreciated.
Quote: vpplayer2016I saw Fast Fours recently at a casino near me. Could you calculate the returns of a few other paytables please?:
7/5 DDB
9/6 DB
6/4 BP
(The balance of the paytables are the same as the ones you show on your website)
There is also a FF JOB
1-2-2-4-5-7-20-50-800
I assume all of these are in the upper 97% range, and I'm guessing 9/6DB is the best of the bunch (based on the fact that the 6th coin on the flush on DDB QQ make a big difference on the return; however since the 5-K is worth so much less than in QQ, maybe the impact isn't as significant as I am hoping). Depending upon what the returns are, I might be interested in asking for assistance in generating a strategy. I'm assuming there could be some interesting holds like:
- AKQ off-suit
- AQJ off-suit
- AJT off-suit
- Suited "Fast Pairs" such as KT3, QT2
Thank you.
Here you go:
7/5 DDB 0.97559997818041
9/6 DB 0.97817056061114
6/4 BP 0.97775799492313
1-2-2-4-5-7-20-50-800 JOB 0.97450991462082
6/5 Bonus
8/5 Bonus Poker Deluxe
9/6/5 DB
8/5 DDB
8/5 JOB
In another post on Deuces Double Double Bonus, I made a serious error. The WRF is 100 not 125 for 5 or 6 coins.
This game is the same as 800-200-20-12-10-4-4-3-2-1 Deuces for 1-5 coins. The sixth coin pays 6 on 3 of a kind but all other hands pay like the 5 coin pay table. The sixth coin also pays all natural quads somewhat like DDB (4 natural aces + low 2000, 4 natural aces + no low 1000, 4 natural threes or fours + low 1000, four natural threes or fours + no low 500 and 4 natural fives through kings 250. Note: all these would have to be divided by 6 to get the one coin equivalent.)
These games are on the same machines as Atomic Fever, Dice Fever and a bunch of other weird games.
Thank You "Wizard" for your excellent tools and articles that let me analyze all the other games on this bank.
Howard W. Stern
pyiddy
Quote: pyiddySorry but I need a few more Fast Four pay tables looked at. I am the vpfree2 monitor for the Majestic Star (Gary IN) and some of these pay tables are 99%+ so I would need to add them to the vpfree2 database.
6/5 Bonus
8/5 Bonus Poker Deluxe
9/6/5 DB
8/5 DDB
8/5 JOB
Howard W. Stern
pyiddy
I'm hoping the Wizard weighs-in. My calculations show:
6/5 Bonus 0.98809462567812
9/6/5 DB 0.99279601637005
8/5 DDB 0.98504256152201
8/5 JOB 0.98501352022275
As for Bonus Deluxe, can you provide the entire pay-table. 8/5 seems too lucrative given the other usual payouts on top of the Fast Fours feature.
I posted revised results in that thread. What is this game called on the machine???Quote: pyiddyIn another post on Deuces Double Double Bonus, I made a serious error. The WRF is 100 not 125 for 5 or 6 coins.
This game is the same as 800-200-20-12-10-4-4-3-2-1 Deuces for 1-5 coins. The sixth coin pays 6 on 3 of a kind but all other hands pay like the 5 coin pay table. The sixth coin also pays all natural quads somewhat like DDB (4 natural aces + low 2000, 4 natural aces + no low 1000, 4 natural threes or fours + low 1000, four natural threes or fours + no low 500 and 4 natural fives through kings 250. Note: all these would have to be divided by 6 to get the one coin equivalent.)
These games are on the same machines as Atomic Fever, Dice Fever and a bunch of other weird games.
Thank You "Wizard" for your excellent tools and articles that let me analyze all the other games on this bank.
Howard W. Stern
pyiddy
Thank You again. I will see if vpfree2 wants to add this pay table to their database.
Howard W Stern
pyiddy
Quote: pyiddyI did not look carefully yesterday at this. The quads on BP deluxe are less than 80 but I do not remember what they are. I will look again the next time I am there.
I want to say they are only 35 (lol) because I tried the game. 80 for quick quads is impossible for Bonus Deluxe if the casino wants to make money. The wizard didn't calculate this version though so I can't estimate. And I echo what DDB says, thanks for monitoring Majestic Star/Rives in GREAT detail. Arguably the best VPFree2 listings in the entire country!!!
Quote: tringlomaneI want to say they are only 35 (lol) because I tried the game.
If it is 35, then the EV would be: 1.0563590503531
(That is, with payouts of 800-50-35-8-5-4-3-1-1)
I'm guessing it is closer to 25 or else some other payout must be lower.
800-50-35-8-5-4-2-1-1 EV=0.99157797083374 STD=5.2877630792757
800-50-35-7-5-4-2-1-1 EV=0.98256403464985 STD=5.3005654342368
800-50-35-6-5-4-2-1-1 EV=0.9739116732406 STD=5.2983956558092
So, tringlomane was correct on the 35 payout for quads!
