New to Video Poker, where to start

I've recently taken an interest in video poker, and would like to learn a little bit. A few questions first. I see that some of the games have a return of 99.something% or something, does that mean even perfect players are playing with -EV? Are we just trying to minimize losses while maximizing comps? Is all of video poker a comp hustle? Either way, I'm still interested.

Does anyone have a game/method they recommend I learn? Is there a good iPhone app that can coach me on plays? Is there a typical game/pay table that is very common that would be a good starting point?

Of course I'd like to start with as much free material before I put any money into this. I'd like to get a feel for it before I decided if this is something I'm interested in or not.

Hey Mage! Video poker can actually be fairly fun, but hopefully fairly profitable =).

Right out the gate, almost all VP machines you ever come across have a built in house edge, just like every other game in the casino. In fact, most VP machines have horrible pay tables which result in 96%-98% paybacks =/. The ones you're referring to are the better games, such as 9-6 Jacks or Better (JoB), which has a payback of 99.54%. This means for every $100 in action you put through the machine, you can expect to get back $99.54 in the long run.

A good starting point for anyone interested in Video poker is the following (in my opinion):

1) Learn JoB strategy, which can be found on the Wizard's odds site.
2) Learn Deuces Wild strategy, which can be found on the Wizard's odds site.
3) Lean about pay tables, and which ones are the best and make for the best games. The Wizard also has a video poker calculator/analyzer on his odds site

The reason VP can be profitable to the players is because of Free Play, extra point days (since points can be accumulated and turned in to free play), other promotions, etc.

One other reason is every now and then you'll find "Full Pay" machines.... Full Pay Deuces Wild is 100.7% payback. So yes, with perfect play, you're playing with a small advantage. Same goes for some of the other games such as Full Pay Double Bonus I've played, etc. Again, all of these percentages can be known using the Wizards calculator/analyzer.

Lastly, you'll want to obviously learn PERFECT strategy. To get it 100% perfect will take some time and study, but there are PLENTY of apps/etc that will tell you when you make a strategy mistake. Just type Video Poker Trainer in anywhere... or again, I believe the Wizard's odds site has that too ;-).

Summary - Go to www.wizardofodds.com =P

I nominated Romes for POTUS a few months back, you might remember.
Infinite patience was a character trait that impressed me.
My country needs a bunch.
Another debate tonight.....
Can I second the nomination, or can someone help me out here ?

I appreciate the nomination 2F... I'd love to accept and run with Bill Nye or Neil Degrasse Tyson as my running mate.

Sadly, I think we'll be underfunded and ignored =/.

I do honestly have a real non-joking plan that would 100% guaranteed fix our budget...

Thanks Romes. That's a great help of where to start. Is there any data anywhere regarding recommended bankrolls, RoR and potential EV? I'm a blackjack player, so there's gobs of data published everywhere about the potential earnings. If free plays is the main source of income, it sounds like this is a much longer/slower play with much more variance.

Also, it looks like the wizard's iPhone app is $10. I'd be happy to buy it, but just in case I don't enjoy VP... Does anybody have a good free trainer to start with?

Quote: Romes

I appreciate the nomination 2F... I'd love to accept and run with Bill Nye or Neil Degrasse Tyson as my running mate.

Sadly, I think we'll be underfunded and ignored =/.

I do honestly have a real non-joking plan that would 100% guaranteed fix our budget...

Ordinarilly you would wait for the 'party designate' title before picking a running mate.
(Hint, get Trump, lots a moolah!)
But I may be standing in the shadow of a giant.
I am speechless ( almost ;-)
We still need a damn 'second' on my original nomination? Anyone?

Ah, I just found some good information on the wizard's website. Helpful for RoR and bankroll size stuff.

Still in search of a good iPhone app, as I do a lot of my training as I wake up/fall asleep and sit on the toilet....

Does VP require a good understanding of casino slot club rewards? Do casino's typically publicize these?

I suggest:

Pick a game to learn. Jacks or better, deuces wild, double double bonus; worth having those 3 in your wheelhouse, at least.

Go to the Wizard's VP strategy calculator and plug in the game and pay table you want to learn.

Let that run in the background.

Go to videopoker.com and select that game. (You might need to do this first, to see which paytable they're offering on what you're practicing. You'll want to be accurate setting the numbers for the WoO calculator.) Runs fine on an android tablet; haven't tried it on a phone.

Play it until you don't even have to think about your selections, referring constantly to WoO paytable you have open until you get it memorized. The thing about that site is, they get all the good IGT games just as you find them in the casinos, same software, same look. IGT doesn't distribute EVERY VP game, but they have the great majority.

The Wizard also has a hand analyzer, where you can plug in a difficult hand if you need to, but I think his strategy calculator covers nearly everything, and it also generates rare exception hands that appear below the strategy table.

Once you've got one strategy cold, start over with another. Rinse and repeat.

The best place to make money on VP as far as I can see are good promotions, like multiple point days and such. Most places will convert points to freeplay, as well as providing comps. So promotions and comps are where you make a lot of the money.

Awesome. Thanks for the help everyone. Glad to see an internet forum not full of angry people...

As a blackjack player, I'm making about $50/hr, and it sounds like making that much is tough through VP. However VP may be a good way to get myself some comps (rooms mostly), and then play unrated at the tables or nearby casinos.

Also, learning a new skill always keeps my mind fresh and curious. :D

As a side note, it feels like VP poker has an easier learning curve? It seems I can learn a large portion of the strategy very quickly, and the last few odd hands are what's left to learn. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It sounds like this would be a good game to recommend to friends of mine who want to dip their toes into AP or break even play.

You've got the idea ;)... VP for rooms/free play and other games at the non-affiliated places next door.

In my opinion, coming from blackjack as well? VP was pretty easy to pick up. A fair amount of the plays are intuitive and yes you can learn the good portion of the strategy quite quickly... However, if you plan to slam some full pay machines you need to be making sure you have the strategy down 100%. Otherwise you're not playing the full advantage.

There's other advantages in VP too, that can make your hourly EV 10x that of your posted blackjack EV. Keep digging around :). They're rare, but another weapon to add to the arsonel.

Land, air, and sea... Table games, VP, and slots... All are beatable and the complete AP has plays on them all!

Vulturing is the easiest thing to teach friends about AP, though I wouldn't suggest it as then there's no more mults for the rest of us!

I had the best luck learning JOB first. Its an easy strategy and most of the bonus variants are just slightly altered strategies of JOB. I also have the best luck training with the videopoker.com app. You can purchase all the games for a slight fee and the trainer will alert you when you make a mistake. I have had better luck letting the apps condition me to the correct strategy rather than trying to read it. They also have an app that has all the paytables and payback percentages so you can know exactly the hold of each machine you run into.

Quote: brettecantwell

I had the best luck learning JOB first. Its an easy strategy and most of the bonus variants are just slightly altered strategies of JOB. I also have the best luck training with the videopoker.com app. You can purchase all the games for a slight fee and the trainer will alert you when you make a mistake. I have had better luck letting the apps condition me to the correct strategy rather than trying to read it. They also have an app that has all the paytables and payback percentages so you can know exactly the hold of each machine you run into.

Everybody learns differently, so if the VP trainer works for you, great (I agree it's a very useful app). Where it fails me is, on a for-money casino game, you will not get those prompts, and you have to infer the patterns and priorities for yourself through random examples. The wizard's strategy generator ranks specific cases for you (a rough example is, in most games you hold 4 to a flush over a small pair over 4 to an outside straight over a single face) and so those are already identified for you, then you dig deeper into where, say 3 to a SF fits in that sequence. I improve a little in the details every time I refer back to those specific rankings. And in the casino, because I'm running down the strategy sequence, I can make my draws as soon as I hit the first qualifying combination rather than having to contrast my choices.

The other beauty of the Wizard's tables is that you can put in the pay table of the game you're actually playing, which changes some of the strategy. The VP.com games have mostly best available pay tables (IMO for advertising to likely players) but most of the casinos don't offer them. So if you're going to play for serious money, you can scout the casino for your best pay tables, then input those values, and have truly optimal strategy to consult, not just general.

JMHO.

Was there or is there a way to change the pay tables lower on videopoker.com? I am on gold membership through exchanging points and can't find it.

Just from starting on wizardofodds.com site using the simple strategies for job and ddb, pretty accurate to my tastes with the default paytables. Deuces I pretty much stink at, but do ok with educated guesses, but not great. Haven't practiced much either, so there's that. Overall, know what I know, but don't know what I don't know.

The wiz's video poker calculator works now on this phone I have now, but I think it gets cut off even with the phone sideways. It's a Microsoft Windows phone if anyone has tips for me on this view problem. I have tried the book icon.

So the biggest question is the paytable changing option on the site. I want to practice the nuances of less than full pay since there are no full pay machines around here.

So far, supposedly some games allow the pay tables to be changed, but I haven't found them. Training mode isn't available for every game and specifically not for ultimate x. I always assumed every game would have training and ultimate x in particular. So people want to learn, but the site doesn't facilitate that. I thought gold membership would help me become semi-competent where I need it, and disappointed they're not offering it.